Gun Politics

[YellowKing]

All I could think when this happened was "you reap what you sow."

If America insists on being saturated in gun culture, then don't be surprised when it turns into the Wild West.

[msteelers]

The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy and a robot with a claymore stuck to it.

[Carpet_pissr]

All I could think when this happened was "you reap what you sow."

If America insists on being saturated in gun culture, then don't be surprised when it turns into the Wild West.

Yes. When so many people are packing heat, cops are going to be fearful and paranoid, leading to the overzealous shootings, and this kind of reaction to overzealous shootings. We have indeed reaped what we sowed (this is just one of the many nice benefits of so many people being armed and carrying).

I hope LaPierre sleeps well at night, that lying, traitorous fucker - I fully lay most of this in his lap, starting with his hijack of the NRA back in the 70's?, which turned it into a lobbying monster, which so many cowardly legislators are now afraid of.

It sickens me.

[GreenGoo]

The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy and a robot with a claymore stuck to it.

I didn't understand this when I first read it (how was a big sword going to work? Is this a video game reference?) but then I read the thread in EBG and now I lol'd.

[Enough]

All I could think when this happened was "you reap what you sow."

If America insists on being saturated in gun culture, then don't be surprised when it turns into the Wild West.

This. So much this. WTF have we done?

[stessier]

Interesting look at gun violence by 538.

[Carpet_pissr]

Interesting look at gun violence by 538.

Excellent, thanks for posting that.

But I did a double take when I read this:

"The thing that will save that man’s life may not be the same thing that saves the life of a trans immigrant abused by her partner, may not be the same thing that saves the life of a child who arrives at school unprepared to face a man with a rifle, may not be the same thing that saves the life of a service member with depression. And something else entirely may be needed to save the lives of young black men, who are most at risk of dying from gunfire."

Literally 5 sentences prior to that statement, he wrote: "What each of these deaths has in common is the use of a gun"

Seemed to have answered his own question/comment to me. Yes, of course a suicidal person will find other means if they don't have a gun, but does anyone doubt that if the population weren't lousy with guns, the rate would be much lower? I would also argue that most anti-gun advocates do not consider suicide gun deaths to be the primary problem, even though statistically they make up the bulk of the victims.

Too bad the NRA lobbied (and won) to get research on this topic defunded for the CDC, or we would have much better data.

[Isgrimnur]

2012 stats

*Of the poisoning deaths, 81% were ingestion of drugs and 15% were gas inhalation.

[Rip]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

Suicide is easy.

[Isgrimnur]

It is painless, too?

[Enough]

I'm just surprised gas was used at all successfully after what we have learned recently.

[Jeff V]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

Suicide is easy.

I bet it would. Blowing ones head off is an easy, impulsive thing to do. Many other methods require planning, pain or both. Even added seconds to consider what it is that you are about to do might make all the difference.

[Rip]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

Suicide is easy.

I bet it would. Blowing ones head off is an easy, impulsive thing to do. Many other methods require planning, pain or both. Even added seconds to consider what it is that you are about to do might make all the difference.

How much planning does it take to jump out a window or step in front of a bus/train?

No instant method of death involves pain. The selection of painless methods that require little planning is immense.

[Enough]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

Suicide is easy.

I bet it would. Blowing ones head off is an easy, impulsive thing to do. Many other methods require planning, pain or both. Even added seconds to consider what it is that you are about to do might make all the difference.

How much planning does it take to jump out a window or step in front of a bus/train?

No instant method of death involves pain. The selection of painless methods that require little planning is immense.

If that's the case, why do guns so dominate so strongly then? Surely not because they are easier than the other methods you are thinking of? Heavens no, of course that couldn't be it.

[Jeff V]

You have to go to railroad tracks or be at a window high enough to kill you. That's far less convenient than pulling a piece of your pants and blowing your own fool head off. The always-available presence of the gun makes suicide far more convenient which reduces second-thoughts opportunity. Very rarely does one have a suicide epiphany while standing on a train platform or at the window of a high-rise building.

[LordMortis]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

Suicide is easy.

The Israeli military would disagree with you in an exceptionally strong way and I'm surprised you don't remember this being brought up on OO several in the past, beginning with Sandy Hook.

http://www.stripes.com/news/experts-res ... s-1.199216

In 2006, after years of suicides among young men in the Israel Defense Forces, authorities forbade the troops from bringing their rifles home on weekends. Suicides dropped by 40 percent, according to a 2010 study by psychiatrists with the IDF and the Sheba Medical Center.

I'll take google's word over your hunch.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=isreal+suicide+gun

[Rip]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

Suicide is easy.

I bet it would. Blowing ones head off is an easy, impulsive thing to do. Many other methods require planning, pain or both. Even added seconds to consider what it is that you are about to do might make all the difference.

How much planning does it take to jump out a window or step in front of a bus/train?

No instant method of death involves pain. The selection of painless methods that require little planning is immense.

If that's the case, why do guns so dominate so strongly then? Surely not because they are easier than the other methods you are thinking of? Heavens no, of course that couldn't be it.

Because male psychology says it is an honorable and manly way to go out.

Men most often take the violent way and women opt for the OD or non-violent method.

[GreenGoo]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

Suicide is easy.

I bet it would. Blowing ones head off is an easy, impulsive thing to do. Many other methods require planning, pain or both. Even added seconds to consider what it is that you are about to do might make all the difference.

How much planning does it take to jump out a window or step in front of a bus/train?

No instant method of death involves pain. The selection of painless methods that require little planning is immense.

I think it would be fairly easy to look at other western countries with more gun control to see what the rates are like. Presumably they should be close.

I'm not gonna look. Way too lazy and disinterested in the result, but if people care enough, someone somewhere must have already compiled the data.

My gut tells me that suicide rates are going to be close enough as to be the same. But they might not be. Data anyone?

[Rip]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

As with many things it probably tells the reader whatever the reader wanted to believe in the first place.

I see some with strict gun control and lower rates but also many with it that have horrid rates. We seem to be rather middle of the packish.

[Enough]

Because male psychology says it is an honorable and manly way to go out.

Men most often take the violent way and women opt for the OD or non-violent method.

It's surely possible to have very high suicide rates without guns everywhere (hello South Korea), but that doesn't mean those same statistics wouldn't be even higher with a preponderance of guns.

Research shows that whether attempters live or die depends in large part on the ready availability of highly lethal means, especially firearms.

A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. Based on a survey of American households conducted in 2002, HSPH Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Management Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the School’s Injury Control Research Center (ICRC), found that in states where guns were prevalent—as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns—rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.

The lesson? Many lives would likely be saved if people disposed of their firearms, kept them locked away, or stored them outside the home. Says HSPH Professor of Health Policy David Hemenway, the ICRC’s director: “Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

But few can survive a gun blast.

[Captain Caveman]

Yep, the research is pretty clear on this. Women and men actually attempt suicide at comparable rates, but suicide deaths are a lot higher in men because they are much more likely to use a gun as the means.

This also is evidence against Rip's insistence that the tool doesn't matter because "suicide is easy". Suicidal attempts are pretty equivalent between men and women, but a lot more men actually die by suicide. Why? Because many of those women after their failed suicide attempts choose not to attempt suicide later. In many instances, suicide is impulsive, often aided by being under the influence, and you are highly likely not to get a second chance if you choose a gun as your suicide tool.

[Carpet_pissr]

I assume the numbers for homicide by gun would follow the same "impulse-driven action, easy access, deadly" logic as it does for suicide.

[tjg_marantz]

Suicide is easy.


Fuck you, you ignorant fuckstick.

[GreenGoo]

Suicide is easy.


Fuck you, you ignorant fuckstick.

Take a breath. He just meant the mechanics.

[Captain Caveman]

Suicide is easy.


Fuck you, you ignorant fuckstick.

Take a breath. He just meant the mechanics.

Probably because they're around so much carbon dioxide.

[GreenGoo]

Short people Mechanics, got no reason...

[Enough]

I just noticed that 538 has a great infographic/story up today on gun violence.

[Fitzy]

Yep, the research is pretty clear on this. Women and men actually attempt suicide at comparable rates, but suicide deaths are a lot higher in men because they are much more likely to use a gun as the means.

This also is evidence against Rip's insistence that the tool doesn't matter because "suicide is easy". Suicidal attempts are pretty equivalent between men and women, but a lot more men actually die by suicide. Why? Because many of those women after their failed suicide attempts choose not to attempt suicide later. In many instances, suicide is impulsive, often aided by being under the influence, and you are highly likely not to get a second chance if you choose a gun as your suicide tool.

Actually, women are quite a bit more likely to attempt. 3x more likely. But far less likely to die. http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

I'll let someone else argue what that means for Rip's point.

[stessier]

I just noticed that 538 has a great infographic/story up today on gun violence.

You're 6 hours late.

[Smoove_B]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

NJ currently has the second highest rate of suicide in the nation and our gun laws were ranked #3 a few years ago in terms of Top 10 most difficult states to obtain a gun in.

Doesn't change the fact that for the second time in six weeks, another person killed themselves at a shooting range here in northern NJ.

The website says that males who are accompanied by a companion need only bring a valid ID (a driver’s license of a passport) to rent a gun and shoot. Male shooters who come alone must present a state-issued firearms ID card.

For reasons the website does not explain, the rules are different for females. Women who come alone or with a friend don’t need a firearms ID card, and need only present a driver’s license or passport.

[em2nought]

Do I think lack of access to guns would cut suicide rates?

No, not at all.

Suicide is easy.

I bet it would. Blowing ones head off is an easy, impulsive thing to do. Many other methods require planning, pain or both. Even added seconds to consider what it is that you are about to do might make all the difference.

How much planning does it take to jump out a window or step in front of a bus/train?

No instant method of death involves pain. The selection of painless methods that require little planning is immense.

If that's the case, why do guns so dominate so strongly then? Surely not because they are easier than the other methods you are thinking of? Heavens no, of course that couldn't be it.

Loonie Lefties trying to sabotage the 2nd with their last act, or just pissed off jerks trying to leave as big a mess as possible for others to deal with? I bet there are some of both those in the numbers.

[Moliere]

Why Do Dumb Celebrities Keep Blaming The NRA For Everything?

The NRA has nothing to do with mass shootings. Everyone knows this. Even Wheaton himself probably knows it, somewhere down in the quacking recesses of his subconscious. The mass shooting phenomenon in this country is serious, but the pathological mainspring of each shooting tends to be radically different: the failure of our mental health system for one, the failure of our government intelligence apparatus for another, an irresponsible parent here, an incompetent military assessment process there. Each of these requires a different kind of fix, meaning the problem is unsuitable for pithy sound bites and 140-character pronouncements.

[hepcat]

When they lobby to keep the government from trying to make it harder for terrorists to buy guns, I also say "F the NRA".

[Carpet_pissr]

Could easily write an article: "Why do Dumb Pro-Gun Activists Keep Blaming Mental Illness for the Gun Problem?"

Author needs to do some more research: "mass shootings represent a small percentage of all gun violence, and mental illness is not a factor in most violent acts. According to one epidemiological estimate, entirely eliminating the effects of mental illness would reduce all violence by only 4 percent. Over all, less than 5 percent of gun homicides between 2001 and 2010 were committed by people with diagnoses of mental illness, according to a public health study published this year.

Also, NRA was responsible, via lobbying for "the failure of our government intelligence apparatus" wrt intelligence and data gathering regarding gun statistics and related deaths.

"Dr. Fred Rivara, a professor of Pediatrics and Epidemiology at the University of Washington at Seattle Children's Hospital, has been involved with injury research for 30 years. He was part of a team that researched gun violence back in the 1990s and personally saw the chilling effects of the NRA’s lobbying arm. Rivara says that the NRA accused the CDC of trying to use science to promote gun control.

“As a result of that, many, many people stopped doing gun research, [and] the number of publications on firearm violence decreased dramatically," he told The Takeaway in April. "It was really chilling in terms of our ability to conduct research on this very important problem.”

[Isgrimnur]

If only the author had interviewed Wheaton about his stance and reasoning for his hatred of the NRA, perhaps I'd be more than willing to listen to his meta-commentary on the subject.

Opinion piece is opinionated.

[YellowKing]

Sorry, but when your counter-argument is to repeatedly call people "stupid" and "dumb," I'm not buying what you're selling.

[GreenGoo]

Just how much quacking does Will do, anyway? Is he a secret duck fetishist?

Funny typo/misspelling is funny.

[Isgrimnur]

Sorry, but when your counter-argument is to repeatedly call people "stupid" and "dumb," I'm not buying what you're selling.

I'm not saying that Wil is some deep policy wonk whose opinion on the NRA is based on facts or a reasoned political background. But the article about his tweets is click bait editorializing fluff that adds nothing to the discussion either.

[Pyperkub]

If only the author had interviewed Wheaton about his stance and reasoning for his hatred of the NRA, perhaps I'd be more than willing to listen to his meta-commentary on the subject.

Opinion piece is opinionated.

Bingo.

[em2nought]

Ban trucks!