[North Korea] The Dear Loser comes into his own.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:35 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:13 pm
NickAragua wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:05 pm Christ, the news guys couldn't slobber Trump's knob any harder, could they?
Well, you have to remember that Fox News is state run. Plus, Hannity and Trump are currently in a relationship. Hannity even updated his Facebook status to “its complicated...but lucrative.”

Yeah, I was talking about ABC.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 pm

Hmmm...doesn’t seem too out of bounds to me. I mean, it’s not every day a dictator gets validation.

Stefan Stirzaker · Post by **Stefan Stirzaker** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:01 am

I look forward to seeing the content of that "historic" signing. Trump chains in peyongyang or no nukes and stay out of commenting on our torture tactics?

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:10 am

There wasn't enough time before the meeting to draft anything of substance, so I look forward to something vague and hopeful and meaningless that will make both sides feel good. Then such diplomats as we have left can get to work. That would be a very good outcome.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:13 am

Yawn.

What's the spin gonna be on this tomorrow? Saviour of the human race or saviour of the human race plus deal making domination of the highest order? Just how important was this meeting? The most important ever or the mostest important ever?

I can tell you one thing, something concrete happened. That's for sure.

Stefan Stirzaker · Post by **Stefan Stirzaker** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:42 am

Spoiler:

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:50 am

Sounds like Drumpf hit the ol' reset button on the US's relationship with North Korea. Seems legit.

Stefan Stirzaker · Post by **Stefan Stirzaker** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:15 am

Dont forget that those in Gulags are the great winners today!

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:58 am

So we're getting ambassadors (which we've already had by back channel anyway) in exchange for re-agreeing to what we already agreed to several presidents ago, except this time Kim got the massive propaganda coup of equality on the world stage his family has wanted for decades.

Nothing even pretending to be substantial on arms.

We've implied a U.S. drawdown on forces is coming. You can bet our regional allies noted that.

Oh, and Trump explicitly, intentionally refused to mention human rights.

This what getting played by NK looks like.

Trump Tower Pyongyang better be pretty damn impressive.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:38 am

Just to give an idea of how great this went, a "goodie bag" given to journalists covering the Singapore summit included a USB-powered fan that security experts are warning them not to plug in.

At present it's unclear who even supplied the materials.

Stefan Stirzaker · Post by **Stefan Stirzaker** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:49 am

And Exercises in the area on hold indefinitely because trump says they're a "provocation". SK and Japan apparently surprised and not informed.

But...those beaches. Best condos in the world apparently!

MAGA

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am

Interesting how demanding Democrats can be of things they feel must agree to none of which Iran agreed to.

If he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to.......

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:58 am

Oh, and there's this:

Amazing words from S. Korea Military about Jt. Exercises cancelled..”Regarding President Trump's comment regarding ending of the combined military drills..we need to find out the exact meaning or intention behind his comments at this point," a SK military official told NBC News.

Trump promised Kim to cancel US-SK military exercises (a long-standing NK demand) without even consulting SK. Total blindside concession.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:21 am

Stefan Stirzaker wrote:And Exercises in the area on hold indefinitely because trump says they're a "provocation". SK and Japan apparently surprised and not informed.

But...those beaches. Best condos in the world apparently!

MAGA

Well we do need to reallocate military assets in our upcoming fight against the true enemy, Canada.

Trudeau better offer up some prime real estate for a Trump property quick...

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:28 am

Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 amIf he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to...

It should be interesting to see anything happen, honestly. North Korea is the most tightly controlled, brainwashed country in the world. I imagine it'll be hard for inspectors to really even start knowing where to look, let alone find "new" places to search that we haven't speculated about via satellite.

I don't applaud Trump or Kim for this. Yeah, we're talking - and we've done it a few times before. It always amounts to nothing because the root cause never changes. NK will find some arbitrary reason to be offended and flare up again. The only thing I take away as historic is how quickly our President sold us out for a moment in the spotlight, immediately offering to reduce our allied strength in the region for a promise of a promise from a pathological liar.

Kim and his line need to go, but I don't think anyone can even come close to speculating what that would do to the country.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:42 am

Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am Interesting how demanding Democrats can be of things they feel must agree to none of which Iran agreed to.

If he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to.......

The is one hell of an if. He gave NK basically everything they wanted in exchange for a promise to work toward denucleariazrion with no timeline for that work and no real means of monitoring progress.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:44 am

I’m guessing Otto Warmbier didn’t come up during the meeting.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:51 am

Paingod wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:28 am
Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 amIf he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to...
It should be interesting to see anything happen, honestly. North Korea is the most tightly controlled, brainwashed country in the world. I imagine it'll be hard for inspectors to really even start knowing where to look, let alone find "new" places to search that we haven't speculated about via satellite.

I don't applaud Trump or Kim for this. Yeah, we're talking - and we've done it a few times before. It always amounts to nothing because the root cause never changes. NK will find some arbitrary reason to be offended and flare up again. The only thing I take away as historic is how quickly our President sold us out for a moment in the spotlight, immediately offering to reduce our allied strength in the region for a promise of a promise from a pathological liar.

Kim and his line need to go, but I don't think anyone can even come close to speculating what that would do to the country.

I am skeptical of it actually happening as well. That said I was skeptical of getting hostages released and he did that in no time flat. I ponder if some in the political arena are more worried about it happening without them getting any credit than anything. Stranger things have happened, I was every bit as skeptical that Reagan would get the Berlin wall torn down.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:54 am

If anything happens, you've got to give credit to everyone that's been trying for 70 years. The last guy to try the lid on the pickle jar might get it, but a dozen people before him helped loosen it...

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am

Remus West wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:42 am
Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am Interesting how demanding Democrats can be of things they feel must agree to none of which Iran agreed to.

If he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to.......
The is one hell of an if. He gave NK basically everything they wanted in exchange for a promise to work toward denucleariazrion with no timeline for that work and no real means of monitoring progress.

Which is pretty much what the deal with Iran was, so...........

Not sure how you seem to be convinced you know everything that was agreed to or is being proposed.......

I can acknowledge I have no idea and so will just wait patiently while they negotiate to see if anything concrete comes out of it.

raydude · Post by **raydude** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:14 am

Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am
Remus West wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:42 am
Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am Interesting how demanding Democrats can be of things they feel must agree to none of which Iran agreed to.

If he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to.......
The is one hell of an if. He gave NK basically everything they wanted in exchange for a promise to work toward denucleariazrion with no timeline for that work and no real means of monitoring progress.
Which is pretty much what the deal with Iran was, so...........

Not sure how you seem to be convinced you know everything that was agreed to or is being proposed.......

I can acknowledge I have no idea and so will just wait patiently while they negotiate to see if anything concrete comes out of it.

Maybe you can provide a link that shows inspectors are not allowed in Iran at all. Because by
this account, they are. Which is more than what NK agreed to (or probably will agree to).

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:36 am

raydude wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:14 am
Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am
Remus West wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:42 am
Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am Interesting how demanding Democrats can be of things they feel must agree to none of which Iran agreed to.

If he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to.......
The is one hell of an if. He gave NK basically everything they wanted in exchange for a promise to work toward denucleariazrion with no timeline for that work and no real means of monitoring progress.
Which is pretty much what the deal with Iran was, so...........

Not sure how you seem to be convinced you know everything that was agreed to or is being proposed.......

I can acknowledge I have no idea and so will just wait patiently while they negotiate to see if anything concrete comes out of it.
Maybe you can provide a link that shows inspectors are not allowed in Iran at all. Because by
this account, they are. Which is more than what NK agreed to (or probably will agree to).

Oh they are allowed there, just not to go to anywhere. Only to sites that Iran declared (because you know we can trust them to only do nuclear work at those sites). In many case they aren't even allowed to go to the sites but examine samples provided by Iran again because we can just trust them to do that. Uranium to Russia, because we know our buddy Putin will oversee it properly. Heavy water to Oman who we can trust despite them being buddies with Iran. Might as well have sent the Uranium and heavy water to NK to hold.

My biggest fear is that we will give NK a deal that is as full of holes as the Iranian one. Of course if the details are as hidden as the details of the Iranian one we might not know till way after the fact just like we are doomed to find out how the Iranians have circumvented that one. Only time will tell just how bad of a deal it was.

Thanks Obama!

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:06 am

Trump has taught the dictator's of the world that if they build nuclear weapons and then threaten to use them, the President of the United States of America will have dinner with them.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:12 am

Trump speaking to George Stephanopoulos.

It's typical Trumpian word salad mixed with the kind of sick praise that should make any American's stomach churn:

G: What other kinds of security guarantees did you offer, did you put on the table?

T: Well, we’ve given him, I don’t wanna talk about it specifically, but we’ve given him, he’s going to be happy. His country does love him. His people, you see the fervor. They have a great fervor. They're gonna put it together, and I think they’re going to end up with a very strong country, and a country which has people -- that they’re so hard working, so industrious. I think if you look at South Korea, someday, maybe in the not too distant future, it will be something that.

G: How do you trust him, though? Is he willing to change? Do you believe he’s changed?

T: Well, you know, over my lifetime I've done a lot of deals with a lot of people, and sometimes the people that you most distrust turn out to be the most honorable ones, and the people that you do trust they are not the honorable ones, so we are starting from a very high plane, we’re starting from a very good relationship.

"And his gulags! Have you seen them? Just the best gulags. Best gulags in the world! Everybody says so."

Meanwhile, there's a "special place in Hell" for the Prime Minister of Canada.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:15 am

$iljanus wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:21 am
Stefan Stirzaker wrote:And Exercises in the area on hold indefinitely because trump says they're a "provocation". SK and Japan apparently surprised and not informed.

But...those beaches. Best condos in the world apparently!

MAGA
Well we do need to reallocate military assets in our upcoming fight against the true enemy, Canada.

Trudeau better offer up some prime real estate for a Trump property quick...

I only half jokingly think that may happen now. I feel like you guys are turning into 1930s Germany and we're going to be Poland

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:19 am

Dennis Rodman is beginning his vindication tour. So...success?

Wearing a red “Make America Great Again” hat, a piece of apparel that serves as an identifier for supporters of Mr Trump, Mr Rodman said “it’s a great day for everybody - Singapore, Tokyo, China, everybody”.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:21 am

Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am If he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to.......

Add UN or some other independent source other than the US two only apparent "allies" China and Russia and I'll agree. I'm not holding my breath for either of them.

http://www.businessinsider.com/china-kn ... ?r=UK&IR=T

https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/sta ... 80770?s=19

I've just realised #China must have been informed that #USA and #SouthKorea were going to halt joint military drills! The Foreign Ministry spokesperson (before President Trump's press conference) said: "Our suspension for suspension process is right and has been realised"! #DPRK
2:57 AM - 12 Jun 2018

"USFK has received no updated guidance on execution or cessation of training exercises - to include this fall's schedule Ulchi Freedom Guardian," US Forces in Korea Lt. Col. Jennifer Lovett said in a statement seen by Reuters.

"In coordination with our ROK partners, we will continue with our current military posture until we receive updated guidance from the Department of Defense (DoD) and/or Indo-Pacific Command (INDOPACOM)."

My biggest fear is that we will give NK a deal that is as full of holes as the Iranian one.

I'd think your biggest fear is you gave China and NK everything they've been asking for, turned on SK, left our military in the dark and got so far we've managed to secure IP for Ivanka in return. But that shows what I know.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:27 am

All Trump had to do in that first meeting alone with Kim is double cross Bolton, and put a complete permanent US pullout on the table and we can get rid of Rocket Man's nukes. We've propped up South Korea and Japan long enough. It's not like they really want us there, and it's not like we can defeat China in anything but a nuclear war which we can't have. Good time to leave before we accidentally end up in a conventional war with China for no good reason. With less troops in the region it makes it harder for idiots to take us to war anytime the military industrial complex wants also. I'm a firm believer in Ike's parting message.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:30 am

They didn't have nukes when this whole thing started. What's changed that simply removing weapons that were never there in the first place will get the US to pull out of the region?

Do you understand why the US moved into the region or why it's still there? Hint: It's not nukes. Chicken/egg and all that.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:33 am

And 30 seconds of research on "Suspension for Suspension" and boom goes the dynamite.

http://www.dw.com/en/russia-ready-to-co ... a-40754133

News
Russia 'ready to combine efforts' with North Korea toward peaceful solution to nuclear crisis

Russia supported US-led sanctions against North Korea after Pyongyang's most recent nuclear test. But Russian officials have now discussed another solution with a senior North Korean diplomat in Moscow.

Russian foreign ministry building in Moscow

Russia is willing to work with North Korea on a peaceful solution to tensions sparked by Pyongyang's recent nuclear and missile tests, the Russian Foreign Ministry said after meetings between the two sides in Moscow on Friday.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:33 am

In a nutshell...

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:40 am

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:41 am

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:30 am They didn't have nukes when this whole thing started. What's changed that simply removing weapons that were never there in the first place will get the US to pull out of the region?

Do you understand why the US moved into the region or why it's still there? Hint: It's not nukes. Chicken/egg and all that.

Electing Trump is what changed, he listens to the people who elected him.

We left Vietnam and that turned out ok. We don't need to project power over there. China isn't going to invade their neighbors, they get what they want over there by other means. The only reasons we're still there is 50,000 dead US soldiers and a military industrial complex that must be fed. Since I left the USN almost every single ship has been replaced, that's absolutely ridiculous spending. My cousin lives in a house built in 1925, the USN can get by with less spending.

raydude · Post by **raydude** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:45 am

Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:36 am
raydude wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:14 am
Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:57 am
Remus West wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:42 am
Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:53 am Interesting how demanding Democrats can be of things they feel must agree to none of which Iran agreed to.

If he can get concrete verifiable destruction of just the nuclear weapons and material enrichment facilities that would be well beyond what Iran agreed to.......
The is one hell of an if. He gave NK basically everything they wanted in exchange for a promise to work toward denucleariazrion with no timeline for that work and no real means of monitoring progress.
Which is pretty much what the deal with Iran was, so...........

Not sure how you seem to be convinced you know everything that was agreed to or is being proposed.......

I can acknowledge I have no idea and so will just wait patiently while they negotiate to see if anything concrete comes out of it.
Maybe you can provide a link that shows inspectors are not allowed in Iran at all. Because by
this account, they are. Which is more than what NK agreed to (or probably will agree to).
My biggest fear is that we will give NK a deal that is as full of holes as the Iranian one. Of course if the details are as hidden as the details of the Iranian one we might not know till way after the fact just like we are doomed to find out how the Iranians have circumvented that one. Only time will tell just how bad of a deal it was.

Thanks Obama!

My biggest fear, and one that is founded on Trump's MO, is that there is no deal at all, that this initial signing is it, that there is no follow-through, and that Trump will take the credit and proclaim "NK Has no more nukes!"

As illustrated by his previous behavior with

More layoffs at Indiana factory Trump made deal to keep open
declaring an opioid crisis but not asking for funds
promising to lower drug prices

No follow-through on any of them.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:45 am

I really believe Trump's affinity for autocrats and nationalism has him dreaming of a new order where the US/Russia/China and assorted dictatorships stand against and dominate the soft, diverse, pluralist democracies of Europe. All the indications and all of Trump's diplomatic choices point that way. It's staring us in the face.

I can picture Bannon whispering it into Trump's ear like Grima Wormtongue during the campaign, but I think the predilections were always there.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:46 am

em2nought wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:41 am
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:30 am They didn't have nukes when this whole thing started. What's changed that simply removing weapons that were never there in the first place will get the US to pull out of the region?

Do you understand why the US moved into the region or why it's still there? Hint: It's not nukes. Chicken/egg and all that.
Electing Trump is what changed, he listens to the people who elected him.

You've summed up the core problem right there.

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:45 am I really believe Trump's affinity for autocrats and nationalism has him dreaming of a new order where the US/Russia/China and assorted dictatorships stand against and dominate the soft, diverse, pluralist democracies of Europe. All the indications and all of Trump's diplomatic choices point that way. It's staring us in the face.

I truly believe it's that Trump spent his entire life trying to emulate a mob boss (see his history of cozying up to their lawyers, etc.), so he views the world thusly: if someone is strong and ruthless and they like you, you're in.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:54 am

hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:46 am You've summed up the core problem right there.

Captain Caveman · Post by **Captain Caveman** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:55 am

So the deal isn't really a deal because there's no enforcement, no verification. It's just a statement of intent, which is similar to those NK has made and then violated time and time again. Meanwhile, Trump is out there saying he thinks they'll begin dismantling their nukes very soon and very rapidly. Either he's completely ignorant about what just happened or he's lying about it, but my greater worry is that this is all a pretext for when NK doesn't take any action to claim that we tried diplomacy, they back-stabbed us, so now we must let the bombs fly. Bolton was in the room after all. Or maybe this is just a signal of our tactic acceptance that NK will be a nuclear power and we'll have to live with it.

Most likely scenario is that Trump gave up concessions to get a photo op and seem like a big powerful important person.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:03 am

I think Trump made this all happen to give his base and those few undecided voters a boost coming into the midterms in an effort to maintain his current power structure and thus enable further building of the coallition that Holman mentioned.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:14 am

The real question I have is, who sucked whose dick in that room?