Diablo 3 Impressions

[Zurai]

Uh....if the entire game is just a single encounter then it's more limited in scope than even I expected.

Comments like that show a fundamental inability to see past your current gaming experience and view the system as a whole.

Uh, you're the one who specified full top level gear.

Stop moving the goalposts.

Top quality gear for your character. Not much point buying level 60 stuff if your character is only level 40. Try to see past your myopic viewpoint.

And how long would your character be level 40 if it took zero effort to acquire top-quality gear as you describe?

Not very.

Not to mention, again, that I personally (and I was the first person in my play group to use the AH) went until level 60 using 100% dropped gear and without doing any farming, for that matter.

[GreenGoo]

I've read that adding exta Magic Find gear helps in finding drops that are more level appropriate. GG, while I appreciate what you are saying, I think you and Zurai are looking at this from totally different viewpoints.

We absolutely are. That's the entire conflict. There's not much point me arguing his point for him even though I could, especially since I feel strongly about mine.

BOTH viewpoints are valid, and Blizzard is clearly catering to the "not my viewpoint" side of things. I understand they are trying to achieve a balance, since they literally could have just put up vendors and taken loot drops out of the game entirely. Of course that would remove the fun and satisfaction of finding a nice drop and selling it if it isn't useful to you personally.

It's all a balancing act, and I'm just pointing out that I don't like where they've put the tipping point. It's not like I expect them to make fundamental changes back in my direction. They couldn't put the cat back into the bag anyway, not without wiping the current AH and starting over.

I get both sides of this coin. It's just that I don't like it, not that I don't understand it.

[Zurai]

And my point is that literally the only difference between buying items in D2 and buying items in D3 is that it was a total pain in the ass in D2.

Seriously. That's it.

You're whining and bitching and being emo about interface improvement.

EDIT: That all said, I do agree that the economy is going to be utterly fucked because Blizzard obviously doesn't have a single brain capable of understanding inflation.

[GreenGoo]

Uh....if the entire game is just a single encounter then it's more limited in scope than even I expected.

Comments like that show a fundamental inability to see past your current gaming experience and view the system as a whole.

Uh, you're the one who specified full top level gear.

Stop moving the goalposts.

Top quality gear for your character. Not much point buying level 60 stuff if your character is only level 40. Try to see past your myopic viewpoint.

And how long would your character be level 40 if it took zero effort to acquire top-quality gear as you describe?

Not very.

Not to mention, again, that I personally (and I was the first person in my play group to use the AH) went until level 60 using 100% dropped gear.

But...that's exactly my point. It took months of play to get to level 99 in D2. There are people at the current level cap within the first week of D3. Using, as you say, 100% dropped gear (someone has to generate the AH fodder, as I said).

Things slowed down for me in Nightmare and I had two choices. Slow my play down and play more cautiously, or take a 5 minute trip to the AH to make my current encounters trivial.

I think you're confusing me with those that claim the AH is required for progression. That's clearly and demonstrably untrue as you and every other you in the game has proven. Not to mention the design theory flaw that would exist if you couldn't progress without the AH and then have an empty AH at game release.

[Zurai]

But...that's exactly my point. It took months of play to get to level 99 in D2. There are people at the current level cap within the first week of D3.

OK, I do see I was misunderstanding your point a bit. I do apologize for that.

However, I'll point out that level 99 in D2 was basically just an Achievement. You could beat Hell in the 80's. You have to be level 60 to even enter Inferno in D3. It's not quite the same thing. They've replaced mindlessly grinding out levels (and my God were levels 90-99 a grind in D2; highest I ever got was like 92 I believe) with beating the game on an even harder difficulty level.

There are very, very, VERY few people who can reliably run Act 4 Inferno. Significantly less than 1% of the playerbase, given that only 1.9% of all characters (not accounts) are level 60.

[GreenGoo]

And my point is that literally the only difference between buying items in D2 and buying items in D3 is that it was a total pain in the ass in D2.

Seriously. That's it.

You're whining and bitching and being emo about interface improvement.

EDIT: That all said, I do agree that the economy is going to be utterly fucked because Blizzard obviously doesn't have a single brain capable of understanding inflation.

They've given what used to be an option for dedicated gear builders thinking outside the box to painstaking put together the gear they want, and made it a no brainer for even the most casual player. That changes the game dynamic in large and wide spread ways that "it's easier" doesn't even begin to cover.

It's easier in the same way that defeating Japan by dropping 1 nuke after another on them was easier than trying to invade in a land war.

When a significant amount of the appeal of a game is trying to invade, giving everyone nukes only makes the game better for some.

[GreenGoo]

But...that's exactly my point. It took months of play to get to level 99 in D2. There are people at the current level cap within the first week of D3.

OK, I do see I was misunderstanding your point a bit. I do apologize for that.

However, I'll point out that level 99 in D2 was basically just an Achievement. You could beat Hell in the 80's. You have to be level 60 to even enter Inferno in D3. It's not quite the same thing. They've replaced mindlessly grinding out levels (and my God were levels 90-99 a grind in D2; highest I ever got was like 92 I believe) with beating the game on an even harder difficulty level.

There are very, very, VERY few people who can reliably run Act 4 Inferno. Significantly less than 1% of the playerbase, given that only 1.9% of all characters (not accounts) are level 60.

Yes, there have been significant changes in design philosophy, and not just at the AH/loot levels. I support a LOT of what they've done. And on the surface I think an AH is a great idea. I might have been able to predict what is happening or I might not (as the designers were tasked to do). I never gave it much thought before buying and playing the game.

I LIKE that Inferno is insanely difficult, although people are already making great progress there. I assume the expansion will do to D3 what Lord of Destruction did for D2, but we'll see.

I'm also playing this game differently than I played D1 or D2. I was shocked to find out in D2 that people played through normal and quit. I now understand that better. I'm taking my time and really enjoying normal and nightmare. I will keep at it until my attention span wanes, but I'm not feeling the fevered need to get into inferno and start farming like I did in D2 (sans the inferno part). I hope my attention is kept right through to inferno but I'm in no rush to get there and already feel I've had a great time for my money.

I understand that end game is the only game for some. I also (now) understand that playing through the story is the only game for others. I'm in the middle and I like where I am, but see changes that diminish some of what I enjoyed about the Diablo series (that don't even apply to the inferno pushing farmers).

I can't get over the idea that slapping the D2 and D3 games together using the D3 engine and class designs would be about the best thing ever, as I actually care about the story now in D3 (especially with the clever ties back to D1 and D2 stories). I would love to travel from act to act to act, vanquishing each of the lesser and greater evils using D3 gameplay and combat system.

Loot would be nice, too.

[Zurai]

I'll readily admit that I don't like the design philosophy that resulted in 95% of legendaries being worthless and legendaries and set items being so insanely effing rare. The only legendary that has dropped for me was a worthless blacksmith plan (Cataclysm, a shitty level 50ish 2h mace). That's with something like 150 hours played and at least 24 hours of serious Inferno play with Nephalem Valor stacks (ie, magic find).

Rares I don't have a problem with. I find good rares frequently enough. But I found uniques pretty damn frequently in D2; I even found myself a Buriza-do Kyanon for my Amazon doing Nightmare Mephisto runs. I appreciate that they don't want everyone using the exact same legendaries, but surely there's some middle ground.

Although, they are planning to buff legendaries in 1.1, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much until then.

Oh, and only newly dropped legendaries will get the buffs. That'll take all the old ones off the AH

[IceBear]

Hopefully they can patch in new plans for the blacksmith that will be more attractive so they can remove more items from play.

[GreenGoo]

Somebody was complaining about the bigger levels and comparison to the big fields in Act 1 in D2 and so on (I htink it was coop). I'm in the optional dungeon barracks outside of bastion keep for like the 4th time and this thing is just one long maze.

I have to admit I thought it was hilarious when the Scoundrel started questioning the practicality of having store rooms that required a compass to navigate if you needed to get something from them.

[GreenGoo]

Zurai, I know you think you've done more in the game than the rest of us since you are in Inferno

1. Well, yeah, one would generally say that having played through every part of the game with multiple characters gives one the right to think one has done more in the game than people who havn't.

2. I don't think my opinion is any more valid than others because I'm in Inferno. I only reference it to provide context.

And I will fully admit that I am not that far along and I understand perspectives are likely to change as the nature of the game being played changes. I don't think you'll find many who would disagree with the idea that Hell mode is not the same game as normal mode, in D2 or D3.

That said I feel I can extrapolate a little and rely on heavy experience in the first two D's combined with what I'm seeing in Normal and Nightmare in D3. Of course not with 100% accuracy. Time will tell how far off my extrapolation is. If I ever get to Inferno. I may not. I'm not sure I would enjoy the challenge today like I would have when I was younger.

I LIKE being a wrecking ball in normal, I freely admit. Which has nothing to do with it being easy and everything to do with WHY it's so easy. They've made you a super hero and given you lots of tools to fling the bad guys around like toys. It's the tools part that is so awesome.

[GreenGoo]

Although, they are planning to buff legendaries in 1.1, so I guess I shouldn't complain too much until then.

Oh, and only newly dropped legendaries will get the buffs. That'll take all the old ones off the AH

I've managed to find two low level ones, and I've immediately sold them as they are only going to diminish in value, both from supply side and from the buffs coming to newly found legendaries.

[GreenGoo]

I've read that adding exta Magic Find gear helps in finding drops that are more level appropriate.

I think I'm on record as enjoying the random loot aspect of the game more than anything, which is probably why I'm less than starry eyed about certain aspects of D3. I gear almost exclusively for magic find, because seeing yellows drop where they wouldn't normally (or extremely unlikely I mean) is WAY more fun for me than cruising through content with higher dps and/or hp.

I have a barb in Act 3 normal with about 80% find and the wizard I'm playing now is about 70%. Not that those numbers are impressive but without the AH you have to sacrifice to get that high, and so far it's been a no brainer for me.

When progress slows to a crawl, or I'm dying repeatedly, I'll re-evaluate. In the meantime keep those meaningless, un-AH-sellable yellows coming.

I also attribute my magic find to why I have found 2 crummy legendaries, and hope for more crummy legendaries in the future.

[GreenGoo]

Just so we're clear, the game is a lot fun to play. What they've done with the skill configurations, and then the design of the skills themselves, is masterful.

FUN. And that goes for all 5 classes. Can hardly wait to see what the expansion brings us.

[GreenGoo]

Anyone want to explain to me what is special about *mighty* belts? I get that they are unique to barbs and they have attributes that are sometimes unique to barbs, but they seem so boring I was just wondering if I was missing something.

[Pyperkub]

Somebody was complaining about the bigger levels and comparison to the big fields in Act 1 in D2 and so on (I htink it was coop). I'm in the optional dungeon barracks outside of bastion keep for like the 4th time and this thing is just one long maze.

I have to admit I thought it was hilarious when the Scoundrel started questioning the practicality of having store rooms that required a compass to navigate if you needed to get something from them.

I'm still on my first play through as a female monk, and I've found the Scoundrel dialog to be quite funny at times - are the other two ever as funny? I only stuck with the templar and the enchantress for a few maps each...

[GreenGoo]

The enchantress can be funny at times, and the templar has his moments, although he's normally just melodramatic about everything.

The Scoundrel is brilliant. His writing is pretty good, but what the actor does with his lines is a step above the other two (who are both good).

I think I find the Scoundrel the best with my female wizard. She's not so serious as my female DH, and even though some of the dialogue is the same, the wizard is much more likely to tease him and laugh, but in a more friendly way. Definitely feels like 2 people doing some serious work but with biting, wry humour thrown in.

The scoundrel actor seems to have more range. He's vulgar, snide, fearful, contrite and overconfident. Sometimes all at once. Ok, not really, but I find the fact that he's sometimes respectful, sometimes disrespectful, brave and fearful a nice change from the templar's right makes might approach to everything.

One of the scoundrel exchanges that actually reaches me emotionally (hard to imagine in a Diablo game, but there it is) is when the scoundrel, almost pleadingly, suggests that all this demon fighting will make him a good person after all and your character says nope. The scoundrel is actually hurt by this until your character suggests that he has always been a good person and fighting demons has nothing to do with it.

[EzeKieL]

The enchantress can be funny at times, and the templar has his moments, although he's normally just melodramatic about everything.

The Scoundrel is brilliant. His writing is pretty good, but what the actor does with his lines is a step above the other two (who are both good).

I think I find the Scoundrel the best with my female wizard. She's not so serious as my female DH, and even though some of the dialogue is the same, the wizard is much more likely to tease him and laugh, but in a more friendly way. Definitely feels like 2 people doing some serious work but with biting, wry humour thrown in.

The scoundrel actor seems to have more range. He's vulgar, snide, fearful, contrite and overconfident. Sometimes all at once. Ok, not really, but I find the fact that he's sometimes respectful, sometimes disrespectful, brave and fearful a nice change from the templar's right makes might approach to everything.

One of the scoundrel exchanges that actually reaches me emotionally (hard to imagine in a Diablo game, but there it is) is when the scoundrel, almost pleadingly, suggests that all this demon fighting will make him a good person after all and your character says nope. The scoundrel is actually hurt by this until your character suggests that he has always been a good person and fighting demons has nothing to do with it.

Is he useful combatwise? I always use the templar for my wiz

[Zurai]

The Enchantress is mainly funny in a kind of stereotypical ditzy blonde kind of way.

Enchantress, while walking through the Cathedral: "You know, all of the grass now is descended from a single type of plant in my time. It had the most beautiful flowers..."

Female monk, exasperated: "I don't know what that has to do with anything"

Enchantress: "Oh, um, oops?"

That's paraphrased, but you get the gist.

There is one genuinely funny conversation, though:

E: "The Templar looks at me kind of funny sometimes."
FM (deadpan): "He's in love with you."
E: "WHAT?!"
FM (deadpan): "You didn't notice?"
E: "No!"

[msduncan]

To support MSD's concern, I have a somewhat crappy level 22 yellow 1handed hammer with a bit of a mishmash of stats. Not great, but not terrible. Maybe I could get a couple of gold above vendor price. I just looked through 7 pages (seven pages) of 1 handed yellows with buyouts of 400g or less. Vendor prices for most of these are a little over 300g. Throw in the 15% cut the game takes off the top and there are at least 7 pages (I stopped looking) of yellows for sale for a few percent more than vendor prices.

Now I realize this is low end stuff for normal, which is pretty much the base of the supply pyramid, but it still means that less than a month after the game has come out that there is very little to be gained (for this particular category and level) by using the AH to sell items, and everything to be gained by buying items on the AH.

The glut is already massive. Should be interesting in about a year or so. On the plus side, storage is cheap these days, and unless the game community grows significantly, we're probably seeing a peak of items of this level and quality that should drop over time. Less players in this level zone, less excitement over the AH in general (novelty factor) and other things should see the supply and demand shift to higher end stuff.

It has become a massive problem at level 60. I am getting 8 to 10 yellow drops per Azmodan run (which takes about 15 mins). The AH has become so saturated that I can't see any of them. I have everything listed at 5k and NOTHING is moving.

Blizzard's economy is broken.

[Vorret]

Anyone else lagging like crazy right now?

[GreenGoo]

To support MSD's concern, I have a somewhat crappy level 22 yellow 1handed hammer with a bit of a mishmash of stats. Not great, but not terrible. Maybe I could get a couple of gold above vendor price. I just looked through 7 pages (seven pages) of 1 handed yellows with buyouts of 400g or less. Vendor prices for most of these are a little over 300g. Throw in the 15% cut the game takes off the top and there are at least 7 pages (I stopped looking) of yellows for sale for a few percent more than vendor prices.

Now I realize this is low end stuff for normal, which is pretty much the base of the supply pyramid, but it still means that less than a month after the game has come out that there is very little to be gained (for this particular category and level) by using the AH to sell items, and everything to be gained by buying items on the AH.

The glut is already massive. Should be interesting in about a year or so. On the plus side, storage is cheap these days, and unless the game community grows significantly, we're probably seeing a peak of items of this level and quality that should drop over time. Less players in this level zone, less excitement over the AH in general (novelty factor) and other things should see the supply and demand shift to higher end stuff.

It has become a massive problem at level 60. I am getting 8 to 10 yellow drops per Azmodan run (which takes about 15 mins). The AH has become so saturated that I can't see any of them. I have everything listed at 5k and NOTHING is moving.

Blizzard's economy is broken.

Well, as Zurai points out, it's the same economy that existed in D1 and D2 and there wasn't such negative push back in those games. The AH has given people the assumption that they would be able to sell things on it. Sure, there were tens, maybe hundreds of public games created just for trading in D2. That might seem like a lot until you realize there are millions of people playing the game.

There is nothing wrong with this economy or the ones in the previous games, it's just that there is no market for crappy drops, and never was. Can you imagine if there was a line up waiting to buy your drops while farming baal? No? So I wouldn't expect millions to be lining up for your crappy Azmodan drops. If they are crap for you, they probably aren't all that great for any other Azmodan farmers.

All it takes is trying to imagine what yellows YOU would be willing to buy as you farm Azmodan to realize that the crap you're putting on the AH is not in high demand. Even if it's a "decent" drop, the fact that you're trying to sell it is probably a pretty good indication that it's not worth much (unless you get lucky with a buyer).

I have some yellows (from normal, so yes, the crappiest of the crap) that I have in my stash because they are "pretty good". My instinct is to keep them, even though I have characters of all classes and none of them want to use the items I'm hoarding. In the end I'll either salvage them for crafting components, try to sell them on the AH for a tiny profit, or straight up sell them to a vendor.

I expect that to be the case with 99.9999% of stuff.

The economy isn't broken, it's that there is no market for anything but highly valuable items. And vendor trash, even in Inferno from Azmodan, is still vendor trash (for the most part).

Yes, people are and will continue to have great success on the AH. But its not there massive profit on junk. And as hard as it is it get into inferno and even harder to kill a boss, you're still going to end up with junk most of the time. That's how it was in previous games and how I would expect it to be in this one. Only the rare stuff will have a steady market, and as hard as it is to believe, stuff you can get in a 15 minute boss run is not going to be the rare stuff. Not without a lot of luck and probably a pile of magic find too. Although there's always the lottery ticket aspect, where people will get some crazy awesome thing the first time they step into Inferno and kill a regular monster. The RNG is a harsh bitch goddess.

[GreenGoo]

For the record I found a Daibo for my Monk in Nightmare that was a major upgrade over the 2 fist weapons she was using, giving me an increase of over 100 dps. Which gave me my loot whore fix. I'm good for a bit, but will need another fix soon.

Edit: And then the game proceeded to gang rape me with every blue or yellow pack I ran into. It's laughable how fast I die at times. And it's only Nightmare. The very idea that I could play HC is laughable.

[Asharak]

There is one genuinely funny conversation, though:

E: "The Templar looks at me kind of funny sometimes."
FM (deadpan): "He's in love with you."
E: "WHAT?!"
FM (deadpan): "You didn't notice?"
E: "No!"

Even better is if you have the Templar as your follower when you first enter the Sundered Canyon in Act II (where you meet the Enchantress). The Templar goes on this totally love-struck little aside about how smooth her skin is and her eyes and so on.

That said, my favourite dialogue in the game so far is from a lore book that drops off a necromancer you sometimes meet in the Highlands in Act I: after talking about his plan to raise a horde of demonic goatmen, he says: "and I shall rule as the LORD OF GOATS ... I may need to work on that title some more".

- Ash

[Lordnine]

There is one genuinely funny conversation, though:

E: "The Templar looks at me kind of funny sometimes."
FM (deadpan): "He's in love with you."
E: "WHAT?!"
FM (deadpan): "You didn't notice?"
E: "No!"

Even better is if you have the Templar as your follower when you first enter the Sundered Canyon in Act II (where you meet the Enchantress). The Templar goes on this totally love-struck little aside about how smooth her skin is and her eyes and so on.

That said, my favourite dialogue in the game so far is from a lore book that drops off a necromancer you sometimes meet in the Highlands in Act I: after talking about his plan to raise a horde of demonic goatmen, he says: "and I shall rule as the LORD OF GOATS ... I may need to work on that title some more".

- Ash

I love the little bits of dialogue like this, it makes me sad that most people don’t notice or don’t care. I found a new one tonight while playing an alt. If you have Leah in your party when you enter her home in Tristram she will lecture you if you read her diary.

[msduncan]

To support MSD's concern, I have a somewhat crappy level 22 yellow 1handed hammer with a bit of a mishmash of stats. Not great, but not terrible. Maybe I could get a couple of gold above vendor price. I just looked through 7 pages (seven pages) of 1 handed yellows with buyouts of 400g or less. Vendor prices for most of these are a little over 300g. Throw in the 15% cut the game takes off the top and there are at least 7 pages (I stopped looking) of yellows for sale for a few percent more than vendor prices.

Now I realize this is low end stuff for normal, which is pretty much the base of the supply pyramid, but it still means that less than a month after the game has come out that there is very little to be gained (for this particular category and level) by using the AH to sell items, and everything to be gained by buying items on the AH.

The glut is already massive. Should be interesting in about a year or so. On the plus side, storage is cheap these days, and unless the game community grows significantly, we're probably seeing a peak of items of this level and quality that should drop over time. Less players in this level zone, less excitement over the AH in general (novelty factor) and other things should see the supply and demand shift to higher end stuff.

It has become a massive problem at level 60. I am getting 8 to 10 yellow drops per Azmodan run (which takes about 15 mins). The AH has become so saturated that I can't see any of them. I have everything listed at 5k and NOTHING is moving.

Blizzard's economy is broken.

Well, as Zurai points out, it's the same economy that existed in D1 and D2 and there wasn't such negative push back in those games. The AH has given people the assumption that they would be able to sell things on it. Sure, there were tens, maybe hundreds of public games created just for trading in D2. That might seem like a lot until you realize there are millions of people playing the game.

There is nothing wrong with this economy or the ones in the previous games, it's just that there is no market for crappy drops, and never was. Can you imagine if there was a line up waiting to buy your drops while farming baal? No? So I wouldn't expect millions to be lining up for your crappy Azmodan drops. If they are crap for you, they probably aren't all that great for any other Azmodan farmers.

All it takes is trying to imagine what yellows YOU would be willing to buy as you farm Azmodan to realize that the crap you're putting on the AH is not in high demand. Even if it's a "decent" drop, the fact that you're trying to sell it is probably a pretty good indication that it's not worth much (unless you get lucky with a buyer).

I have some yellows (from normal, so yes, the crappiest of the crap) that I have in my stash because they are "pretty good". My instinct is to keep them, even though I have characters of all classes and none of them want to use the items I'm hoarding. In the end I'll either salvage them for crafting components, try to sell them on the AH for a tiny profit, or straight up sell them to a vendor.

I expect that to be the case with 99.9999% of stuff.

The economy isn't broken, it's that there is no market for anything but highly valuable items. And vendor trash, even in Inferno from Azmodan, is still vendor trash (for the most part).

Yes, people are and will continue to have great success on the AH. But its not there massive profit on junk. And as hard as it is it get into inferno and even harder to kill a boss, you're still going to end up with junk most of the time. That's how it was in previous games and how I would expect it to be in this one. Only the rare stuff will have a steady market, and as hard as it is to believe, stuff you can get in a 15 minute boss run is not going to be the rare stuff. Not without a lot of luck and probably a pile of magic find too. Although there's always the lottery ticket aspect, where people will get some crazy awesome thing the first time they step into Inferno and kill a regular monster. The RNG is a harsh bitch goddess.

I take it from your gigantic lecture post that you think I'm in fucking idiot and can't figure out what is a good item from a run of the mill item. There are TONS of run of the mill items, but at this point even the good items are starting to become so wide spread as to be worthless.

It's simple supply and demand. If you don't build in some sort of aging, bind on equips, or process that requires people to destroy items.... then even the rarest of the rare items are going to be as common as a ladybug in a couple months time with millions of people farming.

It's simple math and it needs to be addressed.

[GreenGoo]

I take it from your gigantic lecture post that you think I'm in fucking idiot and can't figure out what is a good item from a run of the mill item. There are TONS of run of the mill items, but at this point even the good items are starting to become so wide spread as to be worthless.

It's simple supply and demand. If you don't build in some sort of aging, bind on equips, or process that requires people to destroy items.... then even the rarest of the rare items are going to be as common as a ladybug in a couple months time with millions of people farming.

It's simple math and it needs to be addressed.

I take it that you understand an economy existed in both previous Diablos and neither of those had BoE.

Why do you feel there should be a market for gear you can accumulate in 15 minutes? You are literally one person out of millions who will be generating these yellows by the dump truck load every 15 minutes. Unless the gear is on a 5 minute timer where they disintegrate at the end of it, there is no way to keep the amount of crap on the AH at a reasonable level.

Do you honestly believe that BoE is the answer for a game like Diablo where the loot drops like rain?

You are looking at this from an MMO standpoint (which is a good starting point, I admit) and trying to make it equivalent. It's not, and it won't be.

You think you have the answer and seem angry that somehow Blizzard missed this. I'm telling you that for anything but the rarest of the rare BoE, durability, salvage or anything else you can think of will not be enough to stem the tide of mediocre gear on the AH. And yes, I think your "good" items are trash.

Diablo might as well be called the rain maker. There is a never ending flow of loot that no amount of item sinking will fix. trying to fix it is a red herring. I guarantee you in 6 months the market will be stable and at equilibrium (although not in the way you want it to be or think it should be) and this conversation will be moot.

The flow of items into the game does and will forever exceed the the flow out of it until people are just selling everything to the vendors, EXCEPT (and this is where you and I differ) the very rarest items, because despite no reason for items to be destroyed, the rare items will be rare enough that there won't be enough for everyone in the time frame that is relevant for the game's age.

For the rarest of the rare, traditional supply and demand will still apply. For everything else you'll have in effect a limitless supply and therefore scarcity is no longer a consideration.

I predict Blizzard will put in new incentives for selling/nuking items, rather than giving them a shelflife. Perhaps feeding magic items into the grinder will give you a buff or something like that. I'm sure they will come up with something imaginative eventually.

I shouldn't have to lecture you but apparently, given your first post and your response to mine, you needed it. And could probably use a couple more.

Your simple math boils down to infinite in = x out. Unless you plan on doing something about the infinite in, the only answer is infinite out. BoE is not infinite out and neither is anything else you suggested.

[Smoove_B]

Not for anything but this has sort of been mentioned before with the Real Money Auction House. Will Activision / Blizzard make more money when 37 million people are paying $2 for a magic foozle or when 10,000 people are willing to drop $15+ on something? Maybe their real goal was indeed to create INSANE supply so that trading would be cheap enough to keep the virtual coins flowing. Looking at it from that direction, it certainly makes more sense, right?

[GreenGoo]

Well, no, not really. When you are no longer basing your economy on scarcity of resources, you need to monetize in other ways.

Making things cheap is good. Making things so abundant that people can't pay you to take them off your hands is bad, unless you have other ways to generate cash besides $$/unit.

No one in their right mind is going to pay you for a tribble, even if it's only a penny for a sterile one. Just wait long enough and someone is going to be giving them away, or even paying you to take one.

If they are in fact attempting to do what Smoove suggests, then it's a failed experiment right from the start. There is all this downward pressure on prices with, as msd points out, no control or upward pressure. We'll there is, but it's so tiny compared to the downward pressure there might as well not be.

[GreenGoo]

I think an economist or 3 with some game experience could make some very interesting observations that I would love to read. I'm sure there is a pile of stuff I'm missing and given that Blizzard plans to take this to the RMAH eventually, knowing what that stuff is would be extra interesting due to the impact to the "real world" aspects.

[GreenGoo]

My DH has a fast firing 1h x-bow and is using grenades with cluster bomb rune stone in act 1 nightmare. I can cover the entire screen with explosions. It's somewhat effective, but more importantly it's fun as heck.

edit: Fyi, 1700 hp is not really enough.

[GreenGoo]

As an example of the inexperience of some of the AH users, there are many that are undercutting in order to get their product to sell. I am always loathe to undercut given what that might do to market expectations and general demand, but these guys are either so inexperienced or not paying enough attention that they are selling at vendor prices. Which wouldn't really be a big deal except for the 15% the AH takes off the top.

These guys are cluttering up the AH in order to get less cash than they could just by selling it to miner bob in camp.

[Chesspieceface]

My DH has a fast firing 1h x-bow and is using grenades with cluster bomb rune stone in act 1 nightmare. I can cover the entire screen with explosions. It's somewhat effective, but more importantly it's fun as heck.

edit: Fyi, 1700 hp is not really enough.

My 42 DH has nearly 8000hp and that's not enough. I use Hungering Arrows and Rapid Fire the most still, but I also do like 2300dps so strategy is less critical. Caltrops and Vault seem to do the rest.

[KiloOhm]

What Blizz needs to do is make something to gamble with rares on. LIke they did in D2 where you could stuff 3 rares into the cube and get a new random rare. That would at lest let you gamble on the 3 mediocre rares. People would even buy them from the AH to use to gamble.

I'm making the assumption that most people are playing like me and not actually buying anything except maybe the odd item on occasion here and there. It's a tough market for sure. I just keep the odd rare that looks good for my friends if it suits their class. I haven't bought any item on the AH (ok I bought a gem for 100G once) - not even looking and I'm almost done with NM. There's really no need to buy up to now unless your drops have been particularly unlucky. I imagine gear below hell level just isn't worth selling at all, unless it's exceptional.

[Vorret]

I was getting kinda frustrated with my monk in Act 2 Hell.
I mean... I die all the time. I died alot in Nightmare too but hell is crazy.

So I decided to play my DH a bit since I have a crapload of stuff for him saved up.
What a difference.

I still die once in a while but currently in Act 2 nightmare and I've died maybe 5 times since I started him (vs maybe 50 with my monk).

I might keep on lvling my DH after all!

[Asharak]

I was getting kinda frustrated with my monk in Act 2 Hell.
I mean... I die all the time. I died alot in Nightmare too but hell is crazy.

My Monk (L52, about 3600 DPS and 33K HP, IIRC) isn't very far into Hell and hasn't spent any time at that level solo, but after changing my spec and picking up some AH gear in the first half of Nightmare, I've found her to be an absolutely unstoppable wrecking ball. I just stood toe-to-toe with Azmodan until he died on NIghtmare, for instance. Fighting Diablo in a four person group, I was the only person who didn't die (granted, our Demon Hunter somehow got into the fight with all his equipment broken, so he had only 3K health). If you're interested, my current skill build is this:

LM: Fists of Thunder + Thunderclap
RM: Crippling Wave + Concussion
#1: Cyclone Strike + Implosion
#2: Seven-Sided Strike + Sudden Assault
#3: Sweeping Wind + Firestorm
#4: Mantra of Conviction + Intimidation
P1: Resolve
P2: Seize the Initiative
P3: One with Everything

So, again, I can't speak to that build working on Hell yet (I am aware that it's very lacking in direct-heal abilities, although the intent has been to compensate with damage-reduction abilities and life-per-hit weapons; I had about +250 LpH at the end of Nightmare and +350 currently in Hell) but I can say that it dominated Nightmare. The entire point is to stack the passive +damage effects from Sweeping Wind and Mantra of Conviction, use Cyclone Strike to pull enemies into that area of effect, and then survive because Concussion, Intimidation, Resolve and Seize the Initiative all reduce my damage taken. At one point in Zoltan Kulle's Archives on Nightmare, it got so easy I just started seeing how long a kill chain I could get up to... it was 90-something, it turns out.

My operating theory is that I should be able to stick with that build throughout Hell, but with a need to focus on picking up more and better +resist gear (that I should be able to afford, because One with Everything means I can just pick a resist at random to focus on, rather than needing to pay the All Resist premium). I'll let you know how that works out... my group has definitely struggled with some the early Elites on Hell so far, although we haven't had to just give up and avoid any yet.

- Ash

[GreenGoo]

What Blizz needs to do is make something to gamble with rares on.

That would work too. Maybe have an actual slot machine (named and themed something more appropriate) where your potential reward is tied to what you gambled. For those who don't gamble, a slot machine will often multiple ways to win. This can be in a bunch of different ways. One way is to have 3 lines that are potential winners. If you put 1 coin in, you can only win on one line. If you put 2 in, you can win on two lines. 3 coins = 3 lines.

An even simplier method is to have the winning value multiplied by the number of coins gambled. A *Jackpot* with 3 coins gambled gives the winner 3 times the winnings the same jackpot gives a winner with only 1 coin gambled.

So instead of coins you gamble items. Perhaps item level works as a jackpot modifier. Perhaps we let the player put as many items in as they want, incrementally upping the chance for a "win" in the same way that magic find works in the wild.

These are just basic, boring ideas. I would expect someone who gets paid to design gaming systems to come up with something really fun and interesting, while still doing the job of eating items at a rapid rate.

If you are guaranteed to win at a minimum the vendor value, there is no longer any incentive to sell to a vendor (which doesn't matter. for our purposes selling to a vendor or gambling it is the same thing. For the player there is a small chance to turn that vendor trash into something better, even if it's just more coins). For gambloholics like myself, you will probably see someone snatching up all the cheap blues and yellows from the AH just to gamble them. That, if done right, would go a long way to alleviate concerns of msd and others.

If we give them a reason to willingly remove items from the game they will start burning items and thinking it's a great thing. The Blacksmith is sort of like that, but there is no scaling (more items destroyed = better reward) beyond increased component cost, but worse, you know within a certain range what you're going to get from the blacksmith. It's easy to tell that you're not going to get anything worthwhile no matter how kind the RNG is to you.

When a powerball lottery is $100,000,000, suddenly spending a few bucks on tickets sounds like a good idea, even though the chances of winning are miniscule.

The gambling in D2 was a step in the right direction. I'd like to see them take that and run with it into something a lot more interesting.

I mentioned buffs earlier. The Valor buff is a great idea which could be used in this context. For each item burned, you get a magic find buff of 1% x item level/60 or something. It lasts for a time limit. Or it lasts for the entire session or until you die. Something. I have no imagination for this sort of thing but someone could come up with some really awesome ideas that make finding vendor trash a happy event, rather than anger inducing as it seems to do now (because the AH implies that you can sell them for profit, but you can't, so something must be wrong etc).

[msduncan]

My Barbarian's strategy is shifting again now that I've made it to Inferno.

At the end of Hell mode, I had made it to 32K life and 10.1K DPS. I can bring down the Lust demon before she even disappears the first time.

Inferno is another matter. I have slowly started replacing my rares with similar stat items that have + to All resistances. I've managed to get all resistances up to 150 just by buying a couple items last night. I'm farming junk yellows and blues to vendor to raise money for more AH items to get this up to 400+ to get through Inferno.

[coopasonic]

Barbarian to level 53, mid act I hell (33ish hours played)
Monk to level 15, completed act I Normal
Wizard to level 7, maybe beat skeleton king (41 minutes played)
Demon Hunter to level 37, completed act I nightmare (13ish hours played?)

I did it pretty much like that, not switching back and forth, just played the barb straight through to hell then monk then wiz then DH. I'm still not sure what I want to play longer term. I really enjoy playing the DH, but she is getting punished in nightmare. She has a bow from the AH and otherwise untwinked except for stealing gems from the barb. I really want to level the barb so I can get better gems for the DH.

The DH was, in fact, a demon on normal, took down diablo dinging 32 on the kill with just under 11 hours played.

I think I am around 45-50 hours total played and no sign of slowing down. The only real problem is I am not sure I can even get the DH to inferno. nightmare butcher took 4 or 5 tries. I ran out of discipline for vault. I need to get her some regen/life steal. Life stealing chakrams would help a lot, I think.

[TheMix]

I'm not having too much trouble with my DH on Nightmare. Granted, I just started. Skeleton King was cake. I've noticed that some fights take a lot longer, but otherwise, it's not been too difficult.

I will say that I gave up Vault. I just seem to be incompetent with it.

I'm having much better luck using Strafe. It has the bonus of using Hatred. I seem to just be better at it. I use the version that fires at the mobs as you spin away.

I did forego some dps in lieu of Vitality though. After completing ACT IV, I decided that I needed some more health. I haven't noticed much difference with the dps drop, but adding 80+ Vitality seems to make a nice difference.