Buying your first home

[malchior]

I think my brain is fried today. I've accomplished almost nothing today.

Today?

[Octavious]

I think my brain is fried today. I've accomplished almost nothing today.

Today?

More then usual. I actually forgot my SS # the other day. I think I need a brain scan.

[Biyobi]

I think my brain is fried today. I've accomplished almost nothing today.

Today?

More then usual. I actually forgot my SS # the other day. I think I need a brain scan.

I don't think you're going to find the number that way.

[LordMortis]

I think my brain is fried today. I've accomplished almost nothing today.

Today?

More then usual. I actually forgot my SS # the other day. I think I need a brain scan.

I don't think you're going to find the number that way.

What if it's a brain bar code scan? We could run his head over a UScan lane and see what it returns. Perhaps the Mark of the FDR.

[malchior]

I think my brain is fried today. I've accomplished almost nothing today.

Today?

More then usual. I actually forgot my SS # the other day. I think I need a brain scan.

I don't think you're going to find the number that way.

What if it's a brain bar code scan? We could run his head over a UScan lane and see what it returns. Perhaps the Mark of the FDR.

Is that wheelchair shaped?

[Octavious]

Mom says I'm special.

[RunningMn9]

I cannot be compelled to sell my house. I cannot compel you to buy my house. Both parties can walk away - even at the closing (I almost did, as a buyer and seller, on the same day).

When you are a buyer and you walk, your deposit is at risk for becoming forfeit (which is why sellers want large enough deposits that you won't walk away from them). As a seller, if you walk away, even at the last minute, it's much harder to go after the seller.

You certainly can, and you can go after them for fees you've incurred during the process. But if the seller walks before you close the deal, you aren't getting the home.

My mother-in-law has seen it happen on more than one occasion, at the table during the closing.

In my case, a dispute arose the morning of the closing and the buyer was making noise about something she thought that she was entitled to from the home inspection that her lawyer fuct up. My options were to give in to the demand or tell her to go pound and walk away. And that would have been that (except that would have caused me to walk away from the other deal - and in that case nothing would have happened to me because part of that deal was contingent on me getting the mortgage, which would have evaporated without the cash from the first sale).

We went over this with our attorney prior to selling our townhouse, as we had the same concern as malchiors sellers. At the time (2003), you couldn't make a contingent offer to buy without it get rejected instantly. So we had to sell first.

[RunningMn9]

here is an example

Obviously the seller (or buyer) is in breach of contract. And there may be consequences. None of the cases that I am familiar with resulted in lawsuits however. The sellers walked and that was that. Or the buyers walked and that was that (although in those cases the buyers walked away from the deposit).

I would agree with malchior that if the sellers were outright putting that contingency in the contract - that's enough of a red flag to walk away as a measure of their lack of seriousness. But I've seen and heard enough buyer's woes to know that nothing is certain until you close.

And even then the seller might not leave.

[malchior]

I cannot be compelled to sell my house. I cannot compel you to buy my house. Both parties can walk away - even at the closing (I almost did, as a buyer and seller, on the same day).

Then I better get another lawyer because he walked me through a scenario that definitely included forcing the seller to sell. It is clearly one of my options should this go wrong. He did caution strongly that it is time consuming and not free so I'd have to have a good reason to do it. I would be better off either waiting for them to find a place or demand compensation for my costs. In addition, there are other things that can be done to compel a seller to deal with you. Prior to the lawsuit for damages/specific performance you can file a lis pendens with the county clerk and prevent them from transferring title pending the lawsuit. All things I don't want to do and hopefully won't even have to entertain.

[Smoove_B]

If these people are balking at selling their home because of a dog? Good lord. Walk away now. No home is worth dealing with what I'm sure will be a series of arguments over the actual sale of the home.

[malchior]

If these people are balking at selling their home because of a dog? Good lord. Walk away now. No home is worth dealing with what I'm sure will be a series of arguments over the actual sale of the home.

Absent them breaching by not showing at the closing I can't walk away now without taking a severe beating. The best part is the dog is literally barely alive. It is a 16-year old Irish setter. But it is probably bullshit anyway. They've made excuse after excuse about things that didn't stand up to a cursory check.

[Kelric]

Still no word on the short sale paperwork even having been submitted. Just riding it out for now.

My agent sent us a few more properties and we found one that the fiancee and I both liked via the pictures that is on the first floor and has a big back porch that looks private just to us as the second floor condo has their own tiny deck. I am not sure if this is true, though. It is two bedrooms, has a nice looking kitchen with granite counter tops and an island, with a bay window in the living room at the front of the house. The downside (there has to be one) is that it is a foreclosure, but from what I get reading the listing online it looks like a foreclosure that the bank has completely taken over and is now just ready to get rid of. My agent is waiting for details from the listing agent and is trying to set up a viewing for this week. If it is 90% as nice as the short sale, we'll probably make an offer and pull the short sale offer. If the bank doesn't want to negotiate on price, it would be the same price I was willing to pay for the short sale so that would work out rather well.

[RunningMn9]

I cannot be compelled to sell my house. I cannot compel you to buy my house. Both parties can walk away - even at the closing (I almost did, as a buyer and seller, on the same day).

Then I better get another lawyer because he walked me through a scenario that definitely included forcing the seller to sell. It is clearly one of my options should this go wrong. He did caution strongly that it is time consuming and not free so I'd have to have a good reason to do it. I would be better off either waiting for them to find a place or demand compensation for my costs. In addition, there are other things that can be done to compel a seller to deal with you. Prior to the lawsuit for damages/specific performance you can file a lis pendens with the county clerk and prevent them from transferring title pending the lawsuit. All things I don't want to do and hopefully won't even have to entertain.

Your lawyer is being your lawyer. *Technically* he's correct. If the seller is in breach of the contract, the buyer CAN sue for specific performance to compel the seller to execute the contract.

But should the situation arise, your lawyer will or should warn you that the process can be dragged out for years, and you may not win (if this is the seller's only residence). The courts will warn you to work it out amongst yourselves.

Since the buyer puts up a deposit to hold him to the deal, if the seller wants an explicit out in the contract, tell them you'll be happy to agree to that if they put $10k in escrow that becomes yours if they exercise that clause.

[malchior]

Your lawyer is being your lawyer. *Technically* he's correct. If the seller is in breach of the contract, the buyer CAN sue for specific performance to compel the seller to execute the contract.

But should the situation arise, your lawyer will or should warn you that the process can be dragged out for years, and you may not win (if this is the seller's only residence). The courts will warn you to work it out amongst yourselves.

Right which is pretty much what I was told. It was more of a play this card as incentive to just perform if cold feet were an issue. If you don't sell to me then I'll hold up you selling it to anybody. It really isn't germane anymore anyway. It came out over the weekend that these people in addition to the lien due to tax sale of their outstanding water bill also have a prior lien due to a tax sale for delinquent property taxes earlier in the year. They are clearly in a very bad place so I am not so much worried about their desire to sell at this point. Rather I'm concerned they might not have the credit or required deposit to secure their rental -- dog or no dog. Also, there were some repairs (e.g. carpenter ant treatment/repairs) that are required for the mortgage. I'm hoping that doesn't become an issue.

[Kelric]

Still no word on the short sale paperwork even having been submitted. Just riding it out for now.

My agent sent us a few more properties and we found one that the fiancee and I both liked via the pictures that is on the first floor and has a big back porch that looks private just to us as the second floor condo has their own tiny deck.... If it is 90% as nice as the short sale, we'll probably make an offer and pull the short sale offer. If the bank doesn't want to negotiate on price, it would be the same price I was willing to pay for the short sale so that would work out rather well.

The new one we liked is now under agreement with someone else. Bastards. The short sale now has someone assigned to it at Wells Fargo to process the paperwork, so maybe some day this year they'll get sale agreement from Wells Fargo and we can get our offer in right away on it.

[malchior]

I'm pretty fed up with these people so who knows what happens. They dragged their feet on the pool inspection for weeks, eventually they gave us the go ahead to inspect and we got there and the pool wasn't ready for inspection. On top of that the owner hid from us. My inspector got there a little early and talked to the guy. I showed up five minutes later and a kid lets us in and tells us that he had left. I guess he teleported away.

So the last few weeks have been unbelievably stressful. We asked for some minor repairs based on the pool inspection and they flat out rejected them claiming poverty. As I said they were minor so I proposed I'd spend a couple of hundred dollars to hire an electrician to just make sure we aren't stepping into a huge problem.

Our suspicions were raised since they were already bringing in an electrician and we requested that they just add on the three other circuits that had obvious issues (open electrical boxes) and circuits that didn't have power to them. We saw that as a minor request that might have added an hour or two to the job. The irony is that they could have avoided the whole issue by slapping a $2 cover on the open electrical box. I personally think any sane person would have been WTF is up with open electrical boxes by a pool and a random wire sticking out of the ground but they are acting like we are being completely unreasonable. I proposed that I would hire an electrician and have them come out and just verify that there aren't any major issues and they agreed. I took a couple of days and they started harassing my agent about when I would get a guy in. I then proposed dates and times and they responded that they weren't available for any of them.

Consequently, we are on the verge of telling them to pound salt. Their cumulative conduct has been reprehensible considering the cost of the house we are talking about. However, the house is priced right and the neighborhood is excellent so I'm willing to overlook that these people are terrible but they are really trying my patience.

[Zaxxon]

Dude, you need to let this house go. Given these owners, there is virtually no chance that everything works out smoothly for you over the next several years in that house.

[LordMortis]

I pushed a little this morning and my lawyer got a verbal response that we are under contract so I'm scheduling inspections. I'm 50% of the way there now.

These are the same sellers who wouldn't move out because of dog? Fuck that noise.

[$iljanus]

Dude, you need to let this house go. Given these owners, there is virtually no chance that everything works out smoothly for you over the next several years in that house.

+1

Regardless, I hope it all works out for you!

[Smoove_B]

No, no. I'm sure everything is going to go perfectly from now on. Somehow they got the message that you really want this house and I'm guessing they're hoping you'll throw them some extra cash to speed things up...or ignore problems as they continue to drag their feet. You've lost whatever advantage you had as a buyer and now they're going to slowly chip away at your sanity.

[$iljanus]

Malchior, have you ever seen Breaking Bad? A piece of advice from Walter White:

WALTER WHITE
A blowfish, think about it. Small in stature, not swift, not cunning, easy prey for predators, but the blowfish has a secret weapon, doesn't he? Doesn't he? What does the blowfish do, Melchior? What does the blowfish do?
MALCHIOR
I don't even know what...
WALTER WHITE
The blowfish puffs up, okay? The blowfish puffs himself up four, five times larger than normal but why? Why does he do that? Because it makes him intimidating, that's why. Initimidating so that the other scarier fish are scared off and that's you. You are a blowfish. Don't you see? It's just all, all an illusion. It's nothing but air. Now, who messes with the blowfish, Malchior?
MALCHIOR
Nobody.
WALTER WHITE
You're damn right.
MALCHIOR
I'm a blowfish.
WALTER WHITE
A blowfish. Say it again.
MALCHIOR
A blowfish!
WALTER WHITE
Say it like you mean it!
MALCHIOR
I'M A BLOWFISH! BLOWFISH! YEEEAAAH! BLOWFISHIN' THIS UP!

NOW GO GET EM! YEAAAAAAAAAH!

[Octavious]

Good luck we're all counting on you. All I keep on hearing is that there's a pool. Madelynn has 3 bathing suits all ready to go.

[Smoove_B]

Personally I wouldn't go near that pool -- sounds like an electrocution waiting to happen

/runs out of thread

[Octavious]

Personally I wouldn't go near that pool -- sounds like an electrocution waiting to happen

/runs out of thread

You should write a book. "1,000 terrifying facts by Smoove" or something like that.

[malchior]

No, no. I'm sure everything is going to go perfectly from now on. Somehow they got the message that you really want this house and I'm guessing they're hoping you'll throw them some extra cash to speed things up...or ignore problems as they continue to drag their feet. You've lost whatever advantage you had as a buyer and now they're going to slowly chip away at your sanity.

Actually I just talked to my lawyer about outs and he qualified everything but we definitely have some room there. He is likely going to send over a letter to document the conduct and clear the way to walk away at the table. I actually expect based on their finances that they will not do the agreed repairs. That'll likely be the cleanest way out of the whole thing if we choose to go that way. If they do the repairs as agreed then it becomes pretty murky. There is a big deposit at stake here so I have to be sure before we walk away.

The funny thing is that I suspect the real problem is that the seller's expect us to walk away and truly are broke and desperate. The multiple liens indicate that. And their crazy chasing us down to make sure we do our due diligence ASAP indicate that as well. Their agent told us (via my agent) that they really are concerned that we are going to walk away. Like a crazy girlfriend sometimes they just push you away with the crazy.

Whatever. Like anything else the cover-up is probably worse than the actual crime. When I described it to the electrician he said that it is pretty common for outside circuits to be in pretty rough shape. He said it was unlikely for their to be expensive problems since there are usually only a few circuits outdoors in these situations but obviously he really needed to see it.

[Carpet_pissr]

Their cumulative conduct has been reprehensible considering the cost of the house we are talking about.

You've mentioned this a couple of times, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Specifically, what does the cost of the house have to do with the relative shittiness of the owners?

[Isgrimnur]

Would you expect the owners in the rich neighborhood or the poor neighborhood to be shittier?

[Zaxxon]

Would you expect the owners in the rich neighborhood or the poor neighborhood to be shittier?

You might be surprised.

[Isgrimnur]

I worked in call centers for 11 years. People from any demographic being shitty doesn't surprise me. Iirc, one of the tropes about the worst people to deal with when I was growing up were military officers' wives.

[Carpet_pissr]

Would you expect the owners in the rich neighborhood or the poor neighborhood to be shittier?

Well, when you put it that way, definitely The Poor(TM), because everyone knows they are shittier than The Rich(TM).

Don't want to derail, I was honestly curious if he may be getting a real steal here, or is buying very low or very high...and because of one of those extremes, thinks the behavior should be different. I submit that you can get shitty BEHAVIOR by sellers in ANY income bracket, for a lot of reasons, and not all of them are "because the sellers are just assholes (not saying that's not the case here, as it well may be)".

Bankruptcy, divorce settlements or requirements, and a whole slew of "other stuff" make people act crazy and irrational sometimes, and considering the effects of the housing bubble and crash over the past few years, there's a lot of crazy out there right now.

[malchior]

You've mentioned this a couple of times, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Specifically, what does the cost of the house have to do with the relative shittiness of the owners?

I can understand the confusion since there are key pieces missing to the story. IMO, when you are looking to buy a 400K+ house they shouldn't be balking at paying a guy $200 to give an all-clear on a circuit. It just looks petty and stupid. Especially when I know they have a ton of equity in the house and have an open line of credit on the house that is largely untapped. We know the mortgage payoff, etc. for closing purposes.

So while they are cash-poor now, they will be fine as long as we actually complete the transaction. Complaining about being broke and not doing simple things knowing that we have these facts is plain insulting. We were willing to let some things slide but since the first inspection we have been holding their feet to the fire and they clearly resent it. But this is an expensive property and we have to be comfortable with the risks we are taking on. I feel like anyone spending this kind of money would ask the same questions of these people but their responses always give the sense that we are the ones being the problem. Is that middlemen distorting the message? Perhaps but it is infuriating because they easily could have avoided 50% of these problems via common sense and dialog. Instead they act like divas or allow themselves to be portrayed that way.

To further clarify, I felt like at this price range I'd have to be dealing with relatively reasonable people; instead, it is like dealing with a cast member of the Jersey Shore. I met the guy during the pool inspection and that isn't too far off the mark.

[Octavious]

400K? Have fun with the property taxes on that badboy. The one guy at work is now at like 13K a year.

[malchior]

400K? Have fun with the property taxes on that badboy. The one guy at work is now at like 13K a year.

That number isn't too far off the mark. I ran the numbers and we'd likely succeed at a tax appeal and drop it a couple of grand.

[Carpet_pissr]

I can understand the confusion since there are key pieces missing to the story. IMO, when you are looking to buy a 400K+ house they shouldn't be balking at paying a guy $200 to give an all-clear on a circuit. It just looks petty and stupid. Especially when I know they have a ton of equity in the house and have an open line of credit on the house that is largely untapped. We know the mortgage payoff, etc. for closing purposes.

Ah, ok, understood. And agree completely.

If you are getting this much push back now, think about the closing?! I know you are already in deep with this house, these sellers, but man...better to break it off now than at the closing table IMO.

[malchior]

Ah, ok, understood. And agree completely.

If you are getting this much push back now, think about the closing?! I know you are already in deep with this house, these sellers, but man...better to break it off now than at the closing table IMO.

My lawyer's take was the opposite. We're going to lay the paper trail; basically aside for this electrician we've put out all the money we'll have to before the closing. I still want the house. The problems are probably minor and we have to expect their to be problems. I'd love for them to get their act together, do the agreed upon repairs and we'll be buying a great house at a very good price (compared to the appraisal). There is a lot of upside here. It just sucks to pay out assholes.

[Carpet_pissr]

My lawyer's take was the opposite.

Well, you wouldn't be paying him the big bucks if you could get good free advice on OO, now would you?

Also, is this your first house buying experience? My theory is that problems/perceptions get amplified by first timers since they rarely know how complicated/stressful a process it can be.

[malchior]

Also, is this your first house buying experience? My theory is that problems/perceptions get amplified by first timers since they rarely know how complicated/stressful a process it can be.

It is the first time but everyone I talk to about this says that this has been an extremely bad run. We've been at this about 4 months now and it has been nothing but constant problems. Nothing and I mean nothing has been effort-free. I get that it is complicated and these people are selling their home at the price they bought it for 10 years ago but that doesn't give them a free pass to be bastards. The only reason we've stuck it out is because it is still a good deal. If it wasn't and we could get away clean, it would have been long in the rear-view by now.

Considering their posture I am however preparing for that possibility. They have demonstrated a pattern of not acting in good faith and if they continue to thwart my efforts to do basic due diligence then I won't hesitate to exercise my options. It's ridiculous that we are even there but this situation is beyond absurd.

[malchior]

Oh it gets better! Today my lawyer called me because now the seller is claiming he has major surgery scheduled for the end of the month and needs recovery time before moving. He got the request letter from the other side and his response was...I don't want to tell you what to do but my recommendation is to say fuck you. I'm guessing his actual response will be more professional.

[Zaxxon]

EJECT! EJECT!

[LordMortis]

Oh it gets better! Today my lawyer called me because now the seller is claiming he has major surgery scheduled for the end of the month and needs recovery time before moving. He got the request letter from the other side and his response was...I don't want to tell you what to do but my recommendation is to say fuck you. I'm guessing his actual response will be more professional.

Or they could move before the end of the month and he could recover after moving. If you were 50% of the way done on June 7th, does that mean you started the process in early April? Or did you start earlier and are counting on this going into September? Are your kids school aged?