We Are ... Horrified

[Smoove_B]

Email...it always comes back to email...

Curley writes to Penn State's president Spanier that he wants to meet with Sandusky, tell him there's "a problem," and that "we want to assist the individual to get professional help."

In the same purported e-mail provided to CNN, Curley goes on to suggest that if Sandusky "is cooperative," Penn State "would work with him" to tell Second Mile. If not, Curley states, the university will inform both Second Mile and outside authorities.

...

Curley's grand jury testimony also appears inconsistent with the e-mails. In the messages, he refers to "a first situation" in 1998, yet he told a grand jury he wasn't aware of any other allegations of alleged sexual conduct involving Sandusky.

A prosecutor asked Curley: "Specifically, a 1998 report, did you know anything about that in 2002?" Curley responded: "No, ma'am."

Schultz and Curley, through their lawyers, consistently maintain McQueary didn't tell them about a sexual assault in 2001, and instead said McQueary described "inappropriate conduct" or horsing around.

[Lorini]

I don't see how the football program survives after those emails. Oh well, there goes $50M per year down the drain that the taxpayers and/or the students will have to replace. Or maybe it will survive after they purge everyone who was even remotely associated with the football program. Those guys need to be put in jail for nearly as long as Sandusky for not reporting for so long...that's just disgusting.

[Grundbegriff]

Or maybe they'll route all that money toward education rather than sports. Or maybe pigskins will fly.

[Lorini]

The football program brings in approximately $50M a year. I think if the University doesn't shut it down, the NCAA will give it a death sentence anyway, so they will have to find another way to get $50M. Perhaps they should make dart boards with these guys' faces and sell those, they should get a fair amount for that.

[Mr. Fed]

In a more civilized society, these Penn State officials would settle their affairs, bid their families farewell, then commit seppuku.

[rshetts2]

Giving the football program the axe would be a knee jerk reaction. Yes the individuals involved need to be punished but to whack the entire program over this would punish way too many innocent people, including players themselves, the student body of Penn State and fans nation wide. Unless of course you think we should abolish Catholicism, as well, considering the actions of several priests.

[gameoverman]

I also think abolishing football there doesn't really serve a purpose in this.

What I would do is remove all traces of the Sandusky/Paterno era from the university facilities and related items. That statue of Paterno? Gone.

The lesson being to the coaches that yes, it will ALL disappear, every last thing you worked for, if this kind of thing is tolerated. The lesson to the students? Your football team lives on and doesn't get the blame for what the coaches did.

Exceptions would be for certain key items that may have Paterno's name engraved or otherwise not removable without destroying the school's trophy or whatever.

[Sarkus]

The football program brings in approximately $50M a year. I think if the University doesn't shut it down, the NCAA will give it a death sentence anyway, so they will have to find another way to get $50M. Perhaps they should make dart boards with these guys' faces and sell those, they should get a fair amount for that.

Under what grounds would the NCAA shut the football program down or give them sanctions? These aren't NCAA rules violations we are talking about here, which is what the NCAA has authority over. Plus at this point everyone involved is gone anyway. If anything the board of regents needs to applauded for acting decisively as they did last year when we didn't even know all the details.

Its a horrible horrible case and certainly Penn State will pay a justifiably high price. But that has nothing to do with its alumni or students. And the failures in this case go way beyond Penn State, even if that is where the attention has been. After all, Penn State was only aware of some of the many victims involved. A lot of other people made bad decisions as well over the years.

[Holman]

It would be interesting to see what the death of football program might mean for a university that has built so much of its aura around athletics. I'm not predicting that this *will* be the death of the program, but has anything else come this close?

As you may know, I grew up in Alabama and Georgia, where they take their college football pretty seriously. I went to Michigan for grad school, and I couldn't help noticing that Michigan plays football too. Now I'm in Philadelphia, and while I don't get the impression that Penn State football weighs as much as Alabama or Michigan, it's still a pretty big deal. I'm sure a lot of kids have chosen Penn State just to be a part of the Paterno scene. If Paterno's legacy goes down in shame, how will this affect other aspects of the university?

[Lorini]

On my tablet but I basically agree with this guy.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -state-pay

It's a matter of exerting instructional control, which they didn't do, which is an NCAA violation which I'm pretty sure USC was cited for as well.

[Sarkus]

On my tablet but I basically agree with this guy.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -state-pay

It's a matter of exerting instructional control, which they didn't do, which is an NCAA violation which I'm pretty sure USC was cited for as well.

Who does that punish, though? Like I said above, all the decision makers are gone. The president, the AD, etc. Penn State will end up paying millions in civil lawsuits. If that doesn't convince other universities to make sure they don't put football above morality nothing ever will. In the light of that a bowl ban isn't going to be anything significant. So you end up punishing the students, the alumni who had nothing to do with this, and a whole set of decision makers who weren't even there when this was happening. Why? Just because it makes us feel good that we made "them" pay when "them" aren't the guilty parties? And its not like Penn State football is likely to be any good for a few years anyway, making penalties more show then anything else.

This is different than USC or almost any other significant NCAA violation situation. When those happen the coaches might leave, and sometimes the AD, but most of the rest of the people involved continue on. In USC's case the coach walked away on his own and the AD wasn't even fired (even if he did eventually leave as well). You can't compare that to a president, AD, and head coach being fired.

I'm all for the NCAA blowing up sports programs for sports violations. This isn't a sports violation, its an instituational ethical disaster. That is where law enforcement, the courts, and the state of Pennsylvania are responsible for dealing out the penalties.

[rshetts2]

On my tablet but I basically agree with this guy.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootbal ... -state-pay

It's a matter of exerting instructional control, which they didn't do, which is an NCAA violation which I'm pretty sure USC was cited for as well.

I believe the term youre looking for is institutional control.
Regardless I still disagree. This attitude is way to pervasive today. Why dont we just nuke Penn State and solve the whole problem? Your "solution" is to punish tens of thousands to deal with a few. Do you seriously think Penn State is not going to pay for this? Those involved will be facing both criminal and civil charges and the damages financially to Penn State will be severe. You position smacks of revenge, not justice.
I hope Sandusky never sees the outside of prison again. I hope everyone involved in covering up his heinous activities also does serious time. I hope that the institutions involved, both Penn State and The Second Mile both face severe financial punishment. I hope the NCAA does indeed sanction Penn State under the institutional control clause. There is justice in that. Killing the football program, though? Wheres the justice in that? Once again, would you abolish Catholicism over the actions and associated cover up involving a few priests?

Oh and to be clear, I have no connections to Penn State. I am from Michigan and have no ties to Penn State at all. I just feel that punishing 1000's to reach a few culprits is reactionary, lazy "justice". I get that people want their pound of flesh, feel free to take it from those responsible.

[Lorini]

Like I said, I was on a tablet, so yes, I thought I typed institutional control but thanks to Apple's always helpful auto-correct it came out wrong .

No, I don't agree. Basically the NCAA gave USC the death sentence over stuff that was not directly sports related. The USC community, as well as the LA community suffered from this. I'm still not seeing the difference here, and frankly if the NCAA lets the Penn State program walk, they need to be investigated by Congress for unfairness. It wasn't fair to the USC students either, why should the Penn State students be exempt? USC would have and did replace the football coach as well as the AD.

I'm sorry if I implied they should kill the whole program, I don't want that and didn't mean that. That actually also punishes the taxpayers who support Penn State as well. I'm only saying if the NCAA is going to punish SC then they need to punish Penn State as well.

[Sarkus]

Like I said, I was on a tablet, so yes, I thought I typed institutional control but thanks to Apple's always helpful auto-correct it came out wrong .

No, I don't agree. Basically the NCAA gave USC the death sentence over stuff that was not directly sports related. The USC community, as well as the LA community suffered from this. I'm still not seeing the difference here, and frankly if the NCAA lets the Penn State program walk, they need to be investigated by Congress for unfairness. It wasn't fair to the USC students either, why should the Penn State students be exempt? USC would have and did replace the football coach as well as the AD.

I'm sorry if I implied they should kill the whole program, I don't want that and didn't mean that. That actually also punishes the taxpayers who support Penn State as well. I'm only saying if the NCAA is going to punish SC then they need to punish Penn State as well.

How is the USC stuff not directly sports related? The whole reason the NCAA exists is to make sure athletic programs are competing on a level playing field and ensure student safety. Any time a student athlete receives improper benefits (like Reggie Bush did, or indirectly like his parents did, which influences him) or anytime recruiting violations occur that might give a particular school an advantage in recruiting then the NCAA should act. I agree the NCAA went too far with USC, but that was still clearly a case where their athletic programs were potentiallly getting an advantage. You can't say that with Penn State - nothing in the Sandusky case involves Penn State getting any sports advantage, which is why I don't see where the NCAA has any relevant reason to penalize the football program. And as for coaches and ADs being held accountable, nothing happened at USC until after the NCAA penalties came down. Compare that to Penn State where everyone involved was fired within a few weeks. Compare that to a sexual abuse by football players case at the University of Montana last fall where the head coach and AD were fired by the school president as soon as he realized the scope of the problem. USC dragged their feet and looked the other way in the Bush case for years and that is at least part of the reason why their penalties were so severe.

Yes, you can point to general aspects of NCAA rules justifying bowl bans and scholarship losses for the football team, but the real question in this case is this - if Sandusky had been a former professor who did this on campus and it was covered up, but with no involvement of any former coach, AD, etc., would you expect the NCAA to penalize Penn State? I don't think anyone would make that argument. And if the NCAA does penalize Penn State over this, do they penalize all the athletic programs? After all, if its institutional lack of control that is being argued, that should mean that not only football but other sports should be penalized. It wasn't just the football head coach who was involved here. Instead we have people arguing that only one sport should be penalized because this case involved the former head coach who decided with the former president, former AD, and former other high official to cover up what they knew.

[Zaxxon]

The whole reason the NCAA exists is to make sure athletic programs are competing on a level playing field.

This was way too hilarious not to quote for posterity.

[Lorini]

The Penn State Football Program was directly responsible for what happened in their locker rooms and on their campus. Not any professor, so the comparison doesn't make sense. If the football program had exerted proper institutional control, Sandusky would have been thrown off the campus a long time ago. But instead, they did not exert proper institutional control, they allowed a pedophile to use their facilities for illegal activities, not to mention heinous and immoral as well. How can the NCAA sanction that? Would you agree that if some previous defensive coach at UW used the UW football facilities to sell drugs, that the NCAA shouldn't get involved in that as well, if there was an appearance that the football program knew about it and looked the other way? All football programs, whether they be high school, college, or NFL are responsible for what goes on in their facilities. When they look the other way to a crime, particularly a crime involving children, that's the very definition of lack of institutional control. And if NCAA says that they can punish colleges for 'lack of institutional control', as they did USC, then there's no question in my mind that the NCAA must punish Penn State.

And to make it clear, I think the NCAA is the embodiment of an organization that is intent on making sure everyone knows who's boss. If I had my way, the Pac-12 would leave them, create their own governing body, have the Rose Bowl as their annual tournament bowl, and leave the stupid NCAA behind. But unfortunately that will never happen, so in the meantime the NCAA damn well better be fair.

[Inverarity]

The NCAA certainly feels it has the authority to act, based on the letter it sent to PSU. There are ethical expectations of membership.

And based on that criteria, the death penalty sounds completely reasonable to me. Or at least, I haven't heard a compelling argument against it. Shut the whole program down and we'll see you in 5-10 years. Would it punish people who had nothing to do with this cover up? Absolutely. But it would also send a clear message to future institutions who employ an administrator with a moral compass so broken he thinks covering up child rape is a viable course of action: to do so is to kill the program.

Once again, would you abolish Catholicism over the actions and associated cover up involving a few priests?

Your analogy is flawed. No one is suggesting that NCAA football as a whole should be abolished. But the church that covered for the priest who raped some alter boys? Maybe I could make that argument if it seemed like the Vatican might be close to handing down a punishment. Unfortunately, it seems they have no ethical expectation of their members akin to the standards of the NCAA.

[Skinypupy]

The whole reason the NCAA exists is to make sure athletic programs are competing on a level playing field.

This was way too hilarious not to quote for posterity.

[LawBeefaroni]

Playing football isn't a basic right for college students. A football program isn't the primary foundation of a University. If the Penn State football program is responsible for enabling Sandusky, it should be burned to the ground. Sure the rank and file who may have done nothing wrong might be "punished unfairly" but there are other schools and other programs. They'll live. They might even have a place in a new program at Penn State.

In the long term it's the best for the school and any future football there. I just don't see how it can go on without a real reboot, not just a symbolic one.

[LordMortis]

Once again, would you abolish Catholicism over the actions and associated cover up involving a few priests?

Wouldn't that be more akin to abolishing either Penn State or the NCAA? Even then the analogy fails. Even if you scale it down to dismantling the Catholic Church, it doesn't fit.

I don't know about abolishing the program but Penn State should allow all program students to transfer and all scholarship students to bow out of the program with scholarships in tact.

The whole reason the NCAA exists is to make sure athletic programs are competing on a level playing field and ensure student safety.

Which IMO, puts in well within the NCAA rights to revoke Penn State's entry (or football program) from the NCAA. I don't know that they should but it's within their rights to review the situation and react. Which should put a burden on the college to do the right thing. I don't see any of that happening. I think there will be a business decision that shows that revenue is too important.

Playing football isn't a basic right for college students. A football program isn't the primary foundation of a University. If the Penn State football program is responsible for enabling Sandusky, it should be burned to the ground. Sure the rank and file who may have done nothing wrong might be "punished unfairly" but there are other schools and other programs. They'll live. They might even have a place in a new program at Penn State.

In the long term it's the best for the school and any future football there. I just don't see how it can go on without a real reboot, not just a symbolic one.

I concur. Penn State should voluntarily burn it down for four years, IMO. Long enough for the freshman class of today to graduate and for HS kids of today to not be tarnished by begin a part of it. I don't see it happening but then I don't have any children bound for Penn State and I'm not an alumni writing them checks, so my opinion matters little.

[rshetts2]

Once again, would you abolish Catholicism over the actions and associated cover up involving a few priests?

Wouldn't that be more akin to abolishing either Penn State or the NCAA? Even then the analogy fails. Even if you scale it down to dismantling the Catholic Church, it doesn't fit.

Yes it was an exaggeration to make a point, like youve never done that before. Youre welcome to split hairs if you want and Ill be happy to change my example to to abolishing catholicism on a local level if that helps. The point is that burning down the football program is an act of vengeance, not justice.
I do believe, as Ive previously mentioned, that NCAA sanctions are warranted based on lack of institutional control. Still, shutting the program down completely punishes far too many people. It would eliminate many peoples incomes. The vast majority of those have no culpability here. I cannot advocate shotgun justice, theres too much collateral damage. What Sandusky did is heinous as is the actions of those involved in the cover up. They should definitely punish those responsible. Burning down the football program doesnt accomplish that.

[Smoove_B]

I can only imagine how much money the football program has funneled into Penn State since the late 1990s and they should absolutely be punished as an organization and institution if it can be demonstrated they were involved in covering up the abuse. It doesn't matter if we're talking about a NCAA football program, shift work at Krogers or the Catholic Church. Whatever "culture" allowed this to happen needs to be purged from the system.

[hepcat]

Once again, would you abolish Catholicism over the actions and associated cover up involving a few priests?

Wouldn't that be more akin to abolishing either Penn State or the NCAA? Even then the analogy fails. Even if you scale it down to dismantling the Catholic Church, it doesn't fit.

Yes it was an exaggeration to make a point, like youve never done that before. Youre welcome to split hairs if you want and Ill be happy to change my example to to abolishing catholicism on a local level if that helps. The point is that burning down the football program is an act of vengeance, not justice.

It would be more like abolishing a Sunday School Program within a local Catholic Church. I think you're overemphasizing the scale for affect.

And sometimes vengeance and justice go hand in hand. But again, scale is the key here. If we lined up the perps in this travesty and shot them through the head, that would be vengeance on a scale I couldn't agree with. Disbanding the association they mismanaged to such a tragic degree though? I'm good with that....

At the end of the day, an example has to be made, imho.

[Scuzz]

Why should the NCAA do anything in this instance to the football team? The argument about "institutional control" truly no longer exists as all the main characters are already gone. The violator, the coach, the athletic director, the president of the school. Why hurt the athletes who actually had nothing to do with this? If ever there was a circumstance where the school administration was at fault and needed replacing it was this one and that has already happened.

[Isgrimnur]

The NCAA drops punishment on schools while letting the coaches and administrators walk away scot free to other programs.

[hepcat]

I think at least a break to reassess the way things are done and to set up an oversight committee (or some other system of checks and balance) is not too much to ask in light of what has just transpired.

Ultimately, I think that the football program at Penn State (and most colleges) has become too much of a business and it's overshadowing the primary goal of these institutions. I can't think of any way of stopping that, though. And I'm not sure if it should be completely stopped as it does give the schools needed funds for other areas. I just think it needs to be examined a little more closely in order to find the holes that need plugged. Let's start with Penn State is all I'm saying.

[hepcat]

....aaaannnndddd there goes Paterno's legacy.

Spanier and Paterno were forced out of their jobs after Sandusky was arrested last fall. Curley and Schultz are awaiting trial on charges of perjury and failing to report the abuse to outside officials.

All four knew of a 1998 investigation into Sandusky, the report pointed out, but none alerted university trustees or took any action against Sandusky. Those reports never led to any criminal charges against Sandusky.

“The evidence shows that these four men also knew about a 1998 criminal investigation of Sandusky relating to suspected sexual misconduct with a young boy in a Penn State football locker room shower,” according to Freeh, who was hired by the university to investigate how the school handled reports that Sandusky had abused children.

“Again, they showed no concern about that victim. The evidence shows that Mr. Paterno was made aware of the 1998 investigation of Sandusky, followed it closely, but failed to take any action, even though Sandusky had been a key member of his coaching staff for almost 30 years, and had an office just steps away from Mr. Paterno’s. At the very least, Mr. Paterno could have alerted the entire football staff, in order to prevent Sandusky from bringing another child” to the campus, Freeh said.

Perhaps more damaging for the university, which is expected to face a barrage of civil lawsuits from Sandusky’s victims, are the events of Feb 9, 2001, when a former graduate assistant, Mike McQueary, returned to the football training facilities. At Sandusky’s trial, McQueary testified he saw the former coach engaging in what he thought was a sex act with a boy of 10 to 12 years old. McQueary went to Paterno and told of what he saw.

Paterno then went to his superiors, who decided not to call in outside authorities. Freeh was sharply critical of that decision and said the action to keep the reports internal was due to Paterno, who convinced other officials not to take action outside of the university.

“In critical written correspondence that we uncovered on March 20th of this year, we see evidence ... that included reporting allegations about Sandusky to the authorities,” Freeh stated.

“After Mr. Curley consulted with Mr. Paterno, however, they changed the plan and decided not to make a report to the authorities. Their failure to protect the February 9, 2001 child victim, or make attempts to identify him, created a dangerous situation for other unknown, unsuspecting young boys who were lured to the Penn State campus and football games by Sandusky and victimized repeatedly by him. Further, they exposed this child to additional harm by alerting Sandusky, who was the only one who knew the child’s identity,” Freeh said.

[Lassr]

Wow. Yeah, that completely destroys his legacy. I was hoping he was just a naive old man that thought he did what he could but this paints a whole different picture.

[RLMullen]

A consult with our resident former Federal prosecutor is needed...

It sounds like Spanier, Curley, and Paterno broke a few laws when and how they decided to cover up the 2001 incident. I'm thinking they broke some very big laws. There looks to be evidence for conspiracy, but conspiracy to do what?

[Smoove_B]

There looks to be evidence for conspiracy, but conspiracy to do what?

Shut up and make money (not sure what the technical legal term is). Can't wait to see the Paterno Apologists (tm) spin this one. He name and image should be scrubbed entirely from the university and maybe 25 years from now people will stop associating the Penn State name with institutionalized child abuse.

[Isgrimnur]

Accessory after the fact?

[hepcat]

On a side note, I wonder if Penn State is trying to get their money back for that internal investigation.

I honestly expected a white wash in the form of that report

[LawBeefaroni]

Our most saddening and sobering finding is the total disregard for the safety and welfare of Sandusky's child victims by the most senior leaders at Penn State. The most powerful men at Penn State failed to take any steps for 14 years to protect the children who Sandusky victimized. Messrs. Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley never demonstrated, through actions or words, any concern for the safety and well-being of Sandusky's victims until after Sandusky's arrest.

In critical written correspondence that we uncovered on March 20th of this year, we see evidence of their proposed plan of action in February 2001 that included reporting allegations about Sandusky to the authorities. After Mr. Curley consulted with Mr. Paterno, however, they changed the plan and decided not to make a report to the authorities. Their failure to protect the February 9, 2001 child victim, or make attempts to identify him, created a dangerous situation for other unknown, unsuspecting young boys who were lured to the Penn State campus and football games by Sandusky and victimized repeatedly by him.

Further, they exposed this child to additional harm by alerting Sandusky, who was the only one who knew the child's identity, about what McQueary saw in the shower on the night of February 9, 2001.

It goes on with more damning conclusions.

[Newcastle]

I really dont see how they cant give the football program a serious death penalty. Whether through NCAA, Penn. lawmakers, or the University. I mean not just a death penalty of 3-5 years. Something big, something that will stick in the collective conscious of not only the locals but nationwide. I'm talking in the range of 15-20 years. A stark reminder that child abuse WILL NEVER be tolerated. The ban has to be generational in scope.

So that next time someone, somewhere in this country comes across a situation like this will make the right choice. So that they wont think they can hide it. Hopefully they will make the right choice because it is the right choice but at least one of the arguments running in their mind will at least be: "if i dont do the right thing, my University will have their program nuked to the ground."

[Paingod]

It's the only way to be sure.

[hepcat]

At the very least, the culture of college sports needs to be examined and adjusted. I'm not sure, as I mentioned earlier, that I'm for the complete destruction of the program. The collateral damage would be too great, imho. But this should spur the university to make some major changes, a suspension of the program perhaps. It should also give a heads up to NCAA that they need to step up their game as well.

[Sarkus]

I really dont see how they cant give the football program a serious death penalty. Whether through NCAA, Penn. lawmakers, or the University. I mean not just a death penalty of 3-5 years. Something big, something that will stick in the collective conscious of not only the locals but nationwide. I'm talking in the range of 15-20 years. A stark reminder that child abuse WILL NEVER be tolerated. The ban has to be generational in scope.

So that next time someone, somewhere in this country comes across a situation like this will make the right choice. So that they wont think they can hide it. Hopefully they will make the right choice because it is the right choice but at least one of the arguments running in their mind will at least be: "if i dont do the right thing, my University will have their program nuked to the ground."

Right. Because another school looking at this will conclude that the millions and millions PSU is going to lose in the upcoming lawsuits will still have made it worthwhile but losing their football program, that would push it over the top in term of risk/reward analysis.

[hepcat]

...and we have rolly eyes. Was that necessary?

[gbasden]

Right. Because another school looking at this will conclude that the millions and millions PSU is going to lose in the upcoming lawsuits will still have made it worthwhile but losing their football program, that would push it over the top in term of risk/reward analysis.

How many millions and millions are they making each year on their football program again?

[tjg_marantz]

I really dont see how they cant give the football program a serious death penalty. Whether through NCAA, Penn. lawmakers, or the University. I mean not just a death penalty of 3-5 years. Something big, something that will stick in the collective conscious of not only the locals but nationwide. I'm talking in the range of 15-20 years. A stark reminder that child abuse WILL NEVER be tolerated. The ban has to be generational in scope.

So that next time someone, somewhere in this country comes across a situation like this will make the right choice. So that they wont think they can hide it. Hopefully they will make the right choice because it is the right choice but at least one of the arguments running in their mind will at least be: "if i dont do the right thing, my University will have their program nuked to the ground."

Right. Because another school looking at this will conclude that the millions and millions PSU is going to lose in the upcoming lawsuits will still have made it worthwhile but losing their football program, that would push it over the top in term of risk/reward analysis.

Funnily enough, yeah. It might. Put your roll eyes away, you may need them later.