Shutdown

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:27 am

All I'm saying is that the optics aren't pretty on this one, and the GOP knows it. Is this really the hill the Democrats want to die on? I know it sucks, but the Dems are over a barrel here. There's no way to spin "I'd rather taxpaying Americans be out of work than table a discussion on illegal immigration for a later date." Especially when immigration shouldn't have even been a piece of this discussion in the first place.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:51 am

Just read the latest updates, and it sounds like the Dems are asking for what I was saying - promise to vote on DACA by Feb. 8th, commitment that President won't be involved (I'd drop this if I were them), and commitment that House will take up whatever Senate passes.

So at this point I'm back in the "fuck McConnell if he won't budge" camp. Other than the President not being involved thing which is sort of weird, the other two points seem reasonable. (Yes, I understand completely WHY they don't want the President involved, but it seems like a big ask).

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:02 am

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:11 am

Just checking in this morning from my federal government job, since I'm not furloughed.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:19 am

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:27 am All I'm saying is that the optics aren't pretty on this one, and the GOP knows it. Is this really the hill the Democrats want to die on? I know it sucks, but the Dems are over a barrel here. There's no way to spin "I'd rather taxpaying Americans be out of work than table a discussion on illegal immigration for a later date." Especially when immigration shouldn't have even been a piece of this discussion in the first place.

I'd agree if the election wasn't for 9 months. No one will even be talking about this then. Could you even pinpoint what asshattery was going on 9 months ago? There is too much information and short-term hits just don't matter anymore.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:27 am

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:51 am Just read the latest updates, and it sounds like the Dems are asking for what I was saying - promise to vote on DACA by Feb. 8th, commitment that President won't be involved (I'd drop this if I were them), and commitment that House will take up whatever Senate passes.

So at this point I'm back in the "fuck McConnell if he won't budge" camp. Other than the President not being involved thing which is sort of weird, the other two points seem reasonable. (Yes, I understand completely WHY they don't want the President involved, but it seems like a big ask).

I think even many of the Republicans secretly don't want the Toddler In Chief (been waiting to use this term!) involved since even he doesn't know what he seems to want from day to day...like a toddler!

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:42 am

The TIC just wants to be left alone so he can play golf and watch the gorilla channel.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:04 pm

FWIW I'm with those who are pleased to see the Dems show some spine and do the right thing, even if it costs them politically. I'm not unsympathetic to the million or so federal workers whose livelihoods are being disrupted, but I'm slightly more sympathetic to the 800,000 would-be citizens whose futures are on the line. I hope the adults in the room can bypass the TIC and reach a compromise quickly. I further hope that the TIC pays a price for his unhelpful meddling...but I know that's too much to expect.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:07 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:04 pm FWIW I'm with those who are pleased to see the Dems show some spine and do the right thing, even if it costs them politically. I'm not unsympathetic to the million or so federal workers whose livelihoods are being disrupted, but I'm slightly more sympathetic to the 800,000 would-be citizens whose futures are on the line. I hope the adults in the room can bypass the TIC and reach a compromise quickly. I further hope that the TIC pays a price for his unhelpful meddling...but I know that's too much to expect.

This.

The problem for me is that it doesn't matter what McConnell promises--even if he does so in good faith. That won't bind Ryan or Trump, both of which would likely be required for any immigration bill to actually become law.

The only hold-out option that actually guarantees anything is tying the immigration bill to the shutdown-ending vote. And that's not going to happen.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:19 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:51 am Just read the latest updates, and it sounds like the Dems are asking for what I was saying - promise to vote on DACA by Feb. 8th, commitment that President won't be involved (I'd drop this if I were them), and commitment that House will take up whatever Senate passes.

They should be asking that ONLY Trump be involved, and not his party of xenophobic outliers like Miller. Furthermore, he should be sequestered prior to any presentation so that those fuckwads can't get to him and preach their very own special brand of hate and racism, thereby convincing someone with the mental aptitude and temperament of a 9 year old to see their side.

It's easy to control a fool if you pretend to like him. That's what they need to learn, I guess.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:42 am The TIC just wants to be left alone so he can play golf and watch the gorilla channel.

I heard it's Gibbon week!

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:31 pm

hepcat wrote:It's easy to control a fool if you pretend to like him.

That's Trump's entire success summed up in one sentence.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:58 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:07 pm
Kraken wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:04 pm FWIW I'm with those who are pleased to see the Dems show some spine and do the right thing, even if it costs them politically. I'm not unsympathetic to the million or so federal workers whose livelihoods are being disrupted, but I'm slightly more sympathetic to the 800,000 would-be citizens whose futures are on the line. I hope the adults in the room can bypass the TIC and reach a compromise quickly. I further hope that the TIC pays a price for his unhelpful meddling...but I know that's too much to expect.
This.

The problem for me is that it doesn't matter what McConnell promises--even if he does so in good faith. That won't bind Ryan or Trump, both of which would likely be required for any immigration bill to actually become law.

The only hold-out option that actually guarantees anything is tying the immigration bill to the shutdown-ending vote. And that's not going to happen.

Yeah. Plus the politics of this, especially long-term, are unclear at best. Putting up no fight on DACA would risk alienating the highly mobilized democratic base. This fight has its risks too, but the point is that there's no course of action that is risk-free. Plus while the Republicans have set this up as well as they can - (white) children vs. (brown) immigrants, that's something that they'll always be able to do when they hold the congressional majorities. If the democrats agreed to the CHIP extension bill, then next month McConnell & Ryan would load up a widely popular troop pay bill or something alongside a no-DACA extension, then it's troops vs. immigrants.

Anyway, we'll see. What I'm not sure about is what exactly they do to end the shutdown.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:02 pm

pr0ner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:11 am Just checking in this morning from my federal government job, since I'm not furloughed.

Well, I was told not to report to work today.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:07 pm

It's easy to side with the democrats as long as it's not my paycheck being delayed and I have access to the services I need.

I want Congress and the current administration to not have us rollover to their hamfisted attempts to rule that they confuse with governance and representation. But this is of course because I'm not feeling the stress from the fight. All it takes is one missed paycheck to change my attitude at this point.

I'm angry but I'm not willing to suffer angry yet. It sure doesn't feel like I'm too far off though. I feel for those who will be suffering beginning today.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:17 pm

Yeah fortunately I'm in the private sector (where they expect results!), but I do have friends that are going to get hit hard by this if it drags out. My buddy with the Corps of Engineers has already been told to anticipate time off without pay. Moral high ground is great, but I doubt he gives two shits about DACA when it comes time to make his house payment.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:22 pm

FWIW stories are indicating that democrats (at least enough of them) may take the McConnell deal today, which sounds like the CHIP (and short-term funding) extension plus a "free and open debate" on immigration. Which not sure is worth much, but also not sure that the Democrats position is super great if the shutdown goes on for a long time.

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:26 pm

Listening to Schumer speaking, if I was a Republican I'd vote no.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:26 pm

Watching C-span, and it sounds like we're about to vote and they expect re-opening.

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:28 pm

Ah, Schumer was bad cop, Durbin is being good cop.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:36 pm

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Luckily for you guys a large portion of the democrat base isn't affected by a shutdown.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:28 pm

Yes the rampant voter fraud that has been uncovered is epic. Oh wait...

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:31 pm

A real gravestone...

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:35 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:28 pm Yes the rampant voter fraud that has been uncovered is epic. Oh wait...

What's even funnier is the few ones identified were generally Trump supporters.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:37 pm

...including his own chief strategist, Steve Bannon.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:38 pm

Oddly enough, I think Obama was the straw that brought about death. After he won, The "Party of Lincoln" went from already more corrupt than their counterparts, past GO, directly to Saruman. Trump is an expression of cancer, not the cancer itself. Racism and willful ignorance are the cancer.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:43 pm

In answer to what appears to be today's marching orders

https://www.snopes.com/canada-refugee-benefits/

They can't even get their countries correct. *sigh*

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:45 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:37 pm ...including his own chief strategist, Steve Bannon.

He was just some staffer. Trump barely knew who he was.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:46 pm

coopasonic wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:45 pm
hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:37 pm ...including his own chief strategist, Steve Bannon.
He was just some staffer. Trump barely knew who he was.

He wasn't even really associated with administration or campaign. Trumps not even sure what he looks like.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:48 pm

I heard Trump never even met the guy. He just showed up one day, told the press he was in the Trump administration, then ate all the cheese blintzes, put on an Acme brand rocket pack and flew away.

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:59 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:43 pm In answer to what appears to be today's marching orders

https://www.snopes.com/canada-refugee-benefits/

They can't even get their countries correct. *sigh*

I see that shit posted weekly on my facebook feed by random people it's insane what people will believe.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:04 pm

At least your Canadian, so there is corn kernel truth in the bullshit sandwich you're being fed.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:07 pm

A lot of racist folks want desperately to believe their hate is justified.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:34 pm

Octavious wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:28 pm Yes the rampant voter fraud that has been uncovered is epic. Oh wait...

Well sure as everybody knows

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:36 pm

If you can't spell "motto", you really are just proving everyone's point about Trump supporters.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:42 pm

Deal Done. For now:

The Senate voted 81-18 to move forward on a bill to fund the government through Feb. 8 after Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) agreed to end the shutdown and continue to negotiate on immigration and spending matters. If a broader deal is not reached by Feb. 8, the Senate would take up legislation to protect hundreds of thousands of young undocumented immigrants who are losing legal protections, as long as the government remains open.

I agree with YK in that this isn't the hill to die on with this exception: The GOP has been trying to do everything with zero input from Democrats and Democratic states. Everything is expected to be passed via reconciliation only, or shelved. This is no way to govern (and it wasn't how Obama governed - there was plenty of GOP input accepted to bills passed, despite the GOP not actually voting for the legislation). In many ways, I think Trump is right that we may need to bring some form of earmarks back - the lack of that grease is a part of why the wheels aren't moving (though in giving Trump credit, it's also something I've been saying for years).

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:45 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:42 pm Deal Done.

That should be their new moto.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:45 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:36 pm If you can't spell "motto", you really are just proving everyone's point about Trump supporters.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:46 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:45 pm
Pyperkub wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:42 pm Deal Done.
That should be their new moto.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:47 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:45 pm
Pyperkub wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:42 pm Deal Done.
That should be their new moto.

Hello moto!