Game of Thrones - Season 2 Discussion

[Ralph-Wiggum]

The other thing I will always remember is seeing that barrel below the ship... that was full.

Yep - that was a lot of puke.

[Sherpa]

The Hound guy didn't work so well for me. I couldn't really get a read on where he was coming from. I thought at first he was just tired, then chickening out, the maybe rebelling against the king, then what he does at the end...uh, where did THAT come from? His character seemed all over the map and I couldn't figure out why. This is probably one of those times when reading the book would have paid off.

The Hound is deathly afraid of fire... not really a spoiler since he (or was it Littlefinger?) explained it a S1 episode:

Spoiler:

When they were children, his older brother, the Mountain (Gregor Clegane) caught him playing with one of his toys and burned him in the hearth for it -- thus his "pretty" face.

[cheeba]

"Those are brave men knocking at our door... let's go kill them!"

That was very well done. They did a great job of overcoming their budget restrictions. I mean it's painfully obvious that they had one set piece for battle at the wall there and not all that many people. It still felt somewhat epic, though I would have liked some larger establishing shots. The explosion was excellent.

Hate hate hate that there's only 1 episode left.

[Odin]

"Those are brave men knocking at our door... let's go kill them!"

That was very well done. They did a great job of overcoming their budget restrictions. I mean it's painfully obvious that they had one set piece for battle at the wall there and not all that many people.

I actually thought that the charge of the "second wave" of Baratheon forces was the first time we really saw a sizeable force of soldiers. They did a good job of making it look like there was an army there. I think they accomplished it by putting everybody up front and then making it really dark after the first couple of rows.

[gameoverman]

The Hound guy didn't work so well for me. I couldn't really get a read on where he was coming from. I thought at first he was just tired, then chickening out, the maybe rebelling against the king, then what he does at the end...uh, where did THAT come from? His character seemed all over the map and I couldn't figure out why. This is probably one of those times when reading the book would have paid off.

The Hound is deathly afraid of fire... not really a spoiler since he (or was it Littlefinger?) explained it a S1 episode:

Spoiler:

When they were children, his older brother, the Mountain (Gregor Clegane) caught him playing with one of his toys and burned him in the hearth for it -- thus his "pretty" face.

That explains the first part but

Spoiler:

he winds up in the girl's room, why? She was in that other area with the other women. He had no way of knowing he'd ever see her there, since she only went there at the suggestion of someone else.

[Zaxxon]

Spoiler:

That explains the first part but [spoiler]he winds up in the girl's room, why? She was in that other area with the other women. He had no way of knowing he'd ever see her there, since she only went there at the suggestion of someone else.

Spoiler:

He's had a crush on his 'little bird', Sansa, since she arrived in King's Landing. After Clegane ensured he's on Joffrey's shit-list during the battle he has no choice but to leave the city. He was trying to do a good thing and get Sansa out while he could.

[Exodor]

Did we see Salladhor Saan in this episode trying to get into King's Landing and Cersei's pants?

If not what was the point of introducing him in S2Ep2?

[Zaxxon]

Did we see Salladhor Saan in this episode trying to get into King's Landing and Cersei's pants?

You sure as heck saw part of his fleet.

If not what was the point of introducing him in S2Ep2?

Patience, young Padawan.

[Exodor]

Did we see Salladhor Saan in this episode trying to get into King's Landing and Cersei's pants?

You sure as heck saw part of his fleet.

Those were the boats burning with green fire, right?

If not what was the point of introducing him in S2Ep2?

Patience, young Padawan.

Patience!? There's only one episode left this season!

And it will probably be filled with Jon Snow gaping open-mouthed at Iceland and Daenyris whining about FYUH AND BLUD.

[Daveman]

Did we see Salladhor Saan in this episode trying to get into King's Landing and Cersei's pants?

You sure as heck saw part of his fleet.

Those were the boats burning with green fire, right?

My recollection of the book/battle might be failing, but I don't believe Salladhor lost many ships to the fire. I seem to recall Stannis using his ships to assault Kings Landing, leaving Salladhor to secure the bay and make sure no one came sailing up behind him.

[Odin]

Did we see Salladhor Saan in this episode trying to get into King's Landing and Cersei's pants?

You sure as heck saw part of his fleet.

Those were the boats burning with green fire, right?

My recollection of the book/battle might be failing, but I don't believe Salladhor lost many ships to the fire. I seem to recall Stannis using his ships to assault Kings Landing, leaving Salladhor to secure the bay and make sure no one came sailing up behind him.

That's how it was in the books, yes. The series cut out the great chain that Tyrion had raised across the entrance to the bay, cutting off Stannis's ships from Salladhor's and from escape. Saan's ships remained safely out in the Narrow Sea (or at least in the larger part of Blackwater Bay).

[Zaxxon]

Did we see Salladhor Saan in this episode trying to get into King's Landing and Cersei's pants?

You sure as heck saw part of his fleet.

Those were the boats burning with green fire, right?

My recollection of the book/battle might be failing, but I don't believe Salladhor lost many ships to the fire. I seem to recall Stannis using his ships to assault Kings Landing, leaving Salladhor to secure the bay and make sure no one came sailing up behind him.

That's how it was in the books, yes. The series cut out the great chain that Tyrion had raised across the entrance to the bay, cutting off Stannis's ships from Salladhor's and from escape. Saan's ships remained safely out in the Narrow Sea (or at least in the larger part of Blackwater Bay).

Yup. Regardless, Saan's importance is much greater than this one battle. Patience, young Padawan.

[Zaxxon]

We had some fairly major Season 3 news hit today, so I went ahead and started a Season 3 thread.

[Exodor]

Are we safe to assume that Davos and his son, Mr. "Death By Fire is the Purest Death" are crispy critters ?

Dammit, I can't wait another 5 days for the next episode.

And then it another ~10 months until season 3.

[Isgrimnur]

Are we safe to assume that Davos and his son, Mr. "Death By Fire is the Purest Death" are crispy critters ?

Spoiler:

No, we are not.

[Exodor]

Grantland write-up

While Joffrey shriveled, Tyrion rose to the occasion, inspiring the dubious, outnumbered troops and ordering fusillade after fusillade of burning arrows (which resulted in the highest concentration of flaming Baratheons since the dearly departed Renly). Whether he was swapping macho banter with Bronn or sneak-attacking his enemies’ knees like an opportunistic Denver Bronco, the little man’s stature has never been higher, no matter if he ended the hour cut back down to size.

Holy shit.

[Scuzz]

or sneak-attacking his enemies’ knees like an opportunistic Denver Bronco

That, is a great line.

[Jag]

Are we safe to assume that Davos and his son, Mr. "Death By Fire is the Purest Death" are crispy critters ?

Dammit, I can't wait another 5 days for the next episode.

And then it another ~10 months until season 3.

Or you could just read the books in the meantime

[Exodor]

Are we safe to assume that Davos and his son, Mr. "Death By Fire is the Purest Death" are crispy critters ?

Dammit, I can't wait another 5 days for the next episode.

And then it another ~10 months until season 3.

Or you could just read the books in the meantime

I just finished book 1 over the weekend and started book 2 last night.

I'll probably stop when I finish book 2 and wait to start 3 until after the next season.

I'll probably rethink that plan when I finish book 2 this summer and still have 8 months until the new season.

[Zaxxon]

I'll probably stop when I finish book 2 and wait to start 3 until after the next season.

I'll probably rethink that plan when I finish book 2 this summer and still have 8 months until the new season.

Yeah. You will. It should be obvious that I love the series, but the books are so far superior a tale that it's not a close contest. And book 3 is the best of the books. You ain't stoppin' at two.

[Scuzz]

I'll probably stop when I finish book 2 and wait to start 3 until after the next season.

I'll probably rethink that plan when I finish book 2 this summer and still have 8 months until the new season.

Yeah. You will. It should be obvious that I love the series, but the books are so far superior a tale that it's not a close contest. And book 3 is the best of the books. You ain't stoppin' at two.

I would say you could stop after book three.....

[Zaxxon]

Zaxxon lobs the softball, and Scuzz hits it out.

[Daveman]

I've enjoyed A Feast for Crows in my re-reads more and more, and enjoyed a 2nd reading of A Dance with Dragons a lot more than my first. Overall I'd say I'm more disappointed in ADwD at this point. A lot of interesting stuff does happen a AFfC, even if it's "just" character development. ADwD, while better the 2nd time around for me, still felt like an awful lot of waiting for things to happen.

Not saying the series hasn't reached its high point in A Storm of Swords, just saying you shouldn't stop with it

[Toe]

Not saying the series hasn't reached its high point in A Storm of Swords, just saying you shouldn't stop with it

Agreed. Even not-as-awesome book 4 and 5 are better than most of the stuff out there (imho).

[Vorret]

Great episode, I agree, and I can't beleive there's only one left.
I didn't expect to see daddy lanister as I thought he was going to surprise the Starks!

[Zaxxon]

Not saying the series hasn't reached its high point in A Storm of Swords, just saying you shouldn't stop with it

Agreed. Even not-as-awesome book 4 and 5 are better than most of the stuff out there (imho).

Yep, this. Book 4 got a lot of hate when it came out for lots of reasons. It was very late (5 years after book 3), it wasn't as event-filled as book 3 (by definition), half the characters were left out due to the split of one book into books 4/5, and much of book 4 dealt with new or formerly-minor characters. Combine that last with the 5-year wait and folks were now looking at a decade without progress on some of their favorite characters. It was as close to a no-win situation for GRRM as is possible.

Now that book 5 is out, that last is no longer an issue. Folks have also had time to adjust their expectations a bit, and the general consensus seems to be that book 4 got the short shrift initially and has held up better than originally anticipated. I imagine the same will hold true for book 5.

TL:DR - Books 4 and 5 aren't as OMGWTFAWESOMESAUCE!!!111!!!eleventyONE!!!11!! as book 3. But in the general fantasy lineup, they still kick major ass. Is book 6 out yet?

[Carpet_pissr]

I remember reading all the books in succession up to book 3 in a short period last year, and because of the buzz on the web about 4 (5 had not yet been released I guess), and the reviews...I even asked if I should even bother with reading 4 such was the nerd rage!

After reading 4 and 5, I looked back a little perplexed, because I just didn't see the problem. Admittedly not quite as good as the first 3, but still VERY good IMO, and I can't believe I was even considering not reading 4 (I saw several opinions that suggested skipping it - not here - Amazon reviews I believe).

[Sepiche]

I can understand peoples complaints about the 4th book, even if I think it was good, but I thought the 5th book was legitimately great. Some story arcs didn't go where I expected, but overall the book was well done, and had enough action and twists to keep me well entertained.

[Odin]

Books 4 and 5 both suffer from the same issue - too much filler, not enough bite. There were far too many storylines that could have been cut down to a chapter or so at most, but instead rolled along chapter after chapter after chapter. They lacked the punch and the monumental events (the unexpected deaths and revelations) that we'd gotten used to in the first three books and which, in many respects, define the series.

And this is coming from somebody who has read book 4 at least twice (probably more like 3 times) and listened to it on audiobook at least twice. Likewise, I read book 5, then immediately turned back to page 1 and read it a second time. So it's not as if I didn't give them a fair chance to impress me. They just lack too much of what made the prior books so fantastic.

[Carpet_pissr]

Books 4 and 5 both suffer from the same issue - too much filler, not enough bite. There were far too many storylines that could have been cut down to a chapter or so at most, but instead rolled along chapter after chapter after chapter. They lacked the punch and the monumental events (the unexpected deaths and revelations) that we'd gotten used to in the first three books and which, in many respects, define the series.

And this is coming from somebody who has read book 4 at least twice (probably more like 3 times) and listened to it on audiobook at least twice. Likewise, I read book 5, then immediately turned back to page 1 and read it a second time. So it's not as if I didn't give them a fair chance to impress me. They just lack too much of what made the prior books so fantastic.

Interesting. I guess I don't mind slow, casual development as long as my interest is maintained. If Martin starts going on about what kind of clothes everyone is wearing, or some similar bs rambling, he will lose me, beautiful, big brain or no.

[Zaxxon]

Books 4 and 5 both suffer from the same issue - too much filler, not enough bite. There were far too many storylines that could have been cut down to a chapter or so at most, but instead rolled along chapter after chapter after chapter. They lacked the punch and the monumental events (the unexpected deaths and revelations) that we'd gotten used to in the first three books and which, in many respects, define the series.

And this is coming from somebody who has read book 4 at least twice (probably more like 3 times) and listened to it on audiobook at least twice. Likewise, I read book 5, then immediately turned back to page 1 and read it a second time. So it's not as if I didn't give them a fair chance to impress me. They just lack too much of what made the prior books so fantastic.

Interesting. I guess I don't mind slow, casual development as long as my interest is maintained. If Martin starts going on about what kind of clothes everyone is wearing, or some similar bs rambling, he will lose me, beautiful, big brain or no.

I think this comes back to the long delays I mentioned in my last post again. I have a strong feeling that when the series is done (pleasepleasepleasedon'tcroakmrmartinjustfinishthedamnbooksandliveanother30years), all 7 books will be viewed favorably at the least. But when you read the first 3, then wait 5 years for book 4 and another 6 years for book 5--and both books combined have fewer OMGWTF moments than any of the first 3 books individually--and now you're waiting X years for book 6... Well, slow doesn't work as well. When I have all 7 books in hand and can steamroll through them all, I think everything will be peachy keen.

Sidenote: we're approaching the 1-year mark from the release of ADwD. That's the point at which us fanboys get to start in on Mr. Martin again.

Postscript: I really did like both books 4 and 5.

[Scuzz]

If there wasn't the knowledge that the series was going 7 books (and it sure better), book 4 would have seemed like a buzzkill. Sure stuff happens, but you have to get through it to get to what's going to happen next. Maybe much of what's in it will prove important, but we don't know that yet.

[Odin]

both books combined have fewer OMGWTF moments than any of the first 3 books individually

This was the key for me. At the time I first read AFfC, the interminable wait to get my hands on it was no doubt a factor for me, but it isn't anymore. All these years later, I can read that book and judge it mostly on its own merits, not how I felt about it back when it was first published. And my overall feeling is only slightly more charitable than it was then - it resolved virtually nothing, it set up new mysteries (largely as-yet unresolved)... it reminded me, in fact, of the post-Lord of Chaos books by Robert Jordan, where he split off in a bunch of different directions, adding more minutia and "day-in-the-life" character narrative without moving the story along at all. Which is the key for me. I want to see the story move along. I do mind "slow, casual development" when it's

1. in the middle of a series that, to that point, hadn't over-used it.
2. not broken up by some significant action once in a while. And by significant, I don't mean a scuffle with some bandits, I mean something that's meaningful to the story.
3. not moving the story forward.

Ultimately, I simply feel that AFfC didn't do enough to advance the story. It read too much like "meanwhile, back at the ranch..." and not enough like "here's the really interesting stuff that's going on which is directly related to key story arcs and advances the tale in a meaningful, gripping way."

It probably has more to do with following book 3 - which has some really important turns-of-events and significant cliffhangers at the end, significantly amping up the level of dramatic tension. It's natural for a writer to dip down from that high level of tension so the reader can catch their breath, but the "dip" shouldn't, IMO, last for an entire novel. AFfC (and to an extent ADwD) didn't build to a crescendo the way ASoS did. It just kind of rambled about, looking in on various people going about their day. Bleh. Far from the worst book I've ever read, but a significant disappointment in a series that was absolutely stellar through the first three books.

I'm sincerely hoping that Martin has made it beyond this "interval" period in the story and can now recapture the kind of storytelling that made the first three novels exceptional.

[Carpet_pissr]

Fair enough. I buy that.


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[naednek]

Just want to say thanks for being purposely vague about the talks on books4 & 5. I believe I'm near the end of book 3 myself.

[Zaxxon]

Also, if anyone wants to be not vague, the respective threads are here: A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.

[Odin]

Also, if anyone wants to be not vague, the respective threads are here: A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.

I went ahead and added my comments from this page, above, into the AFfC thread, since they were mostly focused on that book.

[Zaxxon]

Uh, wow.

[Redfive]

Literally, just finished watching it on HBO go.

That's a lot to take in.

I wish my memory on the timeline of events from the books was better.

Seems like the departures from the books continue (IIRC), but I just don't think it bothers me that much. That was a really solid and even poignant at times episode.

[Inverarity]

I'm sorry to see it end. This is a show that could do with another few episodes to flesh out the stories. I think that's its biggest weakness. Or maybe I'm a viewer that could do with reading the books to get those stories. Either way, at this point I'm certainly left with no answers and several story lines that all seem to end mid-sentence.

That, and, well, Dragons are bad ass.