The Empire Strikes Back - Empire Victory

[triggercut]

DUH. He completely trusted you before you said, "I am Empire, obviously." No, we have not forgotten, Naru TriggerGun. Keep on trying to deceive us.

So hang me.

[triggercut]

Fuck it. Let's see:

 Grundbegriff 
 


I've already made one dumb play today, let's do another.

[El Guapo]

Back on the more interesting topic of Grund's mystery scan. First, Grund's whole approach here is perplexing, and puts yet another notch into the suspicion column. "Whether X is rebel or not" is very useful information to us. Whether we have any protocol droids around is much less useful. As to "but he'll be trusted and doooooomed!" - first, given the suspicion on Grund, he would not be trusted, at least not while Grund remains alive. Second, once he is trusted he becomes a target, but I'd rather have a 100% trusted person with a shelf life than a bunch of people I don't trust. Plus with the Empire not knowing whether Joe Schmoe is a special or not, and given the Qui Gon shuffle that they have to concern themselves with, it's certainly possible that they make it at least a couple days, and a couple days with a trusted is invaluable. After all, Talon Karrde has supposedly survived the night, right?

But aside from another question mark on Grund that's a moot point now, because now Grund can't reveal that without outing the special.

But playing Grund's game for the moment as to what Grund should reveal given what's been said so far, as has been noted already if you identified a special that conflicts with an outstanding claim, obviously that should be revealed. So if Yoda or Wedge are not who they say they are, obviously say so, but then since Grund isn't dumb I am assuming that he would have already done so (if not, trig, please slap him when you do coffee with him). Beyond that, if Mon Mothma is still alive that would actually be useful information.

Aside from that..... my inclination is sure, more information tends to help, so it'd be marginally useful to know what other role may or may not be out there. Kind of meh as you say, but better to have the information than not I think.

[El Guapo]

Fuck it. Let's see:

 Grundbegriff 
 


I've already made one dumb play today, let's do another.

I am curious what you consider your dumb play today.

[triggercut]

My vote is on Grundbegriff. I have about an 80% expectation that he'll come back as a Rebel, but them's the breaks.

I think that theohall--from his "I was posting on another forum" nonsense on day 1 to his referring to his alleged teammates as "the rebels" just a minute ago is either doing this amazing thing where he plays poorly as a rebel (which hurts his team) or poorly as Empire (which seems to be working out well so far for him). Either way, he's been illogical, and then shrill and foolish when called on his oddness. It is what it is.

That said, if you put a light saber to my throat and asked me to name one Empire player out of the bunch, I think I have my answer, but the evidence is extremely circumstantial and I have no hope of getting anyone to buy in on anything I say anyway--right now (wait until death proves me, then refer back.)

I think ElGuapo is Empire. I think that more than 50/50 in fact.

[El Guapo]

Frankly it's baffling that Grund (and trig) is raising the Mortis - Wedge thing now. Not that Mortis' sudden claim on Wedge wasn't odd, or that it can't be questioned. But it was questioned - it was beaten into the ground much like everything is in this never ending thread back when Mortis claimed it back in 2009, or whenever it was that this game started. So, now when the day starts with Grund in the crosshairs, with eyes on "is Grund really the seer? Who will he assert to have scanned? Will he claim them imperial?" Grund decides first to wax poetic on the topic of what in general is sensible to reveal, and then "oh hey, what's this, Mortis claimed Wedge?? Let's talk a lot about that, since we never did that before!"

Next is the oddity that either Grund or trig appear to have given their log-on to the other person. Honestly, have you guys disagreed on anything this game since day 1? "Oh Grund, YOU didn't realize that Mortis wasn't joking either? What a funny coincidence! I couldn't agree more with your Wedge skepticism. We really must do coffee sometime."

I'm still waiting for Unagi to tell me what Grundbegriff has done to make his seem like he's Empire.

And then I have questions for you later.

He did reply to that with his list of reasons, in case you missed it. Or was that rhetorical just to assert that you do not find his reasons convincing?

And I am always happy to answer questions.

[triggercut]

Fuck it. Let's see:

 Grundbegriff 
 


I've already made one dumb play today, let's do another.

I am curious what you consider your dumb play today.

Sorry, should have said "this game." Put it on my list.

[El Guapo]

It's "El Guapo" - there's a space in there.

I will add that theo is awfully repetitive. I get it, Trig posted "I am empire". It creates suspicion, we know.

[El Guapo]

I may have been a little snippy out of the gate on day 3. I guess that's what 70 pages will do.

But doing what I can to keep us on topic. I don't see much harm in Grund revealing the role he found but not the person, and some marginal gain. I don't think I've heard any objections to that so far, so Grund, if you would...

[Unagi]

Maybe it was just a weird and oddball play.

Or even, gasp, understandable. Seriosuly. It's not like it's that odd or weird,

Really? It isn't? Having a player with a one-time use power essentially discharge that power into the air isn't odd? It isn't weird?

I didn't notice any airborne discharge, but thanks for the heads-up.

and I'm not going to debate the quality of the play, like I said - that's just how one feels about the play... I'm talking about credibility, and yes, I could be wrong - but I don't feel that I am.

[triggercut]

Make your case against Grundbegriff. What's he done to suggest that he's not Talon Karrde?

(I just gotta mention this, you seem to be shoulder-to-shoulder with Grund, and that really isn't helping me feel better about either of you.)

Also, I will not list the reasons he is not Talon Karrde, that's not really the entire point.
(What, seriously, do you have against testing this seer?? How many times have we done this?)

The Case Why We Should Test Grund:

He named a player "rebel" whom later made a few slips that look bad. (You can disregard this point)
He avoided being shot.
He avoided being lynched.
He avoided being killed overnight.
He came out this morning and declared that he found a Special.
He came out this morning and debated just giving us the role of the scan, not the player's name. (not sure if you can see this, but from my Good Guy chair - that's really quite useless)
We would learn a little perhaps about Remus?
We would learn a little perhaps about Theohall?


Why We Should Not Test Grund:
He is the uncontested Seer and may just keep giving us more scans that we can eventually trust or toss. 2 is nice, but wouldn't 3 or 4 or 5 be better?
We can join Scoop and get on with the Detective Work of noodling out Imperials.


I'll give you the chance, if you want - to add more things to that list. Or either list, for that matter.

Ok, just saw this. Let's take your reasons to test Grund, putting the first aside as a given:

1. He avoided being shot.
Of course he did. Players who were either on Grund's vote or not fully expected from about 4:00pm EDT to 8:00pm EDT that Grundbegriff was surely going to hang on purge's action.

Question for Unagi: Since all Empire shooting powers reveal the name of the person doing the firing, why would someone from the Empire shoot Grundbegriff?

2. He avoided being lynched.

Yes, he did. So did 21 other players, did they not? So did you, at the same vote count, correct? Does this point not make you just as strong a candidate to swing?

3. He avoided being killed overnight.

Of course he did. Any smart rebel player would have seen that pretty clearly Grund, purge, and myself especially were not going to be targeted at night, not with so much of the Rebel team playing the way they have been. purge survived the night, too, did he not? No one's been more loud in calling for Grund to swing than you or theo or Remus, and yet you're all still alive, correct?

On point 4, I agree that it is suspicious. I'd also submit that by not returning a badguy he was damned in any measure. Had he just said "so and so is good" without role, I have little faith that most would have been of sound enough mind to seize upon that nuance, for instance.

On point 5, I think that it's suspicious, not useless. It's the best case for hanging Grund. His reveal of a role helps the badguys as much as the goodguys. See point 1: want to know why they haven't shot--setting aside the fact that they don't need to? Were I empire and Grund really was Talon, I'd LOVE to hear which role was definitely in the game from him.

As for what Grund tells us about Remus and theo, I certainly do think it will say something along those lines.

[Grundbegriff]

You're far too interested in outing Rebels and then reducing our number.

Outing Rebels?

Isn't that our (Rebel) goal? Otherwise, how exactly do we win?

The Imperials already know the Rebels. We don't.

Again, you're ignoring the importance of reducing the pool of lynch candidates.

I'm starting to think you might be Good after all.

[Unagi]

The facts here are that (if you are truly Talon), you are not only in danger of a night kill,

Anyone playing this game intelligently knows this to be inherently false. If Grundbegriff is Talon, the Imperials are going to be inclined to wait him out. If they kill him at night, they confirm his identity and verify his scans....

Heh, yeah, instead they will let him get more and more and more scans until he's eventually killed and then - damn - look at all those great scans we can trust. (/sarcasm)

Trigg. I'm sorry but you can't really argue that the Seer isn't a number 1 kill priority for the wolf team. Maybe, MAYBE - if there is a Seer and a Fake-Seer, they would let them both live, just to keep the 'Fake-Seer' an open option, but we are not looking at that at all.

They let him live. Now we have "Triggercut AND Bubba".
Tomorrow - "Triggercut, Bubba, and Bilbo"

c'mon.

[Grundbegriff]

Why do you have an open mind to some things and then you just present this absolute dismissal defense around like it has any real value.

That's a question that could be directed at many people here, not least among them you!

[Grundbegriff]

Of course, I'm not saying that LM is lying. I'm saying that he's either lying or incompetent or unsupportive of his team. To me, that doesn't yield benefit of the doubt. It looks screwy.

You've been counting me as among the most evil all game. Don't hedge now. I may be incompetent but you're playing like you are evil and pulling strings

You haven't seen the half of it, Wedgie.

Are you really playing the best for the rebels this way?

You betcha!

[Grundbegriff]

The way I see it now..If we lynch Grund, then we find out if we can trust Triggercut. And maybe Grund will tell us the second person he scanned, if we are so lucky as to be deemed worthy.

I am sorry I didn't vote for you last turn

 Grund 
 

Wow. You're not even a weenie bit curious about my scan?

[Grundbegriff]

I don't know which to believe, but I now believe Grund to be Empire I could see him hatching that plan and then arguing against it in public.

Thank you. I appreciate the compliment, misguided though your Rebeldar may be.

[Unagi]

Question for Unagi: Since all Empire shooting powers reveal the name of the person doing the firing, why would someone from the Empire shoot Grundbegriff?

Answer for triggercut: I guess my thought was that they would be OK to lose "XXX" if Grund was the Seer, since the Seer can also come forth and declare that he found one of them.
Is your premise that they would never dare shoot the Seer that quickly?
The longer they wait, the more 'totally trustable scans' the Seer will have given them.

Maybe "never", but IF {Ever} - I would think Right Away. Wolves would want to minimize the number of scans we all can trust when the Seer is eventually revealed as Good.

Is that not right?

[Grundbegriff]

Frankly it's baffling that Grund (and trig) is raising the Mortis - Wedge thing now. Not that Mortis' sudden claim on Wedge wasn't odd, or that it can't be questioned. But it was questioned - it was beaten into the ground much like everything is in this never ending thread back when Mortis claimed it back in 2009, or whenever it was that this game started. So, now when the day starts with Grund in the crosshairs, with eyes on "is Grund really the seer? Who will he assert to have scanned? Will he claim them imperial?" Grund decides first to wax poetic on the topic of what in general is sensible to reveal, and then "oh hey, what's this, Mortis claimed Wedge?? Let's talk a lot about that, since we never did that before!"

In truth, I skim LordMortis's posts and the interactions with him-- especially when we're approaching 60 pages and I'm pressed for time. I sort of take them as "read into the record" and go back to them if prompted. So I missed the overt claim to wedginess.

What turned my attention to him was Chaosraven's comments, first here, then here.

Next is the oddity that either Grund or trig appear to have given their log-on to the other person. Honestly, have you guys disagreed on anything this game since day 1?

At first, I thought triggercut was being a bit strident because he was evil. After scanning him, I learned that he was being that way because he has nothing to lose-- he's in the Very Best Role.

[Grundbegriff]

Fuck it. Let's see:

 Grundbegriff 
 


I've already made one dumb play today, let's do another.

You don't want to do that. I have another card to play.

[Grundbegriff]

But this is probably too simple for the Rebels and they will keep on listening to the Imperials who are trying to stop this from happening.

[Unagi]

Frankly it's baffling that Grund (and trig) is raising the Mortis - Wedge thing now. Not that Mortis' sudden claim on Wedge wasn't odd, or that it can't be questioned. But it was questioned - it was beaten into the ground much like everything is in this never ending thread back when Mortis claimed it back in 2009, or whenever it was that this game started. So, now when the day starts with Grund in the crosshairs, with eyes on "is Grund really the seer? Who will he assert to have scanned? Will he claim them imperial?" Grund decides first to wax poetic on the topic of what in general is sensible to reveal, and then "oh hey, what's this, Mortis claimed Wedge?? Let's talk a lot about that, since we never did that before!"

Next is the oddity that either Grund or trig appear to have given their log-on to the other person. Honestly, have you guys disagreed on anything this game since day 1? "Oh Grund, YOU didn't realize that Mortis wasn't joking either? What a funny coincidence! I couldn't agree more with your Wedge skepticism. We really must do coffee sometime."

Nail On The Head

[Grundbegriff]

I think ElGuapo is Empire. I think that more than 50/50 in fact.

I don't see it. He's playing with clarity, but not that smirky, evil sort of clarity.

[Grundbegriff]

I'm very interested in what coopasonic, Chaosraven, and Remus West have to say at this juncture.

[triggercut]

But this is probably too simple for the Rebels and they will keep on listening to the Imperials who are trying to stop this from happening.

Noted for the third time.

[triggercut]

I think ElGuapo is Empire. I think that more than 50/50 in fact.

I don't see it. He's playing with clarity, but not that smirky, evil sort of clarity.

Just a gut feeling. If I were on Team Empire and wanted to take out a target likely unprotected, but of higher profile than Jow, I think it would have been El Guapo.

That he's alive today seems far more curious than you or I or purge being alive.

Perhaps my radar needs recalibration, but there you go.

[El Guapo]

Frankly it's baffling that Grund (and trig) is raising the Mortis - Wedge thing now. Not that Mortis' sudden claim on Wedge wasn't odd, or that it can't be questioned. But it was questioned - it was beaten into the ground much like everything is in this never ending thread back when Mortis claimed it back in 2009, or whenever it was that this game started. So, now when the day starts with Grund in the crosshairs, with eyes on "is Grund really the seer? Who will he assert to have scanned? Will he claim them imperial?" Grund decides first to wax poetic on the topic of what in general is sensible to reveal, and then "oh hey, what's this, Mortis claimed Wedge?? Let's talk a lot about that, since we never did that before!"

In truth, I skim LordMortis's posts and the interactions with him-- especially when we're approaching 60 pages and I'm pressed for time. I sort of take them as "read into the record" and go back to them if prompted. So I missed the overt claim to wedginess.

What turned my attention to him was Chaosraven's comments, first here, then here.

I think it totally plausible that one might skim / pass over / not give much thought to any post in this thread. What I find odd is that there was then a very substantial discussion about Mortis' claim and the wisdom thereof. THAT is why I find it odd that you (and to a lesser degree Trig) are now all "wait what???" on Mortis' claim.

[Grundbegriff]

I think ElGuapo is Empire. I think that more than 50/50 in fact.

I don't see it. He's playing with clarity, but not that smirky, evil sort of clarity.

Just a gut feeling. If I were on Team Empire and wanted to take out a target likely unprotected, but of higher profile than Jow, I think it would have been El Guapo.

Dunno. With 20+ people to choose from, I'm not sure the criteria are all that clear.

That he's alive today seems far more curious than you or I or purge being alive.

You really reckon he was that conspicuous a target? I'm sort of seeing him as just another face in the crowd. Take a gander at the roster, and note how many people are just... lurking.

[Scoop20906]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

[Grundbegriff]

I think it totally plausible that one might skim / pass over / not give much thought to any post in this thread. What I find odd is that there was then a very substantial discussion about Mortis' claim and the wisdom thereof. THAT is why I find it odd that you (and to a lesser degree Trig) are now all "wait what???" on Mortis' claim.

I guess that's odd. I didn't have a crystal clear sense of Wedge in mind when I skimmed the LordMortis stuff. Forcing myself to make an inventory of Good and Evil powers sort of brought the logical problem into focus.

[Remus West]

That's the point of saying you "scanned Bubba, he is not an Imp" and nothing more . And, you know this.

Saying only "I found a Rebel" without any more texture than that would look fake or feeble. I want to give something concrete that people can invest their beliefs and reasoning in.

You see, I'd like us to win. And for all the noise and fog and obfuscation and flocculence, it all comes down to knowledge.

So, let in order for us (and by us here I assume you are implying Rebel and not Imperial in spite of the current train of your actions) to win you are creating MORE noise and fog and obfuscation?

I'll keep reading until I get caught up but I have a feeling my vote is going right back where it was yesterday. This is not "good" grundbegriff.

[Unagi]

Why do you have an open mind to some things and then you just present this absolute dismissal defense around like it has any real value.

That's a question that could be directed at many people here, not least among them you!

Fair enough. and likely spot on.

But still, you're better than us. How are we to rise above that if you aren't.

[triggercut]

Frankly it's baffling that Grund (and trig) is raising the Mortis - Wedge thing now. Not that Mortis' sudden claim on Wedge wasn't odd, or that it can't be questioned. But it was questioned - it was beaten into the ground much like everything is in this never ending thread back when Mortis claimed it back in 2009, or whenever it was that this game started. So, now when the day starts with Grund in the crosshairs, with eyes on "is Grund really the seer? Who will he assert to have scanned? Will he claim them imperial?" Grund decides first to wax poetic on the topic of what in general is sensible to reveal, and then "oh hey, what's this, Mortis claimed Wedge?? Let's talk a lot about that, since we never did that before!"

In truth, I skim LordMortis's posts and the interactions with him-- especially when we're approaching 60 pages and I'm pressed for time. I sort of take them as "read into the record" and go back to them if prompted. So I missed the overt claim to wedginess.

What turned my attention to him was Chaosraven's comments, first here, then here.

I think it totally plausible that one might skim / pass over / not give much thought to any post in this thread. What I find odd is that there was then a very substantial discussion about Mortis' claim and the wisdom thereof. THAT is why I find it odd that you (and to a lesser degree Trig) are now all "wait what???" on Mortis' claim.

Same boat, sort of. During that day that Mortis made that claim I was pretty busy, and while reading forward saw that Grund had claimed to be Talon.

"Why, I think I can perhaps give some verification to that. Let me make a post to that effect, and I'll keep on reading then."

The rest, as they say, is history...I think I may have heard some reference to his claim in a joking manner and was thus vaguely aware that something like that had happened, but didn't see that it was really a claim until tonight.

As for why all the discussion--I cannot be the only person who has noticed that Unagi and LordMortis are joined at the hip this game, all "hail fellow, well-met" to one another again and again. It's been like watching Josey Wales drag the mortally wounded Jamie across half of Missouri in here.

[Grundbegriff]

Why do you have an open mind to some things and then you just present this absolute dismissal defense around like it has any real value.

That's a question that could be directed at many people here, not least among them you!

Fair enough. and likely spot on.

But still, you're better than us. How are we to rise above that if you aren't.

Quite a pickle!

[coopasonic]

I'm very interested in what coopasonic, Chaosraven, and Remus West have to say at this juncture.

Just caught up and all I have to say at this point is I *really* don't trust the grund that has been posting this evening.

I'm also beyond tired of theo pointing and shouting about trig. He's overplaying it.

I'm still annoyed at Isgrimnur's vote withdrawal.

purge is obnoxious and overconfident, but that's exactly how he was last game too. His evasion of the grund lynch still bothers me.

LM's claim was a waste if he is really wedge. On the other hand it was a huge risk for no gain if he isn't wedge.

Everyone else is a mystery/under my radar. 4 of those 5 people have one thing in common, the outcome of a grund lynch could tell us something about each of them.

 grundbegriff 
 

[theohall]

That's the point of saying you "scanned Bubba, he is not an Imp" and nothing more . And, you know this.

Saying only "I found a Rebel" without any more texture than that would look fake or feeble. I want to give something concrete that people can invest their beliefs and reasoning in.

You see, I'd like us to win. And for all the noise and fog and obfuscation and flocculence, it all comes down to knowledge.

So, let in order for us (and by us here I assume you are implying Rebel and not Imperial in spite of the current train of your actions) to win you are creating MORE noise and fog and obfuscation?

I'll keep reading until I get caught up but I have a feeling my vote is going right back where it was yesterday. This is not "good" grundbegriff.

Been trying to tell you all this, but no one seems to be listening. A large number of rather good players seem to think listening to Evil Grundbegriff actually has some worth. Still don't get it.

[Scoop20906]

I think we need to get the Name of Grund's Rebel scan and then we use Purge to test Grund.

And I think we need to pick up where we left off, and test you, Unagi.
You're far too interested in outing Rebels and then reducing our number.

Ok, this post confirms my gut feeling that Grund is spoofing Talon. Unagi points out a flaw in Grund's reveal approach and Grund even acknowledges it and he is right back to wanting to test Unagi. I am so glad I stayed off the Unagi vote yesterday.

Guys, this confusion is only going to continue until we resolve the Grund question. He has two scans to give us and if he is good they become mostly trusted by his death and if he is evil they certain go way up to the top of an already crowded threat list.

Without a clear candidate to test today, Grund is the most logical choice because his death has the potential to give us the most proven information.

[Grundbegriff]

Fascinating.

[theohall]

I'm very interested in what coopasonic, Chaosraven, and Remus West have to say at this juncture.

Just caught up and all I have to say at this point is I *really* don't trust the grund that has been posting this evening.

I'm also beyond tired of theo pointing and shouting about trig. He's overplaying it.

I'm still annoyed at Isgrimnur's vote withdrawal.

purge is obnoxious and overconfident, but that's exactly how he was last game too. His evasion of the grund lynch still bothers me.

LM's claim was a waste if he is really wedge. On the other hand it was a huge risk for no gain if he isn't wedge.

Everyone else is a mystery/under my radar. 4 of those 5 people have one thing in common, the outcome of a grund lynch could tell us something about each of them.

 grundbegriff 
 

Please note my vote, coop. It's the three of them - Grund (current vote and last vote), trig, and purge.

[triggercut]

I think ElGuapo is Empire. I think that more than 50/50 in fact.

I don't see it. He's playing with clarity, but not that smirky, evil sort of clarity.

Just a gut feeling. If I were on Team Empire and wanted to take out a target likely unprotected, but of higher profile than Jow, I think it would have been El Guapo.

Dunno. With 20+ people to choose from, I'm not sure the criteria are all that clear.

That he's alive today seems far more curious than you or I or purge being alive.

You really reckon he was that conspicuous a target? I'm sort of seeing him as just another face in the crowd. Take a gander at the roster, and note how many people are just... lurking.

That's just it: he's kind of inconspicuous...but does post and frequently when he's a good guy, he posts smart things. Were I Empire and wanting to kill someone and have that target combine being fairly random and taking out someone of not the highest conspicuousness...and also wanted to take out a valuable Rebel player--I'd have given strong consideration to El Guapo.

Just sayin'.