Buying your first home

[malchior]

go with new construction purchase. no worries about offers etc

I wish. In NJ, most new construction are houses on tiny lots or townhomes with many new communities being 55+ only.

[Octavious]

If I could do it all over again I would have gone for a townhouse. I just rented a darn apartment. I'm just not good at fixing anything more complicated then a door knob.

[malchior]

Now, now -- no need to be hasty. If they come back, you get to lower your offer by $15K. As the person that was on the business end of that conversation it sucked but we had to take it -- so pay it forward.

I was just browsing the MLS and came upon this house (the offer where the owners wouldn't sign until they found a new home even though I was going to give them 3 - 4 months to settle). They just dropped their listing price to around what we accepted their counter at. We would still be about 1 and half months from settlement based on the original schedule. If my current deal falls through, I would really consider re-visiting the property.

Downside is we would likely have to re-cut in my old agent. She tried calling me on Friday and I figured it was about this property but to see them drop their price so drastically is funny. They must have had zero action in the month or so since we walked away.

[Kelric]

Our Kelric is buying a home? My how time has passed sniff sniff

He's all growed-up!

Do not underestimate the importance of being able to save money while you're living somewhere. There's always (SEE: always) insane random things that end up happening and if you're just barely making your monthly bills and not developing any type of financial cushion you might end up spiraling into (short or long term) debt rather quick over what amounts to normal home ownership.

Yeah, definitely wise to be buying below your max-approved price.

I remember when we were pre-approved. We both make good salaries and had good credit scores but the amount we were pre-approved for was a little ridiculous. And this was after the bubble burst. We just looked at the figure and thought about how much rope the bank was handing out to hang ourselves if we didn't use careful judgement.

Glad we don't have to do that all again for quite a number of years. But as I was talking to neighbors about home repairs and renovations, it seems that all the houses (neighborhood built in 1947) are hitting a point where things need to be changed. gulp So we may have to do the home equity loan dance in the future.

Yeah, I'll be much more comfortable with a mortgage/taxes/condo/etc. that could be under $1k than one more around $1200 or $1300.

[RunningMn9]

Sorry to burst your bubble lady, but why would I pay your agent anything?

Because in the end, her agent will end up doing all manner of things for you, and because she represents the buyer and can ensure that there is no deal.

Back in 2003, we sold our townhouse ourselves. I got a call from an agent that had a buyer, but he wouldn't bring them in without me agreeing to pay his fee.

I agreed to pay 6%, with the stipulation that my asking price just went up 8%.

Everyone agreed, and in the end, the buyer paid the agent by paying 6% above what we were originally asking.

Agents are useful, or at least they can be.

[Carpet_pissr]

That's different though, and in that case I would agree to pay something to the agent (def not 6% though!). The agent had a buyer in hand and offered to bring them to you. In this case, the buyers approached us directly via mutual friends.

[Kelric]

Doing lots of math with the idea of writing up an offer this weekend if we get the condo docs we need and they pan out. I'm considering taking out some of my Roth IRA contributions to put toward a down payment for a few reasons. 1) It would make having cash for closing costs and a few months of payments on hand much easier, as I could use the Roth IRA as my down payment amount and my current savings as the reserves. 2) My retirement fund has only earned $150 total over the last two years anyway since I got hammered like many others in that time. 3) With a little effort, I can repay the entirety of the withdrawal in less than a year while still making my regular retirement contributions.

Thoughts?

[LordMortis]

Doing lots of math with the idea of writing up an offer this weekend if we get the condo docs we need and they pan out. I'm considering taking out some of my Roth IRA contributions to put toward a down payment for a few reasons. 1) It would make having cash for closing costs and a few months of payments on hand much easier, as I could use the Roth IRA as my down payment amount and my current savings as the reserves. 2) My retirement fund has only earned $150 total over the last two years anyway since I got hammered like many others in that time. 3) With a little effort, I can repay the entirety of the withdrawal in less than a year while still making my regular retirement contributions.

Thoughts?

My thought is it is an excellent idea. However, those around here that know how to invest money say it's a terrible idea. There is some tax voodoo they say that counteracts the point of putting your money into IRAs. I've never figured out what the voodoo is.

[Kelric]

I pretty much know my 401K comes before taxes, my Roth IRA comes after taxes. After that, I have no idea how they work.

[Carpet_pissr]

Doing lots of math with the idea of writing up an offer this weekend if we get the condo docs we need and they pan out. I'm considering taking out some of my Roth IRA contributions to put toward a down payment for a few reasons. 1) It would make having cash for closing costs and a few months of payments on hand much easier, as I could use the Roth IRA as my down payment amount and my current savings as the reserves. 2) My retirement fund has only earned $150 total over the last two years anyway since I got hammered like many others in that time. 3) With a little effort, I can repay the entirety of the withdrawal in less than a year while still making my regular retirement contributions.

Thoughts?

I would do that in a skinny minute if I was eligible, but alas, it only works for first time home buyers. Either I didn't know about it when we bought our current house, or that option was not available at the time (2002 maybe?).

[pr0ner]

go with new construction purchase. no worries about offers etc

This is what I did!

[Kelric]

Found a better place we both like a lot. Thinking hard about making an offer on Monday.

Listed at $140,000 but it has gone down $35,000 in three months. First floor of a two family condo, the upstairs people have the 2nd and 3rd floors so they have 66% of the 'vote.' Decent sized yard you can easily use, plus a giant yard space on a hill. Has a deeded garage, which is wicked rare in Salem. Big front porch only for the first floor unit, bay windows in the front. The appliances are 10 years old but are definitely the cheap versions from back then. Nice cabinets in the kitchen, the floor is crappy linoleum, the counter top is serviceable but would be replaced eventually. The toilet, vanity and sink are good but the tub is terrible. One side of the floor is kitchen and large dining room/room you can use as a bedroom that has a closet and a built in silverware cabinet. The other side has the living room in the front that is the same size as the dining room, then the back half of that floor is two separate smaller bedrooms. The upstairs has their washer/dryer in unit, whereas ours would be in the basement. The basement is divided by a half wall down the middle. .8 miles from the train station / center of town, upstairs neighbor has three kids (one is a senior in HS) and a friendly dog.

I'd have a tougher time putting together the down payment and having a good reserve at this price, but we like the place so much more than anywhere else we've seen (except one place the fiancee LOVES but I don't particularly like). Going to be doing a lot of thinking tonight.

[Kelric]

Going to make an offer today. AAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

[malchior]

Update: I'm still in Attorney Review (since Wednesday) and haven't heard anything at all since I talked to my lawyer last on Thursday around noon. This wasn't a complete surprise as he warned me both attorneys were going to be unavailable on Friday afternoon. Golf/Jersey shore calling!

Hopefully this wraps up sometime within the next few days so I can get moving on inspections and more importantly the appraisal. I still half-expect the whole thing to fall apart any second based on past results but hopefully no news is good news in this case.

Going to make an offer today. AAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!

Good luck!

[Kelric]

Okay, got the offer all written up but have not submitted it yet. Waiting to hear from the seller agent about one or two things before submitting and writing the first check. Come on person, you're supposed to want to sell the place!

Edit - Offer officially submitted. AAAAAHHHH!!!!!!

[malchior]

So, I still don't know what is going on with my deal. My lawyer hasn't returned 2 calls and 2 emails since yesterday morning seeking an update on my review status. This uncertainty is *killing* my wife. I don't think I'll be able to take another crack at it for awhile if this one falls through.

[Octavious]

What a bunch of asshats. I don't remember having any issues with the lawyer portion at all.

[malchior]

What a bunch of asshats. I don't remember having any issues with the lawyer portion at all.

He just got back to me. The old 'I had no updates' but he has since gotten an update. This deal just took a deal for the worse.

In the finished basement was what appears to be a built-in wrap around bar. One 15-foot section of the finished basement wall appeared to be a piece of the bar. We specifically asked if it was included in the sale. We were told it was. My lawyer decided to put it in the contract to reinforce. Now they have come back to say that it isn't part of the sale but they'd be willing to sell it. Yea, not happening. Not on a house of this price. Everyone pretty much agrees this is their way to try to get another 2K out of us. Luckily, I have this in an email communication so we are forwarding that over to the other side.

Anyway, the lawyers talked back and forth and the seller maintains it isn't built-in and is removable. I am asking to be shown it because the wall section matches the bar wood exactly. If they are willing to leave the section of wall then cool, take your precious bar.

[Carpet_pissr]

What made you ask if it was included in the first place (as opposed to merely assuming it was if it was built in)? (if I may play Devil's advocate here ).

[Smoove_B]

Pffft. I repeat -- when we did our final walk through the day of the closing the homeowner took the goddamned mirrors from all the bathrooms. You can also take a gamble and agree to consider purchasing the bar. Then during the home inspection see what they can find and use that information to make trades -- because the home inspector ALWAYS finds something. Always. Also make sure you inquire as to the installation legitimacy (plumbing, electrical, etc...) with respect to all local and state codes (you're looking for permit and inspection records). You keep forgetting that you have so much power and leverage right now. To quote from one of the greats:

Trent: You know what you are? You're like a big bear with claws and with fangs...
Sue: ...big fucking teeth, man.
Trent: Yeah... big fuckin' teeth on ya'. And she's just like this little bunny, who's just kinda cowering in the corner.
Sue: Shivering.
Trent: Yeah, man just kinda... you know, you got these claws and you're staring at these claws and your thinking to yourself, and with these claws you're thinking, "How am I supposed to kill this bunny, how am I supposed to kill this bunny?"

[malchior]

What made you ask if it was included in the first place (as opposed to merely assuming it was if it was built in)? (if I may play Devil's advocate here ).

I asked and got confirmation from the listing agent. It appeared to be part of the structure. I am not going to get construction permits to refinish an existing finished basement. Edit: Realized that I didn't answer the question directly. I read in a few places that you can't assume that 'furniture' even if built-in is included in the sale outside the kitchen and bathrooms.

Pffft. I repeat -- when we did our final walk through the day of the closing the homeowner took the goddamned mirrors from all the bathrooms. You can also take a gamble and agree to consider purchasing the bar. Then during the home inspection see what they can find and use that information to make trades -- because the home inspector ALWAYS finds something. Always. Also make sure you inquire as to the installation legitimacy (plumbing, electrical, etc...) with respect to all local and state codes (you're looking for permit and inspection records). You keep forgetting that you have so much power and leverage right now.

Oh, I agree. I can comfortably walk away anytime. I don't want to agree to buy the bar at all though. I don't care about it; it is the structure that I care about. I am already talking to the township about when it would be good to stop by and pull permits.

[Freezer-TPF-]

You have power as a buyer if you are willing to walk away and/or the seller is desperate. Otherwise, by the time you (or your spouse) begin to get emotionally and psychologically invested in the house, then, umm yeah....

Oh, and make sure the a/c drain is clear before you get into the high humidity season. Ask me how I know!

[malchior]

You have power as a buyer if you are willing to walk away and/or the seller is desperate. Otherwise, by the time you (or your spouse) begin to get emotionally and psychologically invested in the house, then, umm yeah....

Luckily we are pretty jaded so we aren't all that invested in the actual house. I just want a clean deal. If they can show me the bar isn't part of the structure...Take it away. It eats up a ton of space anyway.

Oh, and make sure the a/c drain is clear before you get into the high humidity season. Ask me how I know!

Yikes! Overflowing condensation pan?

[LordMortis]

You have power as a buyer if you are willing to walk away and/or the seller is desperate. Otherwise, by the time you (or your spouse) begin to get emotionally and psychologically invested in the house, then, umm yeah....

Luckily we are pretty jaded so we aren't all that invested in the actual house. I just want a clean deal. If they can show me the bar isn't part of the structure. Take it away. It eats up a ton of space anyway.

Oh, and make sure the a/c drain is clear before you get into the high humidity season. Ask me how I know!

Yikes! Overflowing condensation pan?

I got an issue like that and I don't know how to get in and fix it. When the AC is running I have a stream that runs to the drain. I don't like that it will eventually mold over or rust out my heater but I have no idea where they water is collecting nor how to fix it.

[Roman]

what is so different from sales down there as opposed to sales up here?

Here the seller lists on the 'seller sheet' which items are included in a home purchase and specifically lists all items that are 'out of scope' (PM talk )
Do you guys have this down there? If so than they should have listed in seller agreement that the 'bar downstairs' is not included in the sale purchase.

A buddy of mine bought a house and when he moved in all the antique light fixtures were removed by the previous owners. BIG MISTAKE. He sued and got the replacement value back. They were not listed under the 'chattels' section of items not included. Idiots.

[malchior]

what is so different from sales down there as opposed to sales up here?

Here the seller lists on the 'seller sheet' which items are included in a home purchase and specifically lists all items that are 'out of scope' (PM talk )
Do you guys have this down there? If so than they should have listed in seller agreement that the 'bar downstairs' is not included in the sale purchase.

There is a list of included and not included items. The bar is not in either. For example, they are taking two light fixtures and my attorney wrote in that they must be replaced with functional builder's grade fixtures--that was fine by me.

[Octavious]

Is anything simple with you? I swear Jesus is going to be reborn in the basement during closing killing the deal.

[Roman]

so by definition if the bar is not listed than it is assumed that it is part of the home & sale purchase. Some people are just dicks!

[coopasonic]

so by definition if the bar is not listed than it is assumed that it is part of the home & sale purchase. Some people are just dicks!

It depends if it is attached. The couch isn't listed either, does that mean it stays?

[malchior]

so by definition if the bar is not listed than it is assumed that it is part of the home & sale purchase. Some people are just dicks!

It depends if it is attached. The couch isn't listed either, does that mean it stays?

This is the crux of the problem. And whether the back wall of the bar is part of the bar. If it were to go there would be a huge hole in the finished basement. I expect a contiguous wall around the entirety of the finished portion. Pretty simple to me.

[Carpet_pissr]

A buddy of mine bought a house and when he moved in all the antique light fixtures were removed by the previous owners. BIG MISTAKE. He sued and got the replacement value back. They were not listed under the 'chattels' section of items not included. Idiots.

I think the asshats that removed the mirrors in the post above could probably have been made to replace/return those. That is absolutely ridiculous (unless they were some family heirlooms, which if they were, should have been stated up front and listed in the contract)

When I asked my agent about certain outdoor items I wanted to take with me, that would be a pain to move around, he said it's easier on many levels if anything you want to keep is not in plain sight (in this case a collection of large river rock from my grandfather's farm, that I had been using in the landscaping, as well a couple of young, unique japanese maples). I even considered removing our natural stone bird bath, which cost me a few hundred bucks, primarily because I am not sure I can find one like it anymore, and I reallllly like it. Everything else? Keep it! (although now that I think about it, my little mini fridge I have in the garage...I wonder if that would be considered the same as a normal fridge (usually those stay, mainly due to size and pain of moving, I guess).

[Roman]

so by definition if the bar is not listed than it is assumed that it is part of the home & sale purchase. Some people are just dicks!

It depends if it is attached. The couch isn't listed either, does that mean it stays?

puhleeze . Within reason.

If the bar has been incorporated into the wall as described and the paneling has been 'cut out' to conform to the bar than......

[Roman]

A buddy of mine bought a house and when he moved in all the antique light fixtures were removed by the previous owners. BIG MISTAKE. He sued and got the replacement value back. They were not listed under the 'chattels' section of items not included. Idiots.

I think the asshats that removed the mirrors in the post above could probably have been made to replace/return those. That is absolutely ridiculous (unless they were some family heirlooms, which if they were, should have been stated up front and listed in the contract)

When I asked my agent about certain outdoor items I wanted to take with me, that would be a pain to move around, he said it's easier on many levels if anything you want to keep is not in plain sight (in this case a collection of large river rock from my grandfather's farm, that I had been using in the landscaping, as well a couple of young, unique japanese maples). I even considered removing our natural stone bird bath, which cost me a few hundred bucks, primarily because I am not sure I can find one like it anymore, and I reallllly like it. Everything else? Keep it! (although now that I think about it, my little mini fridge I have in the garage...I wonder if that would be considered the same as a normal fridge (usually those stay, mainly due to size and pain of moving, I guess).

we had one agent who advised us to remove the items that we did not want to include - items like an antique light fixture above our dining room harvest table. I disagreed because it added to the overall look of our home which adds to the selling points. We simply stated that the light fixture above harvest table in dining room was out of scope. Simple.

Agents who want to remove items from a home are silly IMHO. I want people to see what I have done and show my home off. If a deal were to fall through because I did not want to include a light fixture that I listed as out of scope than the buyer was not serious.

[Roman]

Everything else? Keep it! (although now that I think about it, my little mini fridge I have in the garage...I wonder if that would be considered the same as a normal fridge (usually those stay, mainly due to size and pain of moving, I guess).

Just list it as not included. I agree that appliances are 'normally' included. In our case when we sold our last home we wanted to take the appliances with us and listed them as so - we just bought them about 8mos before. The dishwasher is the only item that you can't really take without replacing it. So we listed that we would also be taking the dishwasher BUT that another 'functional' dishwasher would be put in its place and be hooked up OR we would offer a $300 discount on the purchase price.

The smart buyer took the $300 credit - he inferred - correctly I might add - that I would be replacing the existing DW with a simple simon model that would have cost me less than $200

[Carpet_pissr]

we had one agent who advised us to remove the items that we did not want to include - items like an antique light fixture above our dining room harvest table. I disagreed because it added to the overall look of our home which adds to the selling points. We simply stated that the light fixture above harvest table in dining room was out of scope. Simple.

Agents who want to remove items from a home are silly IMHO. I want people to see what I have done and show my home off. If a deal were to fall through because I did not want to include a light fixture that I listed as out of scope than the buyer was not serious.

Have to disagree with you there. Maybe one of the points that made your house among many stand out, was the fact that it had kick ass antique fixtures? Not going to be a big point in the overall house buying scheme, but sometimes it's the little details that make people choose one over another (especially in a hot market).

To me, that is very much part of the house, and showing it with those fixtures, then stating you will remove them, just seems kinda bait and switchy to me. I mean, I gussied up my yard with a shit ton of nice plants, mulch (i.e. $$$), etc. that I know that I will not get back in return, but it certainly makes the house look much nicer, and one of our potential buyers told me they almost bought the house because the yard was so awesome (he was a yard person too, etc). If I said "the plants go with me"...it would not be the same yard, if that makes sense.

We also have some awesome (to us), modern ceiling fans, as opposed to the boring, cheap, and almost always hideous "Hampton Bay" Lowe's stuff you see in almost every house (at least all the ones we have looked at, including ours when we bought it). My wife thinks we should take them! But Jesus, are we going to deconstruct the whole house when we move? Who wants to do all that uninstallation (not me, brother), and RE installation of the replacement? Shall we take the doors too?

From the buyer's perspective, if/when I approach the contract signing, and all of a sudden the seller presents 15 "not included" line items (outdoor shed, fixtures, ceiling fans, bird bath, brass door knocker (this one happened to us), mailbox, etc), I am either negotiating down, or somehow getting that replacement value back.

[malchior]

puhleeze . Within reason.

If the bar has been incorporated into the wall as described and the paneling has been 'cut out' to conform to the bar than......

It is more extreme than a cutout. Just to give an idea I will attempt some Dwarf Fortress graphics. I've left out the right side of the basement below:

|---OO-xxSxx--------------
|+++++ x++++++++++++++
|+++++ xxxx+++++++++++
|+++++++++++++++++++++
O+++++++++++++++++++++
|-----------------------------

O = doors into unfinished space.
| and - = panel walls
x = Wood
S = stained glass inset into wood
+ = concrete floor

The wood is all matched. So even if the bar is removed then there now is a wood section of wall that doesn't match the rest of the basement. I don't care much about that but I will care if they decide that is part of the bar and take it leaving a huge 15-foot gap. The basement was clearly finished with the bar included in the design. I guess it is possible that they had some random bar and they decided to design the finished basement around it but clearly they aren't all that attached to it if they are willing to sell it. They are maintaining that it has been moved several times before. We think they are full of shit because they then moved a huge wooden bar AND a huge wooden wall. My hunch is because we asked about it specifically prior to the offer and included it in the contract that they might have thought it was important and saw an opportunity to make some extra cash. We weren't inquiring because we liked it, we inquired because it is clearly part of the room. It just is another headache now. If they remove it then there are plumbing issues introduced that we have to account for.

[Roman]

good news for you that should this issue become tenuous you can always state that you are good with them taking the bar with the condition that the open area on the wall be finished in accordance with the existing design (panels) and be stained to match. Also include that when the bar plumbing is terminated that it is done in such a manner that should you decide to complete a bar yourself that the fixtures be left in such a manner that you are able to do so ie: make sure they leave enough copper to weld to etc etc.

my guess here is that it will prove to be too much work for them to run with and they will simply abandon the argument.

[malchior]

good news for you that should this issue become tenuous you can always state that you are good with them taking the bar with the condition that the open area on the wall be finished in accordance with the existing design (panels) and be stained to match. Also include that when the bar plumbing is terminated that it is done in such a manner that should you decide to complete a bar yourself that the fixtures be left in such a manner that you are able to do so ie: make sure they leave enough copper to weld to etc etc.

my guess here is that it will prove to be too much work for them to run with and they will simply abandon the argument.

I had a conversation with the lawyer this morning and we had a similar discussion. Basically we're agreeing for them to exclude the bar but they will restore the basement to match the rest of the space. We expect that they'll either drop it or sign as it is. He expects that the cost to remove it is going to be an issue and then the ball will be in their court when we assert that the bar is not included in the sale (the Trent route).

[Kelric]

Why oh why did I give them until 5pm today to respond to my offer? The wait is killing me!

[Roman]

good news for you that should this issue become tenuous you can always state that you are good with them taking the bar with the condition that the open area on the wall be finished in accordance with the existing design (panels) and be stained to match. Also include that when the bar plumbing is terminated that it is done in such a manner that should you decide to complete a bar yourself that the fixtures be left in such a manner that you are able to do so ie: make sure they leave enough copper to weld to etc etc.

my guess here is that it will prove to be too much work for them to run with and they will simply abandon the argument.

I had a conversation with the lawyer this morning and we had a similar discussion. Basically we're agreeing for them to exclude the bar but they will restore the basement to match the rest of the space. We expect that they'll either drop it or sign as it is. He expects that the cost to remove it is going to be an issue and then the ball will be in their court when we assert that the bar is not included in the sale (the Trent route).

Glad to hear it - you should just use me as your lawyer. I'm wayyyy cheaper