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Shootings

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hepcat
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Re: Shootings

Post by hepcat » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:46 pm

malchior wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:35 pm
Hannity is already blaming it on the Democrats and Maxine Waters in particular. Trash humans are apparently in season.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Rip » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:59 pm

Looks like just a standard nutjob a longstanding hatred of the paper for outing him as a nutjob.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Alefroth » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:10 pm

Rip wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:59 pm
Looks like just a standard nutjob a longstanding hatred of the paper for outing him as a nutjob.
Well that's a relief.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Zarathud » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:16 am

All those headlines of "fake news" probably didn't help the hatred.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Rip » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:04 am





Ummmm, no not even close.

:whistle:

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Re: Shootings

Post by Skinypupy » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:17 am

“Don’t tickle the wall clown.” - MST3K

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Re: Shootings

Post by Rip » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:43 am




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Re: Shootings

Post by Rip » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:51 am

Skinypupy wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:17 am
You’re right, it’s “only” 154
Sure once you twist the definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting
The United States' Congressional Research Service acknowledges that there is not a broadly accepted definition, and defines a "public mass shooting" as one in which four or more people selected indiscriminately, not including the perpetrator, are killed, echoing the FBI definition of the term "mass murder". However, according to the Investigative Assistance for Violent Crimes Act of 2012, signed into law in January 2013, a mass killing is defined as a killing with at least three deaths, excluding the perpetrator. Another unofficial definition of a mass shooting is an event involving the shooting (not necessarily resulting in death) of five or more people (sometimes four) with no cooling-off period. Related terms include school shooting and massacre.
The lack of a single definition can lead to alarmism in the news media, with some reports conflating categories of crimes.
Word!

What explains the vastly different count? The answer is that there is no official definition for “mass shooting.” Almost all of the gun crimes behind the much larger statistic are less lethal and bear little relevance to the type of public mass murder we have just witnessed again. Including them in the same breath suggests that a 1 a.m. gang fight in a Sacramento restaurant, in which two were killed and two injured, is the same kind of event as a deranged man walking into a community college classroom and massacring nine and injuring nine others. Or that a late-night shooting on a street in Savannah, Ga., yesterday that injured three and killed one is in the same category as the madness that just played out in Southern California.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/04/opin ... .html?_r=1

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Re: Shootings

Post by hepcat » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:29 am

Christ, even counting the number of mass shootings in this country apparently pisses off gun nuts and their supporters. Hell, they get upset when you try to define it too. Snowflakes. What’cha gonna do, I guess.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Paingod » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:48 am

hepcat wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:29 am
Christ, even counting the number of mass shootings in this country apparently pisses off gun nuts and their supporters. Hell, they get upset when you try to define it too. Snowflakes. What’cha gonna do, I guess.
F##k their feelings, right?

It's goddamn sad that when I heard about this I immediately thought it was an attack on "Fake Media" by a Trump cultist. It's somehow worse that I'm relieved it's a garden variety wacko. :cry:
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Re: Shootings

Post by malchior » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:02 am

You know the rot is deep in our culture when we are at a point where we are forced into some soul-crushing exercise every time a massacre happens to classify them between 'wacko' versus 'gang-related' versus 'terrorism' etc.

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Re: Shootings

Post by YellowKing » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:38 am

To someone with compassion, even one mass shooting is too many. Much less the number of "real" (as defined by Rip) mass shootings we've had this year.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Unagi » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:49 am

Rip wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:04 am




Ummmm, no not even close.

:whistle:
Let's be clear though --- You are compelled to watch this new politician's Tweets and call out this Tweet as being inaccurate, but I've never once seen you scrutinize your man Trumps tweets at all --- and they are >constantly< filled with outright lies and he's not just some new congressman - he's the f-ing POTUS. What's wrong with you?

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Re: Shootings

Post by Archinerd » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:50 am

That number could be off by 100 and it doesn't change a thing, it's still too many. Really though, that number is doesn't matter because in the end it never seems to change a thing.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Rip » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:51 am

hepcat wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:29 am
Christ, even counting the number of mass shootings in this country apparently pisses off gun nuts and their supporters. Hell, they get upset when you try to define it too. Snowflakes. What’cha gonna do, I guess.
I don't have a problem with defining it.
according to the Investigative Assistance for Violent Crimes Act of 2012, signed into law in January 2013, a mass killing is defined as a killing with at least three deaths, excluding the perpetrator.
Most of those on the list don't meet the definition. Hell many of them don't have ANY deaths!

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Re: Shootings

Post by Holman » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:59 am

Someone shoots up a school and severely wounds 25 people. All receive medical care and survive.

Did no mass shooting occur?
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Re: Shootings

Post by hepcat » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:31 am

edit: Normally I'd welcome an argument with Rip on semantics in an age where outright lying is the hallmark of his party/the people he supports. But for some reason, my heart isn't in it today.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:43 am

Holman wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:59 am
Someone shoots up a school and severely wounds 25 people. All receive medical care and survive.

Did no mass shooting occur?
Depends. Are they black and poor?
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Re: Shootings

Post by Remus West » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:02 am

Rip wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:51 am
hepcat wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:29 am
Christ, even counting the number of mass shootings in this country apparently pisses off gun nuts and their supporters. Hell, they get upset when you try to define it too. Snowflakes. What’cha gonna do, I guess.
I don't have a problem with defining it.
according to the Investigative Assistance for Violent Crimes Act of 2012, signed into law in January 2013, a mass killing is defined as a killing with at least three deaths, excluding the perpetrator.
Most of those on the list don't meet the definition. Hell many of them don't have ANY deaths!
Actually, you do have a problem defining "mass shooting" as your quote clearly demonstrates. You quote a definition of "mass killing" which - duh - requires actual killings. The talk here is about "mass shootings" which only require that there be people shot. For future reference, neither are acceptable and should be treated as the tragedies they are.
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Re: Shootings

Post by hepcat » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:22 am

hepcat wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:46 pm
malchior wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:35 pm
Hannity is already blaming it on the Democrats and Maxine Waters in particular. Trash humans are apparently in season.
Goebbels gonna goebbel.
Goebbels must have got a slap from someone at Fox.
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Re: Shootings

Post by malchior » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:38 am

So basically his defense is he didn't say it was a direct link. As in he mentioned A and then B right after...several times. And then wonders why would anyone think A is linked to B? Sniveling coward.

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Re: Shootings

Post by LordMortis » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:38 am

[/quote]
This is our nation’s 195th mass shooting - this year.
Ummmm, no not even close.

:whistle:
Rip wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:51 am
according to the Investigative Assistance for Violent Crimes Act of 2012, signed into law in January 2013, a mass killing is defined as a killing with at least three deaths, excluding the perpetrator.
That's not even goalpost moving. That's Trump! Use semantics to define the conversation and then use the wrong semantic.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44126.pdf

According to the FBI, the term “mass murder” has been defined generally as a multiple homicide
incident in which four or more victims are murdered, within one event, and in one or more
locations in close geographical proximity. Based on this definition, for the purposes of this report,
“mass shooting” is defined as a multiple homicide incident in which four or more victims are
murdered with firearms, within one event, and in one or more locations in close proximity.
Similarly, a “mass public shooting” is defined to mean a multiple homicide incident in which four
or more victims are murdered with firearms, within one event, in at least one or more public
locations, such as, a workplace, school, restaurant, house of worship, neighborhood, or other
public setting.
As far as I can tell if you want to get semantic you are talking about the ill defined mass shooting vs the FBI recorded

The best I can find is secondary source wiki which cites CBS as primary source which does not cite the FBI
As of November 2017, the Federal Bureau of Investigation defines a mass shooting as an incident involving "four or more people shot at once.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-americ ... shootings/

And now I have gone through all of this trouble for something you don't care about. The point was simply this shit continues to be out of control and your response is to present nonsense as if it were conclusive proof that shit's not out of control.

Some people can point to evidence of 195 incidents of where a shooter shot four or people in succession

https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data

Other people will say It doesn't count because shooting people simply just isn't the same as mass murder, which the FBI has clearly defined in wake of Sandy Hook.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Chaz » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:55 am

Me, I don't really follow.

Until there's some kind of concrete evidence given, I assume everyone is arguing in good faith!

This practice of quoting the things people say and then using it as evidence against them is completely disingenuous and uncivil.

Everyone should assume the best about people and treat them kindly!

Here we are, on the internet, the place where ideas can be shared freely across the world.

I think we all should engage in thoughtful debate all the time, even if that sometimes (always) takes the form of unflattering pictures of politicians we don't like.

Moment to moment, we might find ourselves getting angry, but don't forget that there's more that unites us than divides us.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Rip » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:28 am

The issues with definitions of mass shootings/killings wasn't invented by me and is a real obstacle in historical comparison of statistics.
Beginning in 2008, the FBI used a narrow definition of mass shootings. They limited mass shootings to incidents where an individual – or in rare circumstances, more than one – “kills four or more people in a single incident (not including the shooter), typically in a single location.”

In 2013, the FBI changed its definition, moving away from “mass shootings” toward identifying an “active shooter” as “an individual actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area.” This change means the agency now includes incidents in which fewer than four people die, but in which several are injured, like this 2014 shooting in New Orleans.

This change in definition impacted directly the number of cases included in studies and affected the comparability of studies conducted before and after 2013.
Even more troubling, some researchers on mass shooting, like Northeastern University criminologist James Alan Fox, have incorporated in their studies several types of multiple homicides that cannot be defined as mass shooting: for instance, familicide (a form of domestic violence) and gang murders.

In the case of familicide, victims are exclusively family members and not random bystanders.

Gang murders are usually crime for profit or a punishment for rival gangs or a member of the gang who is an informer. Such homicides don’t belong in the analysis of mass shootings.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:49 pm

If the definition of a mass shooting doesn't matter, then every shooting matters. 1 person or 20.

But if that is the case, the vast majority of shootings are "mundane." Accidents, gang related, 2 willing participants, etc. Most are with handguns and not scary rifles.

Those shootings don't launch movements or bring in donations. And news networks only have so much time between commercial programming. So we only get "mass" shootings.

The way I see it, it's in the interest of both the NRA and the anti-gun groups to focus on the sensational shootings.

For the NRA, these are outliers that don't easily produce effective solutions. Those looking to stop such shootings are left playing whack-a-mole with every shooting. What kind if weapon? What kind of perpetrator? What location? And so on. You'll note that one of the first things reported now days is the type of firearm used, or if it is unknown, the fact that it was unknown.

For anti-gun groups, senational shootings are loaded with emotion and media coverage. They drive donations and support. Understandingly, the cause people to act and to demand change. Any change.


So we're stuck with the fact that "mass shootings" are what make the news, almost to the complete exclusion of "normal" ahootings. We argue over the definition of mass shootings. We argue over the definition of "assault weapon". It's like PvP wack-a-mole. All the while, normal guns are used in normal shootings at a rate that dwarfs mass shootings.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Kraken » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:45 am

Journalists have always been threatened by the unhinged and aggrieved. It's a natural consequence of doing their jobs right. And news organizations have always had an open-door policy, because community access is important.

When Wife was a beat reporter, decades ago, she covered a story about embezzlement at a Greek Orthodox church. The principles in this closed organization leaned on her paper to kill the story, which they considered an internal matter. After the story ran the church ended up suing both Wife and her employer, which caused her great anguish -- she has always prided herself on accuracy and fairness, and indeed they didn't have a case. After their lawsuit came to naught, the pastor made a vague threat against people who come snooping into other people's business, and that caused her even more anguish.

These threats are usually empty bluster. Actual attacks on journalists are still very rare -- I think I read today that there have been 24 in the past 25ish years. One hopes that having a president who calls journalists the "enemy of the people" won't make violence against them more common. There is no apparent political dimension to this attack, anyway...just another lunatic with a grudge and a gun.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Smoove_B » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:27 pm

Let's check in with human garbage person Mitch McConnell for his feelings on all these shootings:
“You would think, given how much it takes to get on an American plane or given how much it takes to get into courthouses, that this might be something that we could achieve, but I don’t think we could do that from Washington. I think it’s basically a local decision,” McConnell said.

“It’s a darn shame that’s where we are but this epidemic is something that’s got all of our attention,” he added. “And I know it’s got the attention of every school superintendent in the country.”

Congress has faced increased pressure this year to pass stricter gun laws, particularly in the aftermath of school shootings in Texas, Kentucky, Florida and elsewhere.
You would think Mitch, you sure would.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Pyperkub » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:42 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:27 pm
Let's check in with human garbage person Mitch McConnell for his feelings on all these shootings:
“You would think, given how much it takes to get on an American plane or given how much it takes to get into courthouses, that this might be something that we could achieve, but I don’t think we could do that from Washington. I think it’s basically a local decision,” McConnell said.

“It’s a darn shame that’s where we are but this epidemic is something that’s got all of our attention,” he added. “And I know it’s got the attention of every school superintendent in the country.”

Congress has faced increased pressure this year to pass stricter gun laws, particularly in the aftermath of school shootings in Texas, Kentucky, Florida and elsewhere.
You would think Mitch, you sure would.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:21 pm

Vegas
MGM Resorts International has filed federal lawsuits against more than 1,000 Las Vegas mass shooting victims in an effort to avoid liability.

The company, which owns Mandalay Bay and the Route 91 Harvest festival venue, argues that it cannot be held liable for Oct. 1 deaths, injuries or other damages, adding that any claims against MGM parties “must be dismissed,” according to complaints filed Friday in Nevada and California.
...
The company cites a 2002 federal act that extends liability protection to any company that uses “anti-terrorism” technology or services that can “help prevent and respond to mass violence.”

In this case, the company argues, the security vendor MGM hired for Route 91, Contemporary Services Corp., was protected from liability because its services had been certified by the Department of Homeland Security for “protecting against and responding to acts of mass injury and destruction.”

The lawsuits argue that this protection also extends to MGM, since MGM hired the security company.

They do not seek money from the victims but do ask that a judge decide if the 2002 act is applicable, and if so, determine that future civil lawsuits against the company are not viable.
...
Las Vegas attorney Robert Eglet, who has represented several Oct. 1 victims, said the grounds of the litigation are “obscure.”

MGM is a Nevada company, so any lawsuits belong in state court, Eglet said. He viewed the decision to file the complaints in federal court as a “blatant display of judge shopping” that “quite frankly verges on unethical.”

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Re: Shootings

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:27 pm

Can somebody explain to me why MGM should be responsible in the first place?
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Re: Shootings

Post by Max Peck » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:37 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:27 pm
Can somebody explain to me why MGM should be responsible in the first place?
You'd need to ask the lawyers.
“We can show through the totality of the events at MGM properties around world that this is something that could happen and was reasonably foreseeable, and they had a duty to provide adequate security and didn’t.”
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Re: Shootings

Post by Octavious » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:38 pm

I'm sure the argument would be that they didn't have proper security monitoring for issues like someone bringing in an armory. I don't think anyone would win that case, but people have sued for much dumber things. I know that Disney now forces people to let housekeeping in to make sure nobody is making a bunker or something. :lol: Sad world we live in.
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Re: Shootings

Post by stessier » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:00 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:27 pm
Can somebody explain to me why MGM should be responsible in the first place?
Because they have deep pockets.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:20 pm

This was precisely how I made my living for years.

Casino security isn't to protect casino assets. It isn't to prevent robberies (honestly, want to rob us? We'll hold the door open for you.)

Casino security is there because of two reasons: because the gaming code mandates it, and to provide an out for liability cases against the casino. They make an insanely high amount of money with extremely low overhead (in the 90s we used to say that the nickel slots paid every salary, wage, and tax, and bill for the entire casino - the rest was pure profit.) They also have an extremely large number of people moving around in them. It makes them a massive target for lawsuits, which is why they have both security and in-house investigators (got your wallet stolen? We'll help you file the police report, run an investigation, and pay for your room for your entire stay - just sign this liability release, please.)
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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:13 am

Toronto
Two people have been killed and 12 others wounded, one of them critically, by a gunman who opened fire on a busy avenue in Canada's largest city.

One of the dead was a young woman, while the person critically injured in the attack in the Greektown district of Toronto is a girl of eight or nine.

The suspect, 29, had "an exchange of gunfire" with police officers before being found dead nearby, police said.

The attack erupted on Sunday evening on Danforth Avenue.

The motive for the shooting, which reportedly targeted at least two cafes or restaurants, is unclear. Police have also not identified the suspect, only releasing his age.

In a video clip shared by Canadian media, a white man wearing a dark cap and dark clothing and carrying a shoulder bag can be seen stopping on a pavement and pulling out a handgun before firing shots.
...
Emergency services were called out just after 22:00 (02:00 GMT Monday). The site of the attack is a piazza with a fountain that is popular with local people and was busy at the time, the Toronto Globe and Mail writes.

A number of people were reportedly hurt in a cafe called the Demetres, while others were hit in the street.

One victim's death was reported soon after the attack, with the second death announced on Monday morning.

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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:44 am

CHICAGO — At least 39 people were shot over the weekend across Chicago.

The latest victim is a 56-year-old Andre Charleston. He was shot multiple times after getting into an argument with his shooter near 130th and Calumet.

From Friday to Monday morning, six people were killed and 33 people were injured.

...

A group of men were gathered around a park bench in East Garfield Park around 9:30 p.m. Saturday when four men came up on foot and started shooting, according to police. Seven victims ranging in age from 22 to 47 were struck, some hit in the face and chest, others in the legs. A 30-year-old man shot in the head later died.
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Re: Shootings

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:09 am

WaPo
It was a Saturday afternoon in the park, the Florida sunshine barreling down out of a cloudless sky. More than 150 kids flew around the grass, pinballing between two bounce houses and a pavilion. Organizers dubbed the occasion “Peace in the City,” an anti-violence back-to-school event in Titusville, a town on the Sunshine State’s Atlantic coast 45 minutes east of Orlando.
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Then the gunshots started. A dozen blasts. Laughter turning to screams. Parents frantically shouting names.
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According to police, an unnamed shooter opened fire in the park crowded with schoolchildren but an armed bystander intervened, shooting the gunman as he was trying to flee.

No other injuries were reported, Titusville Police Deputy Chief Todd Hutchinson said in a statement. “This suspect opened fire at a crowded public park, this could have been so much worse.”

The shooter suffered life-threatening injuries and was airlifted from the scene to a hospital, according to police.
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According to WFTV, the shooting stemmed from an old grudge.

The unnamed shooter went into the park looking for someone he had fought with three weeks ago over a basketball game, the station reported. The individuals faced off in a fistfight. The shooter left, returned with a gun a few minutes later, and opened fire in the crowded area, police say.

As the shooter was crossing the parking lot, he was confronted by a bystander, who was licensed to carry a handgun. The shooter drew his weapon again, and the bystander shot him in the head.
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Police say the bystander fully cooperated with investigators and no charges are expected to be filed against him. The incident, however, already has been slotted into the larger national debate about gun violence.

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Re: Shootings

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:39 am

Wait, he got into a fist fight and then returned, firing indiscriminately into the crowd?

In any case, nice shot, innocent bystander.

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Re: Shootings

Post by Blackhawk » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:11 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:39 am
Wait, he got into a fist fight and then returned, firing indiscriminately into the crowd?

In any case, nice shot, innocent bystander.
My impression was that he was firing discriminately while in a crowd, which isn't much better.
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Re: Shootings

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:37 pm

This weekend we had 60 something shootings including 5 mass shootings with 12 dead last I saw. One weekend.

At last count, zero arrests. Zero.



In totally unrelated news, here's how the Cook County State's Attorney handles illegal firearms:
Two of the men allegedly provided statements to the police implicating Ingram as the owner of the gun. According to the men, when the office initially pulled behind the car, Ingram told the other occupants he had a gun and removed it from his waistband. According to the men, he then placed it between his legs but they lost sight of it. Ingram denied knowledge of the gun according to the police.

None of the men in the car had a valid FOID Card or a concealed carry license. The police contacted the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office on two occasions that night asking for approval to charge Ingram with a felony gun charge. In both instances, the Cook County State’s Attorney denied the request.

Ingram, a 25 year old black male with a Chicago address, was charged with one count of misdemeanor unlawful use of a weapon and a Cook County Ordinance ticket for Possession of Cannabis under 30 grams. The other men were not charged.
(That kind of stuff makes the news in Oak Lawn)

Charged with misdemeanor unlawful use of a weapon that was a felony to possess.
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