Immigration Policy

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
ImLawBoy
Forum Admin
Posts: 14950
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by ImLawBoy »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:57 pm Does the word "respectively" work there? It seems to me that you use respectively when corresponding 2 pairs of things.
The best I can come up with is that the eugenicist was Republican and the white supremacist was Democrat. Pretty awkward way to say it if that's the case, though.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
User avatar
em2nought
Posts: 5306
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:48 am

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by em2nought »

Kraken wrote: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:09 pm 75 percent of Americans think immigration, in general, is good for the nation, according to Gallup, which surveyed more than 1,500 adults during the first two weeks of June.
L E G A L, and yes I think LEGAL immigration at sustainable levels is a good thing. Even better if we do it like New Zealand.
Some standards may seem a little strict but the aim is to welcome those with open arms who can add something beneficial to our wonderful country and deter those who would not.
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16433
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Zarathud »

Those who love America so much to risk everything to come to this nation are better for the country than those whose love of nationalism leads them to turn away from others in America. All immigrants add to the American dream, while Trump corrupts its soul.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by El Guapo »

Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

I guess my question to those in favour of legal immigration versus illegal immigration is what do you find appealing about one but distasteful about the other?

Is it just legal versus illegal or are there attributes that stand out for you?

If I wait at a cross walk or jaywalk, in the end I'm across the street. The fact that I was starving to death and had a drug cartel looking for me probably influenced my decision.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:41 pm I guess my question to those in favour of legal immigration versus illegal immigration is what do you find appealing about one but distasteful about the other?

Is it just legal versus illegal or are there attributes that stand out for you?

If I wait at a cross walk or jaywalk, in the end I'm across the street. The fact that I was starving to death and had a drug cartel looking for me probably influenced my decision.
It's because there's a limit to the number of immigrants that can come into a country before it starts to cause detrimental effects. Canada (nor any other OECD country) doesn't allow unlimited immigration either.

I'm sure the numbers are higher than most countries allow today, but there is a number that's reasonable. I don't know what it is.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

ND, so if I'm reading you properly, the problem isn't legal/illegal, it's numbers, is that right?

At what number do the negatives outweigh the positives? If you don't know, can you at least tell me if you think it is being exceeded today or not?


Canada has 10% of the US's population with around 10% the infrastructure, but I thought the problem was legal/illegal, not numbers.

Why has the US agreed to take in refugees then clos d the door to them? Why agree to humanitarians efforts then decide no? Is this related to immigration attitudes, numbers or something else? Why do some states refuse refugees once those refugees are in the country legally. Is that related to this topic or no?

Edit:. Posting by phone is hell. Trying to fix all the mistakes wore me out. I give up.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:02 pm ND, so if I'm reading you properly, the problem isn't legal/illegal, it's numbers, is that right?

At what number do the negatives outweigh the positives? If you don't know, can you at least tell me if you think it is being exceeded today or not?


Canada has 10% of the US's population with around 10% the infrastructure, but I thought the problem was legal/illegal, not numbers.

Why has the US agreed to take in refugees then clos d the door to them? Why agree to humanitarians efforts then decide no? Is this related to immigration attitudes, numbers or something else? Why do some states refuse refugees once those refugees are in the country legally. Is that related to this topic or no?

Edit:. Posting by phone is hell. Trying to fix all the mistakes wore me out. I give up.
Caveat: This is not something I am at all familiar with, so treat anyone else opinion as more valid. I know a bit about the economics, but little about health and education impact.

I suspect the current immigration numbers are too low nominally. However, the ability to process the immigrants is not optimal. In other words, if we could improve the naturalization or visa process, I suspect we could easily handle a lot more immigrants.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by El Guapo »

In a sane world this is something where a bipartisan deal should be doable. Basically a bill that would:

(1) Increase the overall legal immigration levels;
(2) Create a guest worker program (because there's a lot of evidence that many Mexicans would prefer to work in the U.S. seasonally but not permanently);
(3) Create the e-verify system that the GOP wants and otherwise enhance illegal immigration enforcement.

BUT we're not in a sane environment, and clearly the Trump administration wants to reduce immigration (especially by darker skinned persons) writ large, not just illegal immigration.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
stessier
Posts: 29816
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: SC

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by stessier »

I would suggest that currently we could handle more than could get to us, so there is no reason for limits.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Running____2014: 1300.55 miles____2015: 2036.13 miles____2016: 1012.75 miles____2017: 1105.82 miles____2018: 1318.91 miles__2019: 2000.00 miles
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

I don't think any of us are experts, but those who have strong immigration stances seem less expert than most.

I could be swayed by strong, fact and science based policy arguments, but somehow illegal immigration is always emotions based, or heavily tainted and manipulated data.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by El Guapo »

stessier wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:19 pm I would suggest that currently we could handle more than could get to us, so there is no reason for limits.
We still have huge states where almost nobody lives, e.g. Wyoming. The idea that we are anywhere close to levels that we can't handle seems pretty laughable.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:42 pm
stessier wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:19 pm I would suggest that currently we could handle more than could get to us, so there is no reason for limits.
We still have huge states where almost nobody lives, e.g. Wyoming. The idea that we are anywhere close to levels that we can't handle seems pretty laughable.
What about teachers and doctors? Have you given any thought to the extra stress it would put on our welfare system? While I tend to agree that these are motivated workers and overall productive, most are not college educated and would be well below median income.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
NickAragua
Posts: 6100
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by NickAragua »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:51 pm
El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:42 pm
stessier wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:19 pm I would suggest that currently we could handle more than could get to us, so there is no reason for limits.
We still have huge states where almost nobody lives, e.g. Wyoming. The idea that we are anywhere close to levels that we can't handle seems pretty laughable.
What about teachers and doctors? Have you given any thought to the extra stress it would put on our welfare system? While I tend to agree that these are motivated workers and overall productive, most are not college educated and would be well below median income.
Right, so that obviously means we should shoot people on sight as they approach the border.

Your points are legitimate concerns. However, they are not insurmountable. Maybe something like an "immigrant support grant", for which towns and cities with a significant immigrant population can apply. Pay for it by a) bringing the corporate tax rate back up by a quarter of a percent for large corporations and b) having people who hire migrant workers contribute to the fund.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:22 pm I don't think any of us are experts, but those who have strong immigration stances seem less expert than most.

I could be swayed by strong, fact and science based policy arguments, but somehow illegal immigration is always emotions based, or heavily tainted and manipulated data.
Europe is currently dealing with immigration stress especially in Germany. They are around 20% non-German born. They are now closed to non-skilled workers though you can still seek asylum. Germany is the second most popular migrant destination.

For comparison, Switzerland is 25% and Canada is 22%.

The US is about 14% foreign born, though that's only counting legal immigrants. Adding illegal immigrants makes it close to 20%.

I think we can clearly add more immigrants. I disagree that we can open the border as stessier and El Guapo suggest. Similar ratios in other nations have caused them to rethink their policies and make immigration more restrictive.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 23583
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Pyperkub »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:18 pm In a sane world this is something where a bipartisan deal should be doable. Basically a bill that would:

(1) Increase the overall legal immigration levels;
(2) Create a guest worker program (because there's a lot of evidence that many Mexicans would prefer to work in the U.S. seasonally but not permanently);
(3) Create the e-verify system that the GOP wants and otherwise enhance illegal immigration enforcement.

BUT we're not in a sane environment, and clearly the Trump administration wants to reduce immigration (especially by darker skinned persons) writ large, not just illegal immigration.
e-verify is already in place for employment, it just happens to be voluntary (and that's how the business wing of the GOP wants it - cheap, blackmailable, under the table labor which doesn't get insurance, can't unionize, and depresses wages).

You also forgot:

4) DACA fix.

Both 2 and 4 need a path to citizenship. 2 also needs to account for H1-B and other visa programs.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 pm Right, so that obviously means we should shoot people on sight as they approach the border.
so much for having a reasonable discussion.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 23583
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Pyperkub »

NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:51 pm
El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:42 pm
stessier wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:19 pm I would suggest that currently we could handle more than could get to us, so there is no reason for limits.
We still have huge states where almost nobody lives, e.g. Wyoming. The idea that we are anywhere close to levels that we can't handle seems pretty laughable.
What about teachers and doctors? Have you given any thought to the extra stress it would put on our welfare system? While I tend to agree that these are motivated workers and overall productive, most are not college educated and would be well below median income.
Right, so that obviously means we should shoot people on sight as they approach the border.

Your points are legitimate concerns. However, they are not insurmountable. Maybe something like an "immigrant support grant", for which towns and cities with a significant immigrant population can apply. Pay for it by a) bringing the corporate tax rate back up by a quarter of a percent for large corporations and b) having people who hire migrant workers contribute to the fund.
This National Guardsman sees your sarcasm and raises as if it were true:
An Oregonian national guardsman who left a violent comment about immigrants on an online fundraising page is now facing an unknown punishment, according to a Monday Washington Post report.

“Waste of money,” Gerod Martin wrote on the Facebook page for the online fundraiser working to “reunite an immigrant parent with their child.“ “They’re lucky we aren’t executing them.”
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
NickAragua
Posts: 6100
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by NickAragua »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:07 pm
NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 pm Right, so that obviously means we should shoot people on sight as they approach the border.
so much for having a reasonable discussion.
Well, until we get the people who actually think this is a reasonable policy out of power, there is no reasonable discussion to be had.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:20 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:07 pm
NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 pm Right, so that obviously means we should shoot people on sight as they approach the border.
so much for having a reasonable discussion.
Well, until we get the people who actually think this is a reasonable policy out of power, there is no reasonable discussion to be had.
Weird. I thought Green Goo, stessier, El Guapo and I were doing fine.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
NickAragua
Posts: 6100
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:20 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by NickAragua »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:49 pm
NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:20 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:07 pm
NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 pm Right, so that obviously means we should shoot people on sight as they approach the border.
so much for having a reasonable discussion.
Well, until we get the people who actually think this is a reasonable policy out of power, there is no reasonable discussion to be had.
Weird. I thought Green Goo, stessier, El Guapo and I were doing fine.
Right, and it's great that this kind of discussion is happening here. However, it's *not* happening in the places where it actually matters. So I hope you'll forgive me a little bit of sarcasm.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

Germany has almost a third the population of the US crammed into less space than Montana.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:06 pm Germany has almost a third the population of the US crammed into less space than Montana.
Again, it's not about space. It's about infrastructure.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Combustible Lemur
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:17 pm
Location: houston, TX

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Combustible Lemur »

NickAragua wrote:
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:49 pm
NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:20 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:07 pm
NickAragua wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 pm Right, so that obviously means we should shoot people on sight as they approach the border.
so much for having a reasonable discussion.
Well, until we get the people who actually think this is a reasonable policy out of power, there is no reasonable discussion to be had.
Weird. I thought Green Goo, stessier, El Guapo and I were doing fine.
Right, and it's great that this kind of discussion is happening here. However, it's *not* happening in the places where it actually matters. So I hope you'll forgive me a little bit of sarcasm.
I would argue that it's starting in all the places that matter most: the homes of voters who three or four weeks ago thought Trump was gloriously protecting us from MS13 only to find out Stephen Miller Santa Monica fascist is gleefully using children as leverage against their parents. Thus forcing hundreds of thousands of Christian republicans to take a look in the mirror.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Is Scott home? thump thump thump Crash ......No.
User avatar
Skinypupy
Posts: 20333
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Utah

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Skinypupy »

Combustible Lemur wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:14 pm I would argue that it's starting in all the places that matter most: the homes of voters who three or four weeks ago thought Trump was gloriously protecting us from MS13 only to find out Stephen Miller Santa Monica fascist is gleefully using children as leverage against their parents. Thus forcing hundreds of thousands of Christian republicans to take a look in the mirror.
That makes the assumption that Christian republicans are capable of that level of self-reflection. I'm guessing very few are, simply because it's much easier to just dig in your heels and parrot Trump talking points.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
User avatar
Combustible Lemur
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:17 pm
Location: houston, TX

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Skinypupy wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:14 pm Right, and it's great that this kind of discussion is happening here. However, it's *not* happening in the places where it actually matters. So I hope you'll forgive me a little bit of sarcasm.
I would argue that it's starting in all the places that matter most: the homes of voters who three or four weeks ago thought Trump was gloriously protecting us from MS13 only to find out Stephen Miller Santa Monica fascist is gleefully using children as leverage against their parents. Thus forcing hundreds of thousands of Christian republicans to take a look in the mirror.
That makes the assumption that Christian republicans are capable of that level of self-reflection. I'm guessing very few are, simply because it's much easier to just dig in your heels and parrot Trump talking points.
Dems lost by 70 thousand votes. In a nation of 300million. Very few is still a decent sized city. And more and more official religious organizations are having to publicly justify or begin to rectify their devils bargain. See the baptists over this last kerfuffle.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Is Scott home? thump thump thump Crash ......No.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:13 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:06 pm Germany has almost a third the population of the US crammed into less space than Montana.
Again, it's not about space. It's about infrastructure.
Is it? In this case, what's the difference? Is there a level of infrastructure that will suddenly mean Germany isn't crowded as hell?
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:13 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:06 pm Germany has almost a third the population of the US crammed into less space than Montana.
Again, it's not about space. It's about infrastructure.
Is it?
Do you think education and healthcare infrastructure (buildings and labor) appears magically? If growth expectations tripled, which isn't out of the question), it would have a significant impact.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:53 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:13 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:06 pm Germany has almost a third the population of the US crammed into less space than Montana.
Again, it's not about space. It's about infrastructure.
Is it? In this case, what's the difference? Is there a level of infrastructure that will suddenly mean Germany isn't crowded as hell?
Germany isn't crowded as hell.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

Sounds like we're talking about ability to handle a large number of people in a certain amount of space.

That sounds like the same thing to me. Unless your argument is that you can create enough infrastructure to handle everyone no matter how many people there are, in which case I would disagree with that.

Can you clarify for me? It's the growth rate that's the problem?
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:59 pm Germany isn't crowded as hell.
Sure.

I'm inferring from your other posts and this one that the issue is the growth rate, then?
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:02 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:59 pm Germany isn't crowded as hell.
Sure. I'm inferring from your other posts and this that the issue is the growth rate, then?
Right. I'm sure there's a theoretical population cap, but at the US's size, I don't think that's a problem.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

Fair enough. I'll give it some thought. Given that immigration is not uniform across the states, there is certainly a larger growth stress on certain states than others.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:09 pm Fair enough. I'll give it some thought. Given that immigration is not uniform across the states, there is certainly a larger growth stress on certain states than others.
FWIW, as far as I can tell Canada doesn't allow unskilled worker migration except for asylum or family purposes.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41243
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by El Guapo »

I would have to research it more, but I assume that there are some practical limitations on how many / how fast it is prudent to take in immigrants. I suspect that those are somewhat moot, though, because I think (at least for large countries like the U.S.) you tend to hit the political limitations on immigration before you hit the practical / logistical ones.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70100
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by LordMortis »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:14 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:09 pm Fair enough. I'll give it some thought. Given that immigration is not uniform across the states, there is certainly a larger growth stress on certain states than others.
FWIW, as far as I can tell Canada doesn't allow unskilled worker migration except for asylum or family purposes.
If they did, there'd be exodus and they'd be clamoring for a wall to keep southerner's out and co-opting their culture. Good roads and inexpensive tuition and affordable health care are a mere 25 miles east by south east from my house and that's just in Windsor. I could use that as a gateway to move Vancouver who have one of best music scenes in the world for money.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by Smoove_B »

If you give me a second, I'll get there. Here in NJ we are quite limited on space. And not surprisingly, the wealthier towns enjoy the amenities of being rich so under the guise of protecting the environment, many of them historically adopted local regulations (as you can do in NJ) requiring lot sizes for homes be a minimum size. These towns said the idea was to ensure that each home is situated on a large enough piece of land as to guarantee that it's not acting as a source of localized groundwater contamination either directly by way of onsite sewerage disposal (i.e. septic systems) or indirectly (by way of fertilizers, weed killers, etc...), a claim that at first glance seems perfectly reasonable. Well, as you start to dig into the science, some of the towns created minimum lot sizes that were much, much larger than necessary. And sure enough, this resulted in keeping out cheaper, smaller, single family homes that would historically be purchased by the poors. This in turn, maintained the "elite" status of many NJ towns, as developers looked elsewhere. Sure, there were lawsuits but the intended effect was realized.

To bring this back to legal vs illegal immigration, my impression is similar. While I can't prove it, my sense is that some individuals pushing for legal immigration are really hoping that the government sets up enough restrictions and parameters to keep undesirable populations out. In the same way that NJ towns created lot-size restrictions, they're hoping the federal government creates a labyrinth immigration checkpoints to really regulate the types of people that are given entry. Oh, that's not the design, it's just this weird feature that emerges when the law is applied. And so, illegal immigration drives them nuts because it short-circuits the formal process they've put in place to keep people out.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by GreenGoo »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:14 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:09 pm Fair enough. I'll give it some thought. Given that immigration is not uniform across the states, there is certainly a larger growth stress on certain states than others.
FWIW, as far as I can tell Canada doesn't allow unskilled worker migration except for asylum or family purposes.
I'm not my country. If you'd like to discuss Canada's immigration policies we can.
User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 24461
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by RunningMn9 »

Yeah. I mean I can understand that noxiousdog is thinking about the practical impacts of immigration, because as a rule ND isn’t a giant bag of racism.

But I’ve met a lot of people that are anti-illegal immigration, most of whom have no actual interaction with illegals.

I’ll be kind and simply say that as a practical political matter, their objections aren’t based on a careful analysis of the civil engineering challenges.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
User avatar
gbasden
Posts: 7664
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:57 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Immigration Policy

Post by gbasden »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:18 pm In a sane world this is something where a bipartisan deal should be doable. Basically a bill that would:

(1) Increase the overall legal immigration levels;
(2) Create a guest worker program (because there's a lot of evidence that many Mexicans would prefer to work in the U.S. seasonally but not permanently);
(3) Create the e-verify system that the GOP wants and otherwise enhance illegal immigration enforcement.

BUT we're not in a sane environment, and clearly the Trump administration wants to reduce immigration (especially by darker skinned persons) writ large, not just illegal immigration.
Yes, the Trump administration wants to cut legal immigration by as much as 50%. And navigating the legal immigration system is hellishly difficult unless you are wealthy enough to afford a lawyer. I completely agree with you, though - making seasonal employment possible legally would benefit everyone.
Post Reply