Scottish Independence?

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Dirt
Posts: 11025
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:17 am

Scottish Independence?

Post by Dirt »

Ah, democracy at work. I imagine if Scotland get's independence, Northern Ireland will want the same.
A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel.
-Robert Frost
User avatar
tjg_marantz
Posts: 14692
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Queen City, SK

Post by tjg_marantz »

R&P no?

Did he wrenched apart? While more than half want it. Not quite a wrenching is it?
Home of the Akimbo AWPs
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 53842
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Post by hepcat »

I always thought "Scottish Independence" meant driving yourself to the liquor store?
Lord of His Pants
User avatar
pr0ner
Posts: 17503
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, VA
Contact:

Post by pr0ner »

I think this will be moved to R&P in short order.

And then Dirt will explode again.
Hodor.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 45681
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Post by Blackhawk »

pr0ner wrote:I think this will be moved to R&P in short order.

And then Dirt will explode again.
Isn't that the point?
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
User avatar
The Meal
Posts: 28097
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:33 pm
Location: 2005 Stanley Cup Champion

Post by The Meal »

Blackhawk wrote:
pr0ner wrote:I think this will be moved to R&P in short order.

And then Dirt will explode again.
Isn't that the point?
He begs for what he deserves.

~Neal
"Better to talk to people than communicate via tweet." — Elontra
Yankeeman84
Posts: 8657
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:47 pm

Post by Yankeeman84 »

If I have to fight to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom, I will.

Rule Britannia!
XBox Live Gamertag: Yankeeman84

GO HOKIES!!!

Virginia Tech Department of History
User avatar
Kelric
Posts: 30197
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Whip City

Post by Kelric »

Yankeeman84 wrote:If I have to fight to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom, I will.

Rule Britannia!
Yes, because we know how British you are. You and CSL, both. Terribly British.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41938
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by El Guapo »

Yankeeman84 wrote:If I have to fight to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom, I will.

Rule Britannia!
You may take their lives, YM, but you'll never take their freedom.
Yankeeman84
Posts: 8657
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:47 pm

Post by Yankeeman84 »

El Guapo wrote:
Yankeeman84 wrote:If I have to fight to keep Scotland part of the United Kingdom, I will.

Rule Britannia!
You may take their lives, YM, but you'll never take their freedom.
Watch me motherfucker!!!!!!!!
XBox Live Gamertag: Yankeeman84

GO HOKIES!!!

Virginia Tech Department of History
User avatar
ImLawBoy
Forum Admin
Posts: 15359
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Post by ImLawBoy »

Moving to R&P, as this one falls on the P side of things, methinks.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
User avatar
The Mad Hatter
Posts: 6322
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:36 am
Location: Funkytown

Post by The Mad Hatter »

ImLawBoy wrote:Moving to R&P, as this one falls on the P side of things, methinks.
Yes, and Dirt knows it too.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- George Orwell
User avatar
CSL
Posts: 6209
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm
Location: Brandon, Manitoba

Post by CSL »

REX BRITANNIA!

UNITY OR DEATH!
User avatar
Samurai
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:35 pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Samurai »

So is dirt just refusing to post threads in R&P now?
User avatar
Grifman
Posts: 21723
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Grifman »

Dirt wrote:Ah, democracy at work. I imagine if Scotland get's independence, Northern Ireland will want the same.
No, Northern Ireland will never ask for this as the UK is their only protection from being swallowed up by the Irish Republic. The majority are staunch "Unionists".
User avatar
The Preacher
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13037
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:57 am

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by The Preacher »

Grifman wrote:
Dirt wrote:Ah, democracy at work. I imagine if Scotland get's independence, Northern Ireland will want the same.
No, Northern Ireland will never ask for this as the UK is their only protection from being swallowed up by the Irish Republic. The majority are staunch "Unionists".
I wouldn't say never. It's only something like 56/42 now and the greatest disparity is in the upper age brackets (the under 25 bracket is actually equally Protestant and Catholic). Furthermore, Catholics have higher birth rates. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, that much is true.

That said, the South has no desire to incorporate the North and its difficulties.
You do not take from this universe. It grants you what it will.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84642
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Almost six years on, the question will be settled in two more:
A deal setting out terms for a Scottish independence referendum has been signed by Prime Minister David Cameron and First Minister Alex Salmond.

The agreement, struck in Edinburgh, has paved the way for a vote in autumn 2014, with a single Yes/No question on Scotland leaving the UK.

It will also allow 16 and 17-year-olds to take part in the ballot.
:pop:
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
stessier
Posts: 30096
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: SC

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by stessier »

Interesting. That article didn't really say why they wanted to leave other than for "a brighter future". That seems a bit nebulous to me.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Running____2014: 1300.55 miles____2015: 2036.13 miles____2016: 1012.75 miles____2017: 1105.82 miles____2018: 1318.91 miles__2019: 2000.00 miles
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84642
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Looks like it's a continued march toward self rule. They only got their own parliament under the Scotland Act 1998.

They've published a white paper (PDF). The upshot seems to be the age-old story. We want to rule ourselves and we're convinced that we can do it better for ourselves than you (UK) can.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Freezer-TPF-
Posts: 12698
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:41 pm
Location: VA

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Freezer-TPF- »

I have a feeling The Proclaimers are behind this.
When the sun goes out, we'll have eight minutes to live.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84642
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Can you even walk 500 miles in Scotland?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
silverjon
Posts: 10781
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:16 pm
Location: Western Canuckistan

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by silverjon »

Isgrimnur wrote:Can you even walk 500 miles in Scotland?
In a straight line?

The whisky tells me it doesn't matter....
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84642
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Two weeks to go:

:pop:
According to ScotCen Social Research, an independent research institute in Edinburgh, the average of the most recent polls show about 42 percent voting yes to 48 percent no. Nearly 11 percent say they are undecided. A simple majority is needed for the referendum to pass.

On September 2, YouGov conducted a poll for the Sun newspaper that found the yes voters just 6 points behind the union supporters. That’s down from a 14-point split in late-August. The consensus is that the yes campaign is gaining votes, but not necessarily enough to win the election.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 29703
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Holman »

There's an interesting electoral dimension of this for Great Britain. Most Scots vote Labour, and pulling them out of the vote will make the surviving UK more Conservative.

I imagine this is why we don't see the Tories making more noise on this issue.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
AWS260
Posts: 12839
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:51 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by AWS260 »

Holman wrote:There's an interesting electoral dimension of this for Great Britain. Most Scots vote Labour, and pulling them out of the vote will make the surviving UK more Conservative.

I imagine this is why we don't see the Tories making more noise on this issue.
I think there's a more practical reason you don't hear much from the Tory side -- there are no prominent Scottish Conservatives whose voices would have any influence on the vote.
User avatar
Fireball
Posts: 4763
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:43 pm

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Fireball »

Independence would be so bad for everyone involved. I really hope Scotland votes "no".
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41938
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by El Guapo »

Fireball wrote:Independence would be so bad for everyone involved. I really hope Scotland votes "no".
Why do you think so? I'm hoping they vote "no" as well, mostly for sentimental reasons, but I don't have much of a handle on the practical impacts of independence for Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55867
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

El Guapo wrote:
Fireball wrote:Independence would be so bad for everyone involved. I really hope Scotland votes "no".
Why do you think so? I'm hoping they vote "no" as well, mostly for sentimental reasons, but I don't have much of a handle on the practical impacts of independence for Scotland and the rest of the UK.
I never got beyond the fact that economically, an independent Scotland would collapse. I mean start with the currency. Is there any reason to go further?
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Fireball
Posts: 4763
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:43 pm

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Fireball »

El Guapo wrote:
Fireball wrote:Independence would be so bad for everyone involved. I really hope Scotland votes "no".
Why do you think so? I'm hoping they vote "no" as well, mostly for sentimental reasons, but I don't have much of a handle on the practical impacts of independence for Scotland and the rest of the UK.
The "yes" people are assuming a lot of things, many of which I think are unfounded. They're presuming they can keep the Pound Sterling as their currency. They're presuming that the jilted UK would help the new Scotland become members of the EU. They're assuming that the way-left-of-center Scottish polity would actually favor the environmentally dangerous oil extraction efforts that would be needed to truly monetize the reserves off their northern shore. All three of these things have to go favorably for a newly-independent Scotland, or it will collapse economically. I think it's unlikely that they go 3 for 3 on these.

Scotland is completely reliant upon England, economically and militarily. It has no existing infrastructure nor the tax base to take on administration of health services, pension benefits, road maintenance, and other basic national government duties. The separatists are pushing the myth that the success of the devolved Scottish Parliament proves that they are ready to cut free of the "burden" of the UK, when in fact the UK national government still does most of the heavy, expense-laden lifting in Scotland.

Right now, Scotland has the best of both worlds: most day to day policy questions have been devolved to the local Parliament, so only Scottish elected officials get to vote on those matters. But Scotland also has a major say-so in UK-level policy, particularly under Labour governments, and even gets to vote on local English laws, as England itself has no devolved Parliament.

The fact that the separatists just hand wave away major questions about currency, EU accession, foreign policy, tax burdens, the role of the Monarchy, etc, is just proof that they're selling a bill of goods. They want to pretend that Scottish independence will lead to a life just like what Scots enjoy now, just without those annoying English butting their nose into things. They're not being honest with the electorate, and don't deserve their support.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41938
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by El Guapo »

Ok, yeah, sounds like a bad idea. :)

My assumption was that if Scotland went independent it would join the EU and adopt the Euro. Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU? Though in any event an independent Scotland that adopts the Euro would have less control over its currency than it does now, since the EU is a much bigger pond than the UK so its EU representatives would have even less clout.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Fireball
Posts: 4763
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:43 pm

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Fireball »

Practically, the UK could probably block Scotland from joining. And even if it didn't, accession to the EU would take several years, and adoption of the euro could take years more beyond that.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
The Bad Shepherd
Posts: 649
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:51 am
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by The Bad Shepherd »

I say let them leave so long as we can keep Peter Capaldi.
"Shepard." -Wrex
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55867
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

El Guapo wrote:Ok, yeah, sounds like a bad idea. :)

My assumption was that if Scotland went independent it would join the EU and adopt the Euro. Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU? Though in any event an independent Scotland that adopts the Euro would have less control over its currency than it does now, since the EU is a much bigger pond than the UK so its EU representatives would have even less clout.
Scotland has financials worse than Greece. Why would the EU take them? And even if they did, why would they do it within the next 5 years? The ECB is very risk-averse right now.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
AWS260
Posts: 12839
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:51 pm
Location: Brooklyn

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by AWS260 »

El Guapo wrote:Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU?
I think the louder objections would come from Spain, which has its own regions with dreams of independence. Precedent and whatnot.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41938
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by El Guapo »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Ok, yeah, sounds like a bad idea. :)

My assumption was that if Scotland went independent it would join the EU and adopt the Euro. Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU? Though in any event an independent Scotland that adopts the Euro would have less control over its currency than it does now, since the EU is a much bigger pond than the UK so its EU representatives would have even less clout.
Scotland has financials worse than Greece. Why would the EU take them? And even if they did, why would they do it within the next 5 years? The ECB is very risk-averse right now.
Oof. Yeah, the quotes from the EU in that article are not promising, and AWS also raises a good point re: Spain. It seems inevitable that the EU would admit an independent Scotland *eventually* (assuming the EU survives, which is very probable but not totally certain). But it seems pretty likely that they wouldn't admit Scotland very quickly (probably not within five years), and that transition period could be pretty rough for Scotland.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84642
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

AWS260 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Can the UK block independent Scotland from joining the EU?
I think the louder objections would come from Spain, which has its own regions with dreams of independence. Precedent and whatnot.
My first thought was about the Basques. I wasn't aware of the Catalonia issues.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41938
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by El Guapo »

Paul Krugman echoes what a bad idea independence would be.

Yeah, this doesn't seem like a hard call.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16957
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Zarathud »

So Scotland is the UK's Alaska? Sounds right to me.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84642
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Scottish Independence?

Post by Isgrimnur »

No, it's their Quebec.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26952
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Scottish Independence?

Post by Rip »

Isgrimnur wrote:No, it's their Canada.
Yea, that sounds more accurate.
Post Reply