The New Bubble

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LordMortis
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LordMortis »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:08 am Here's an idea: Don't go to some place that costs $100,000 to get a degree.
I was prepared to add my pitchfork to agree with you but as it turns out, even the cheap route to a four year decree would be difficult in today's college environment (For in state tuition in Michigan). Though I believe there are a host of tax credits and FAFSA options available that were not available to me and I don't know how they would reduce this burden:

First recent thing could I find

https://studentloanhero.com/featured/co ... our-study/
Here are the average costs of a college credit for public colleges:

Four-year, public: $324.70
Two-year, public: $135.09
Less than two years, public: $281.17
Currently, the Department of Education has interest on federal Direct Loans at 3.76% APR. That is an effective rate of about 20 percent over 10 years.
https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/c ... /?state=MI

It looks like a four year degree with no living expenses transferring tow years of credits from the most well regarded CC is about $40,000 for a four year decree from my Alma-matter. That's crazy expensive (worse than my expectations before fact checking), IMO, but it's doable if you have support system. If you don't then I guess you bite the bullet and hold off another 10 years before you get first new car.

We seem to have an insane need to make college campuses into these administrative paradise communities nowadays and I guess those costs are coming to call.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog »

LordMortis wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:51 am
Currently, the Department of Education has interest on federal Direct Loans at 3.76% APR. That is an effective rate of about 20 percent over 10 years.
ummm...... that's how finance works. You borrow someone's money and they get interest until you pay it back.

https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/c ... /?state=MI

It looks like a four year degree with no living expenses transferring tow years of credits from the most well regarded CC is about $40,000 for a four year decree from my Alma-matter. That's crazy expensive (worse than my expectations before fact checking), IMO, but it's doable if you have support system. If you don't then I guess you bite the bullet and hold off another 10 years before you get first new car.

We seem to have an insane need to make college campuses into these administrative paradise communities nowadays and I guess those costs are coming to call.

From the article, I sympathize with Rick, Deshoun, and Jeanette. I'm appalled that Katelyn runs up $140,000 in debt and feels persecuted.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Smoove_B »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:37 amThe curriculum for all accredited Texas public universities is exactly the same whether you go to community college or the University of Texas.
Curriculum isn't the same as quality of instruction or the opportunities available while attending. I'm not saying don't go to a community college, but understand that a bigger school is likely going to have something else for the money spent. Whether or not a student takes advantage of what's offered is another story. Focusing only on price can be misleading (on both sides). Understand what you're getting; don't just go (or not) to a school because of the name or the price.
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Re: The New Bubble

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Smoove_B wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:13 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:37 amThe curriculum for all accredited Texas public universities is exactly the same whether you go to community college or the University of Texas.
Curriculum isn't the same as quality of instruction or the opportunities available while attending. I'm not saying don't go to a community college, but understand that a bigger school is likely going to have something else for the money spent. Whether or not a student takes advantage of what's offered is another story.
Perhaps. But I'm not aware of any research that shows any discrepancy of education in degrees from credited institutions. Obviously there's going to be a social networking aspect of being and alumni of USC or Michigan or Texas. But I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who wants that networking and gets saddled with debt either.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: The New Bubble

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For some higher and fields, the name on the diploma absolutely matters.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by NickAragua »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:37 am
NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:14 am I heard "Joe Bob's Book Learnin' and Chainsaw Repair" is a pretty well-known and respected institution for higher learning and only charges $10k/year.
Keep perpetuating that myth.

The curriculum for all accredited Texas public universities is exactly the same whether you go to community college or the University of Texas.
You should try telling that to perspective employers, I'm sure they'll be thrilled to hear about your internship at the local gas & go and the time you went cow tipping.

I'm not really arguing in favor of spending 120k to get a graduate degree in 14th century British literature. But going to Bridgewater State isn't the same as going to UMass Amherst, while Joe Bob just doesn't have the prestige and opportunities available to people who go Texas A&M.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Smoove_B »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:16 pmPerhaps. But I'm not aware of any research that shows any discrepancy of education in degrees from credited institutions. Obviously there's going to be a social networking aspect of being and alumni of USC or Michigan or Texas. But I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who wants that networking and gets saddled with debt either.
As someone that teaches in a nationally accredited program (ranked ~top 5 in the United States, I think) I can only say that the variety and quality of teaching is wildly variable, even among people that teach the same course. The difference (I think) is that there's a potential to have a greater mix of styles, techniques, viewpoints, etc... than a smaller school.

Regarding the extras, I'm not even talking about the water cooler bragging or perceived name recognition on a resume. I'm instead referring to the useful opportunities that exist outside the classroom. Namely the opportunities for work/study, research and valuable internships. For some majors this will be more important than for others, but to that same point if your career path isn't one that favors having some work experience prior to graduation or a research background, why are you going to a $25K+ a year school?

The problem (as near as I can tell) is that so many teenagers are told they must earn a college degree at (literally) all costs. And there's some perception that like a car or a handbag, the more you pay for it, the better it must be. Why wouldn't I go to the most expensive school I can get into? The degree from them must be worth so much more!

I've said it elsewhere, there's also a huge disconnect (in my experience) between what students think they're going to earn post-graduation vs what they really earn. And when you mix that with $60K+ in debt, you have a generation of individuals that have no good options.
Last edited by Smoove_B on Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LordMortis »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:00 pm ummm...... that's how finance works. You borrow someone's money and they get interest until you pay it back.
I'm just trying to be honest with my findings. College debt accumlators act like getting a degree is conspiracy of usury. And I see 3.79% as crazy good. My interesting rate for for my college debt was 8.8% but then I had very little debt, working my way through, and my college costs were a much smaller part of my income that would $6,000 to $13,000 a year be today (and again, I have no concept of how FAFSA and income tax write offs work anymore)
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Re: The New Bubble

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I just went and checked my college (UMass Amherst). It's a pretty decent state school. Nothing amazing, but fine.

In-state, undergrad, yearly:
Tuition and fees: $14,596
Room*: $6,061
Meal Plan**: $5,320
Books: $1,000
Total: $26,977

So that's about $100k to get an undergrad degree from an okay state school, living in-state. When I went there from 1999-2003, I think the total cost was close to half that, and I didn't manage to get any major financial aid besides unsubsidized loans, even though I had a fairly high need. That's actually pretty amazing that even going in-state, the "affordable" option, is still that high.

*which you probably need, because freshmen and sophomores are required to live on-campus, off-campus rates aren't too different
**Required if you live on campus, so at least the first two years.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Fitzy »

The education at small state schools can and often does match or even surpass the prestigious schools. Until there is a huge shift in society, the small state schools will never be able to open doors the way the Ivy League and other big name schools can.

This is anecdotal, but my wife got her bachelor's and master's degrees from a state university in one of the low population, high land states. She recently started a doctoral program at Penn. Most of the students in her cohort are from the Ivy League or similar schools. She was afraid that her "hick" education would be dismissed and put her far behind the other students. It hasn't. The combination of her education and experience is proving well beyond what any of the other students can manage.

Now, part of that is my wife. I'm bragging, but she is brilliant and a rare person. Way beyond me. Most of her success is her and had she gone to a prestigious university to begin with, she'd be just as good, but I suspect no better. She would have other opportunities opened by her degree, but probably not had the real world, gritty experiences that helped shape her career.

State schools are fine for the vast majority of people and they will provide the necessary foundation for any level of success that a person wants, ultimately it is up to the person to find that success.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog »

Chaz wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:38 pm I just went and checked my college (UMass Amherst). It's a pretty decent state school. Nothing amazing, but fine.

In-state, undergrad, yearly:
Tuition and fees: $14,596
Room*: $6,061
Meal Plan**: $5,320
Books: $1,000
Total: $26,977

So that's about $100k to get an undergrad degree from an okay state school, living in-state. When I went there from 1999-2003, I think the total cost was close to half that, and I didn't manage to get any major financial aid besides unsubsidized loans, even though I had a fairly high need. That's actually pretty amazing that even going in-state, the "affordable" option, is still that high.

*which you probably need, because freshmen and sophomores are required to live on-campus, off-campus rates aren't too different
**Required if you live on campus, so at least the first two years.
There is likely some grant/scholarship money reducing that cost and I don't like including room and board in these calculations. Even if you didn't go to college, you'd be paying room and board. In addition, you get a $3000 tax credit for three years.

Anyway, it's not cheap, but it's it's not $140k of debt either.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by pr0ner »

Chaz wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:38 pm I just went and checked my college (UMass Amherst). It's a pretty decent state school. Nothing amazing, but fine.

In-state, undergrad, yearly:
Tuition and fees: $14,596
Room*: $6,061
Meal Plan**: $5,320
Books: $1,000
Total: $26,977

So that's about $100k to get an undergrad degree from an okay state school, living in-state. When I went there from 1999-2003, I think the total cost was close to half that, and I didn't manage to get any major financial aid besides unsubsidized loans, even though I had a fairly high need. That's actually pretty amazing that even going in-state, the "affordable" option, is still that high.

*which you probably need, because freshmen and sophomores are required to live on-campus, off-campus rates aren't too different
**Required if you live on campus, so at least the first two years.
This is how Virginia Tech is shaking out for 2018-19:

Tuition & Fees $13,620
Room & Board $8,934
Per Year Total $22,554

Plus there are extra fees for certain degree fields for incoming students: engineering ($2,000 per year), architecture and design ($1,500 per year), building construction ($1,500 per year), business ($75 per credit hour), and agriculture ($750 per year). I know certain science majors have lab fees now, too.

My first three years of tuition there were less than what it costs for one year now. Room and board was also a lot less then, and there were no major or lab fees.

Luckily, my parents (who paid for my college) did not incur any debt going to school. I did pick Tech, in large part, because it was the cheapest option of the schools I went to. But, I'm not sure going to a "cheaper" school like a community college would get me the STEM education I received at Tech.
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LordMortis
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LordMortis »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:59 pm I don't like including room and board in these calculations. Even if you didn't go to college, you'd be paying room and board.
Concurred. The appeal to include the cost of "the college experience" is difficult for me. As so few people I know were able to have that either. Being able to have "the college experience" I suppose goes back to that privilege of wealth people don't realize they have. We put such a high price on this rite of passage that there is now such a price tag to go through it, I guess and loans are much more freely available as well, I guess. I was nearly a straight A student out of a top high school in blue collar household with four siblings and I didn't quality for aid or loan in 1988. I was 24 before they acknowledged that my dad's income was not feeding the educational monster and I went from not being able to get a loan at all straight to qualifying for $5,000 a year (in 1994 money) in subsidized Stafford loans that would begin payment at 8.8% six months after I stopped going to school. I also qualified for a one time $500 Pell Grant in 1995 through FAFSA and some change Clinton made to tax credits. It took me 8 years to work my way through a 4 year degree where I amassed a total of $8000 in debt in 1990s money.

The rules change though. I have no way to empathize with what kids are going through now. I do not feel they are owed some sort of debt mostly forgiven "college experience." Maybe I'm just old and stuck on raising my cane with an angry "in my day!"
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Re: The New Bubble

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I was straight A, mostly AP classes, #6 in my class (with three legit "I got 1600 on the SAT" level geniuses taking up the top three spots). My mother was making not very much money, and while my father was court-ordered to pay at least half of my tuition, by my third semester he just stopped. We always reflected that on the FAFSA. I barely got any financial aid, and didn't get any of the scholarships I applied for. Somehow, between some Pell grants and my mother paying, I made it out with about ten thousand in debt.

Now, it's possible that I just suck at finding financial aid and scholarships, but even back then, most of my education was funded through unsubsidized loans, and very little of my cost was reduced by "here's some money." It helped that I spent three semesters living rent-free as an RA, as well as half of two summers working a campus job that included room and board.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LordMortis »

Chaz wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:39 pm Now, it's possible that I just suck at finding financial aid and scholarships, but even back then, most of my education was funded through unsubsidized loans, and very little of my cost was reduced by "here's some money." It helped that I spent three semesters living rent-free as an RA, as well as half of two summers working a campus job that included room and board.
My biggest help was living with my parents through most of undergrad. They actually suggested I live with them until I could afford to pay cash for a house. Not everyone gets that perk but then not living with your parents at age 23 is also a perk, so *shrug* I worked 40 hours a week at slightly above minimum wage service jobs through my entire 8 years of undergrad sans the last semester when I was a student teacher. So again, it might just be that I'm old an bitter was among the masses who were denied the things people think of as normal now and at the same time, I'm very thankful for a family who was supportive in every way they could be.
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Re: The New Bubble

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noxiousdog wrote:I don't like including room and board in these calculations. Even if you didn't go to college, you'd be paying room and board.
I’m confused. Of course room and board should be included. For a variety of reasons:

1) They are debt financing it.
2) It isn’t necessary.
3) The alternative may or may not include room and board.

If my son chooses to go to school in CA, then one way or another room and board is part of the cost of his college education. If he chooses to stay here in NJ and commute to Rutgers, then the room and board part of the financial equation goes to zero for him.

While it’s true that he still has to eat, and will have some gas/transportation costs, those wouldn’t be debt financed, and those are generally already baked into the family budget.

My son is wrapping up his junior year of high school now so has been evaluating his options. As a freshman they were compelled to take a financial literacy course and this was one of the things that they dealt with (college debt).

He currently wants to go into computer science, and his plan is to go to County college for the first two years, which is tailored to transition credit-for-credit with any four-year state university (he currently wants to finish at Rutgers). County college is about the same distance as Rutgers, so he is planning to commute to Rutgers.

And he’s very close to qualifying for a program that NJ has called NJ Stars which will pay for the first two years at County, and then gives you $10k for the final two years.

As a result, he will have the opportunity to graduate from Rutgers with a BS in CompSci and do it debt free. The entire four years will cost me about $25k, which is perfectly within reason.

If he chose to go to Rutgers and live there for four years, we would be looking at $100k+ and that would be on him.

My point is simply that you include room and board when it’s part of the equation, and you don’t include it when it’s not.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Chaz »

I guess the thinking is "well, you'd be living somewhere and eating whether you were at college or not." Which is true, but if I'm at college, I'm probably not working a full time job to cover those expenses. I worked part time through my four years, but it was never enough hours or hourly rate to be much more than spending money. I went to some variety of full time in the summer, but again, not a high enough salary to do much. There's basically no way I could've worked my way through college, even fifteen years ago. Way less so now.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog »

RM9, I understand what you're saying and of course it's part of the conversation when dealing with college costs.

However, in the context of complaining about college debt, I don't like to include it because regardless of going to school, it's still an expense. We don't talk about transportation or clothing expenses, but those are legitimate expenses as well.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by em2nought »

Gee, if there was only some way to pay for college https://www.military.com/education/money-school

After watching the entitled people looking to buy houses on HGTV, I can just imagine the typical college student those same people produce from their loins when out renting an apartment. These counters aren't granite, I can't cook in this kitchen. This granite is dark, I'll have to have light granite. These cabinets are so old they're made of real wood, I have to have white MDF cabinets at the very least. These floors aren't heated? This place has too many walls, I really have to have open concept. ...and on and on.

I went to university in the '80s. My friend and I bought a 1955 mobile home and lived in that for $130 per month rent split two ways. We ate tuna, bologna, rice, sometimes turkey drum sticks at $0.25 a pound. lol People today think they "deserve" to live better than the kings of old. :horse: I'm not bailing somebody out because they "deserve" to live at a certain level that I've never even lived at. :roll:
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:34 pmHowever, in the context of complaining about college debt, I don't like to include it because regardless of going to school, it's still an expense. We don't talk about transportation or clothing expenses, but those are legitimate expenses as well.
That didn't remove my confusion. :)

Clothing expenses aren't a college expense. "Room and Board" may or may not be a college expense. While it's true that you have to live somewhere and eat food regardless of whether you are in college or not - the scale and scope can be wildly different. And if you are financing it with student loans (rather than other ways of dealing with it), then I feel like it has to be part of the complaining about college debt.

Where I will agree with you 100% is that the complaint rings hollow to me. If my son chose to go to college on the west coast, that was a choice. A choice that massively inflates the cost of your education. You can make the choice, but you don't get to make such a ridiculously expensive choice, and then get to bitch that it was expensive. You chose to make it expensive.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by hentzau »

I'm doing my damndest to get my kids through school with a minimum of debt.

My eldest just graduated from a small, private liberal arts school with ~$20K in debt. I made her take out a small loan every year so she had some skin in the game. She was a good student, so she got some decent financial aid from the school. I was covering about $12K/year in schooling for her. Painful, but workable.

My middle child...going to the same school, not as good of a student, taking out the same $5K a year loan, is going to be costing me closer to $18K a year. She's going to be working jobs during the summer to help defray the cost, and my wife is actively searching for some part-time work to help bring some more money in. It was going to be closer to $21K more, but my wife called up the finance office for the college, complained a little bit, and they were able to knock another $3K off her tuition. So, yay for small schools!
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Jeff V »

We've been looking at some colleges in our area...nothing with a real big name attached, but the $$$ is still quite high - North Central in Naperville clocks in at $35K per year, Aurora at $27K. Probably she's going to go to Rasmussen ($19K) even though their nursing school is less convenient.

She is going to be going to become a RN/BSN. She is currently a LPN. To become an RN, she needs to pass the same exam that someone paying an even bigger boatload of cash to attend, say, University of Chicago does. As long as she passes that exam, her earning potential will be just as competitive as long as she remains in general nursing.

While this is especially true in nursing, others aren't so far removed, especially if you need to pass a license exam to practice your trade (like, say, a civic engineer). While the quality of education between an expensive school and a state college might be dramatic, it is more an individual thing when it comes to earning potential. Companies tend to offer rookie contracts in the same range to all of their young'uns. To be sure, there are still some "old boy" networks where grown adults are still unnaturally attached to their colleges, and others that think top schools are indicative of top talent (myth was debunked over and over). I highly driven student may be able to springboard to great things faster from a head start a top school might provide, but suspect for the vast majority, the debt would have a greater impact on their lives.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Isgrimnur »

Nursing is one of the special cases, what with all of the certifications. My aunt was a cardiac surgical nurse. Lord only knows how many certifications she had to have and maintain.

At a certain point, experience trumps education. Upper mobility in some fields may put a graduate degree checkpoint in front of you, but it's not going to be required to maintain a career in a field, merely to serve as gatekeeper to being an executive-level administrator in some cases.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 »

I’ve been part of the hiring and interview process for engineers for more than 20 years. The school that a candidate has never mattered and never even come up beyond the verification that they did indeed graduate there.

There are times where it can sort of help, i.e. tech companies near my alma mater were pretty heavy on employees from that school, and many of us knew each other in college - but it’s never mattered anywhere else. And that was just geographic convenience for them.

The feds are a little different but there it matters that the school is accredited. Beyond that it’s not that important.

This of course may not be true of all industries or even all locales within an industry.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Remus West »

All of you are looking at this issue thorugh the lens of people with experience/guidance. I see kids daily that have been told over and over how they need to go to college but never informed on how to pay for it or how to budget their lives. Some come from homes where mom and dad just do not know those skills themselves some from raising themselves without parents but all have had the concept of college = sucess pounded into their head at every turn. The media does it to them and the schools do it to them because we are now required by law to push them along a college bound track rather than incourage their own interests. So they see a way to "pay" for college - and yes, a lot of them are eligible for extra help due to economic need but that doesn't cover all of it. They take out their loans. Pay the tutition and take their classes. Then they get out and find the best job they can. Trouble is the best job they can doesn't pay enough to make payments, rent, food, transportation. So they defer the loans. And the interest adds up. So they frugal kid that only borrowed 40K to get through school owes over 100K by the time they can afford the 40K payments. And now they still can not afford the payments on 100K. We are not talking about people who went out and thought they had a free ride (yes, there are those) but people who thought they were responsibly doing what they needed to be sucessful because thats what our system tells them. They are then being crippled by loans they can not possibly repay.

The system of loans itself needs reform to prevent more poeple from getting caught in this cycle but the ones already caught in it need some help. People walked away from bad mortgages during the housing crunch and we all heard how that was the "right" financial decision even if it was the wrong moral one. Nobody can walk away from student loan debt. You can not even declare bankruptcy to get away from it. Why is student loan debt the only debt you can not clear through bankruptcy? Why can they garnish your wages for it when they can not do that for any other debt? How is it different from credit card debt? Defaulting on either won't get any goods back to the lender so why do we allow defaulting on cards but not college?

For the record, I have no student loan debt. Thanks to the grace of my parents covering my undergrad I had none from there and thanks to the grace of LordMortis allowing my residency in his basement for far too long I was able to rapidly pay off my grad school debt.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LordMortis »

I see kids daily that have been told over and over how they need to go to college but never informed on how to pay for it or how to budget their lives.
What's strange is even the case in my middle school/high school and we were one of the highest ranked public schools in the state at the time. Home Ec was 1 semester requirment and you met with your councilor, maybe twice in six years of middle/high school and what we called an "area coordinator" exactly no times. I can only assume their doors were somehow open but it's ridiculous to think a 12-18 year old is going to come to you to plan a life they're not actually preparing for without prodding.
thanks to the grace of LordMortis allowing my residency in his basement for far too long I was able to rapidly pay off my grad school debt.
That was a Twoway street. You essentially paid for my ridiculously expensive bar tab for years. :oops: :wub: It just turns out I'm much much better at being a hermit than being a housemate.... Which also cured me of my ridiculously expensive bar tab
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog »

Remus, as I understand it, the bankruptcy laws for loans are poorly written. This absolutely needs addressed. However, be aware that if you change those laws, we'll no longer be talking about 4% loans.

However, I call bullshit on the naive 18 year old issue. These are adults of above average intelligence. If they can't be responsible for understanding simple interest, they shouldn't be going to college anyway.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Smoove_B »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:42 amHowever, I call bullshit on the naive 18 year old issue. These are adults of above average intelligence. If they can't be responsible for understanding simple interest, they shouldn't be going to college anyway.
They can absolutely understand the math behind simple interest. What they can't comprehend is the idea of paying for college until they're in their early 40s because of a decision they're about to make while they're 17 or 18 and how that one decision is going to impact every element of their life - marriage, owning a home, owning a car, having children, etc...

The answer isn't to educate them more about a process they can't understand. The answer is to give them more options to address it.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LordMortis »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:42 am However, I call bullshit on the naive 18 year old issue. These are adults of above average intelligence. If they can't be responsible for understanding simple interest, they shouldn't be going to college anyway.
I would have been caught by the lure at 17 if those loans were available to me even if my parents would have frowned at me for doing so. The lure of "the college experience" is stronger than the lure of a higher education at 17, especially when you have been sold six hours a day five days a week for thirteen years that your life has been leading toward being prepared for college. Not for life, college. Beginning with sixth grade, our entire Raison D'être was to prepare for college. Learn how to study for college. Learn how to do homework for college. Learn how to take notes for college. Learn how to research for college. College placement classes. Extra curriculars for college. Grades for College. Community involvement for college. College college college. That friggen brainwashing.

Alas, in 1988 Loans weren't 4% and they weren't widely available. Oddly enough, my saving grace.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:56 am
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:42 amHowever, I call bullshit on the naive 18 year old issue. These are adults of above average intelligence. If they can't be responsible for understanding simple interest, they shouldn't be going to college anyway.
They can absolutely understand the math behind simple interest. What they can't comprehend is the idea of paying for college until they're in their early 40s because of a decision they're about to make while they're 17 or 18 and how that one decision is going to impact every element of their life - marriage, owning a home, owning a car, having children, etc...

The answer isn't to educate them more about a process they can't understand. The answer is to give them more options to address it.
Yeah... no sympathy from me.

In fact, it makes me angry. This is about the most blatant "privilege" example I can think of. Waaah, I qualified for $150,000 in loans at a prestigious and they want me to pay it back.

There's a reason I commuted to UH instead of going to Embry Riddle. I didn't realize I'm super special for thinking a house sized loan is a bad idea.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by stessier »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:04 am In fact, it makes me angry. This is about the most blatant "privilege" example I can think of. Waaah, I qualified for $150,000 in loans at a prestigious and they want me to pay it back.
Is there anyone who doesn't qualify for those loans?

We don't trust 18 year olds to drink responsibly, but we're fine with them taking out house sized loans. Makes sense.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Smoove_B »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:04 amYeah... no sympathy from me.
That's because you're an old salty man. :wink:

I interact with a few hundred 17-20 year olds every year; many of them (most?) are idiots. They're book smart, but they have no perspective. I don't blame them for it - they've barely been alive for 2 decades and most of that time was spent being cared for. I don't know what the magic number is, but beyond a certain range, $50K is the same as $70K is the same is $100K - it doesn't matter anymore because there aren't immediate consequences to their station. When you factor in the comments I made earlier and Remus reinforced, so many of them are being conditioned at an early age that a college degree must be obtained at all costs. I'm telling you as someone that is a fringe actor in the system, it's broken. I frequently interact with individuals that should not be in a higher education setting, and yet they are. I have absolutely no doubt it's all going to come crashing down sooner than later; it's unsustainable. I don't want to use the word predatory to describe what's happening, but they're definitely being taken advantage of at the expense of their future.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog »

stessier wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:13 am
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:04 am In fact, it makes me angry. This is about the most blatant "privilege" example I can think of. Waaah, I qualified for $150,000 in loans at a prestigious and they want me to pay it back.
Is there anyone who doesn't qualify for those loans?

We don't trust 18 year olds to drink responsibly, but we're fine with them taking out house sized loans. Makes sense.
I'm fine with preventing them from taking out house sized loans ;)
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by ImLawBoy »

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:40 pm I’ve been part of the hiring and interview process for engineers for more than 20 years. The school that a candidate has never mattered and never even come up beyond the verification that they did indeed graduate there.

There are times where it can sort of help, i.e. tech companies near my alma mater were pretty heavy on employees from that school, and many of us knew each other in college - but it’s never mattered anywhere else. And that was just geographic convenience for them.

The feds are a little different but there it matters that the school is accredited. Beyond that it’s not that important.

This of course may not be true of all industries or even all locales within an industry.
It may be an outlier, but school definitely matters in the legal industry. Your undergrad can have an impact on where you get accepted to law school, and your law school has a huge impact on where you get your first (and often subsequent) jobs. Of course, even the lower tier law schools are insanely expensive, so if you want to go into law these days, you might as well shoot for the best school you can get into. (Or do like I did and go to your in-state public school and teach Speech Comm 101 with a tuition waiver. Still had some debt coming out of law school (and undergrad), but it was manageable.)
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Remus West »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:42 amThese are adults of above average intelligence.
What makes you think such a silly thought? We are pushing college for everyone not just those of average intelligence. Which specifically means that those of below average intelligence are looking for ways to pay for college and getting taken advantage of. Even if we limited it to above average there are still people who make mistakes and being laden with debt that you literally have no way to pay off during the span of your life due to a single bad decision shouldn't be a possibility let alone a reality for such a large portion of the population.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Remus West »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:25 am
stessier wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:13 am
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:04 am In fact, it makes me angry. This is about the most blatant "privilege" example I can think of. Waaah, I qualified for $150,000 in loans at a prestigious and they want me to pay it back.
Is there anyone who doesn't qualify for those loans?

We don't trust 18 year olds to drink responsibly, but we're fine with them taking out house sized loans. Makes sense.
I'm fine with preventing them from taking out house sized loans ;)
As am I but that doesn't address the problem for those we already allowed to make that mistake.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Remus West »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:14 amI don't want to use the word predatory to describe what's happening, but they're definitely being taken advantage of at the expense of their future.
I'm happy to use it for you. The loan practices and collection tatics are absolutely predatory.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog »

Remus West wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:09 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:42 amThese are adults of above average intelligence.
What makes you think such a silly thought? We are pushing college for everyone not just those of average intelligence. Which specifically means that those of below average intelligence are looking for ways to pay for college and getting taken advantage of. Even if we limited it to above average there are still people who make mistakes and being laden with debt that you literally have no way to pay off during the span of your life due to a single bad decision shouldn't be a possibility let alone a reality for such a large portion of the population.
So dramatic.

The average loan we are talking about is 34k, which is a nice car loan. Even at the extreme, we're talking 100k, which is a small house payment with none of the maintenance or taxes associated.

Roughly 2/3rds of folks that graduate high school attend college of any kind, with roughly 1/3 of those going to 2 year schools.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Isgrimnur »

Debt financing of post-HS schooling represents a mortgage against future earnings. And much like homes (sorry, LM), the future value of those earnings is not guaranteed.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog »

Remus West wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:11 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:14 amI don't want to use the word predatory to describe what's happening, but they're definitely being taken advantage of at the expense of their future.
I'm happy to use it for you. The loan practices and collection tatics are absolutely predatory.
The universities are waaaayyy more predatory than the loans.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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