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The New Bubble

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RunningMn9
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:56 pm

Isn’t that a false dichotomy? Your only two options aren’t crippling debt or lack of an education.

There are a few problems with the cost of college education in this country, but by and large it is self-inflicted. Cost is considered too late in the equation. Kids are making decisions on where to go based on stupid shit like where they will get the best “college experience”. And parents are making decisions based on which schools allow them to brag the most about their kids on Facebook. They deserve what they get if that’s how they are making decisions.

My son is entering his senior year and has already decided that he wants to pursue Computer Science. But he’s also decided that he is going to go to community college for two years, and then commute to a four year school to finish up the Bachelor’s degree to cut costs. It seems like a sensible plan.

When my wife mentioned it to a friend, she was horrified for poor RunningBoy1.

He is wrapping up his stupid summer homework (I hate it), and for Honors English IV he has to fill out applications to the top five schools he wants to go to, and write the essay for one of them.

What does that have to do with Honors English IV (which is entirely Literature-based)? It’s a waste of his time because he’s not applying to any of these schools. But the point is that the homework is forcing these kids to look at these schools which exposes them to the way that these schools market the magic of the “experience”, and it drives their desire to go to some bullshit private school for $65k per year.

And since no one has to eat the $65k per year up front, and they don’t understand the impact that has on them when they discover that a bullshit liberal arts degree in 13th century Sanskrit appreciation isn’t going to really open the door to employment prospects, it’s already too late.

He’s looked at like a freak by his teachers and guidance counselor, when he’s the one that is actually approaching the decision in a mature way (as the most or second most important financial decision he will ever make). When he asked his guidance counselor about community college options, she literally had no answers. She hadn’t thought of it. I was dumbfounded, especially since NJ has a program where the top 15% of students in the graduating class can go to community college for free and then get $5k per year for the final two years at one of the NJ state schools.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:05 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:56 pm
Isn’t that a false dichotomy? Your only two options aren’t crippling debt or lack of an education.
That depends on the context. The context given was one of crippling debt in order to pay for education. The solution provided to the crippling debt problem was simply preventing more debt. No solution was proposed for continuing education without those crippling loans.

The last paragraph was a sort of hand wave that the government needs to do more in terms of financial aid. In the meantime, to save people from crippling debt, we'll just stop extending credit to them. Awesome. How do they pay for their education at that point?

Sure, ND and such will say there are other options, and I agree that there are many ways to get an education. That said, there is a system in place, with systemic problems, causing crippling debt to many if not most students. Is that their fault? Maybe. They certainly shoulder some of the responsibility. Is it solely their fault? I'd suggest no.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:01 pm

Ok, I get where you are coming from. Sort of. I don’t really believe that there are systemic problems. Students and families aren’t forced to go to these schools that cost absurd amounts of money. They are choosing to do it.

They can simply choose to educate themselves somewhere else and the problem goes away.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:08 pm

It's not that I disagree but as with humans and free will, it's more complicated than that.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Combustible Lemur » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:09 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:Isn’t that a false dichotomy? Your only two options aren’t crippling debt or lack of an education.

There are a few problems with the cost of college education in this country, but by and large it is self-inflicted. Cost is considered too late in the equation. Kids are making decisions on where to go based on stupid shit like where they will get the best “college experience”. And parents are making decisions based on which schools allow them to brag the most about their kids on Facebook. They deserve what they get if that’s how they are making decisions.

My son is entering his senior year and has already decided that he wants to pursue Computer Science. But he’s also decided that he is going to go to community college for two years, and then commute to a four year school to finish up the Bachelor’s degree to cut costs. It seems like a sensible plan.

When my wife mentioned it to a friend, she was horrified for poor RunningBoy1.

He is wrapping up his stupid summer homework (I hate it), and for Honors English IV he has to fill out applications to the top five schools he wants to go to, and write the essay for one of them.

What does that have to do with Honors English IV (which is entirely Literature-based)? It’s a waste of his time because he’s not applying to any of these schools. But the point is that the homework is forcing these kids to look at these schools which exposes them to the way that these schools market the magic of the “experience”, and it drives their desire to go to some bullshit private school for $65k per year.

And since no one has to eat the $65k per year up front, and they don’t understand the impact that has on them when they discover that a bullshit liberal arts degree in 13th century Sanskrit appreciation isn’t going to really open the door to employment prospects, it’s already too late.

He’s looked at like a freak by his teachers and guidance counselor, when he’s the one that is actually approaching the decision in a mature way (as the most or second most important financial decision he will ever make). When he asked his guidance counselor about community college options, she literally had no answers. She hadn’t thought of it. I was dumbfounded, especially since NJ has a program where the top 15% of students in the graduating class can go to community college for free and then get $5k per year for the final two years at one of the NJ state schools.
Why didn't he submit the application for his community College and the university he wants to commute to? The English class probably had it tacked on by admin, because usually civics and or personal finance planning isn't a class. Though, fwiw the inner city school I used to work at replaced study hall options with a corporate internship to college sponsorship program, and college/ trade school/ scholarship prep classes.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Combustible Lemur » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:15 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:Ok, I get where you are coming from. Sort of. I don’t really believe that there are systemic problems. Students and families aren’t forced to go to these schools that cost absurd amounts of money. They are choosing to do it.

They can simply choose to educate themselves somewhere else and the problem goes away.
I would somewhat lay the blame at the feet of competition above all as a life philosophy. Anything less than the best is failure, is a great way to sell alot of shit, whether it's household crap, drugs, healthcare, or education. Sure it drives innovation but even smart people are just consumers in the WINNING system.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:28 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:Why didn't he submit the application for his community College and the university he wants to commute to? The English class probably had it tacked on by admin, because usually civics and or personal finance planning isn't a class.
First, the issue is that virtually all college applications are online now, so you can’t fill it out really without submitting it, or at least there’s no easy way to capture that you’ve filled it out. The online application for the community college is only available for the 2018 fall semester which he’s not attending.

And the essay he wrote was for Rutgers, which is where he plans to go eventually. I think he just randomly picked a few other schools without actually doing anything for them.

Few things anger me like summer homework. :)
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Chaz » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:18 pm

Summer homework is the worst, no question. My AP English class had five or six books on the summer mandatory reading list. One of them was Tom Jones, which is just a long, god-awful read. I didn't read it, and nobody else in the class did either, as far as I know. Still got a 5 on the AP exam.

I did something similar to RM9's son. I knew there was no way we'd be able to afford much in the way of school, so I always planned on going to a state school (UMass Amherst). I didn't know what I wanted to study, but had some friends there already, and figured it was a big enough school that they'd probably have something for me. I didn't bother applying anywhere else, and didn't even really look anywhere else. I did try to find some scholarships, but even with a stellar academic record, I hardly found any scholarships I was eligible for, and didn't get any of the ones I did apply to, so it was a good thing I went to a cheap school. I managed to get out with pretty minimal debt, and a degree that I don't use at all, but I'd like to think that getting a liberal arts degree taught me a ton of soft skills that I use daily in my current career path.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:28 pm

The idea of going to a four year school without knowing what you are going for just seems like a recipe for disaster, at least in this day and age. The other advantage for my son is that if he’s wrong about comp sci, it will only cost me about $2k or $4k to find out, rather than $15k to $30k.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:20 am

As more food for thought, this is also a self fulfilling prophesy. If people are willing to pay anything for the "college experience" then colleges have to invest in the "college experience." More facilities. More entertainment. Newer buildings. The university of Central Florida is spending $25 million dollars on an athletic upgrade which includes a lazy river.

It's tuition and fees that's going to pay for it.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Chaz » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:28 am

RunningMn9 wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:28 pm
The idea of going to a four year school without knowing what you are going for just seems like a recipe for disaster, at least in this day and age.
Why's that? I knew I was doing something in liberal arts, it was just a question of what. Going in thinking you were doing theater and deciding oops let's do business instead is probably bad, but going in undecided isn't awful.

Then again, I don't love the idea of college as a trade school anyway.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:29 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:20 am
As more food for thought, this is also a self fulfilling prophesy. If people are willing to pay anything for the "college experience" then colleges have to invest in the "college experience." More facilities. More entertainment. Newer buildings. The university of Central Florida is spending $25 million dollars on an athletic upgrade which includes a lazy river.

It's tuition and fees that's going to pay for it.
That's...that's not true. Paying for the college experience doesn't mean the college has to put in a lazy river. As we've discussed previously, college pricing is mostly driven by prestige and nothing concrete. The idea that an undergrad mechanical engineering degree from MIT teaches you even more and better about hundred(s) year old science than your state college is silly.

If you want to talk about athletic recruitment, well that's a completely different subject, and one that has little to no ties to education or tuition.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Kraken » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:50 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:20 am
As more food for thought, this is also a self fulfilling prophesy. If people are willing to pay anything for the "college experience" then colleges have to invest in the "college experience." More facilities. More entertainment. Newer buildings. The university of Central Florida is spending $25 million dollars on an athletic upgrade which includes a lazy river.

It's tuition and fees that's going to pay for it.
And the more financial aid there is available, the more schools compete to vacuum it up. There's a feedback loop there.

Elite credentials do matter in some fields (especially in academia -- another feedback loop), and more for graduate than undergrad degrees. The quality of a particular education itself is hard to quantify and depends largely on the student...the canard when I was at state university was "the more you put into it, the more you get out of it." But the quality of a diploma is quantifiable. A Harvard law degree opens more doors than a Cooley Law School degree, especially if one is knocking on the fancier doors. A doctorate from MIT will attract more grants than one from, say, RPI (which is a fine school).

It depends on one's ambitions and career choice. If you just want a well-paying job with a successful company, one undergrad degree is much like the next. If you want to be a rock star in your field, an Ivy League diploma might be worth the premium...although it's ultimately on the graduate to monetize that.

Also, college is as much about socialization as about education. How many high-ranking government officials were in the Skull & Bones club? If you're ambitious, you need to rub elbows with the right elbows.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:47 am

Chaz wrote:Why's that? I knew I was doing something in liberal arts, it was just a question of what. Going in thinking you were doing theater and deciding oops let's do business instead is probably bad, but going in undecided isn't awful.

Then again, I don't love the idea of college as a trade school anyway.
Because it becomes an incredibly expensive way to find out, especially if finding out that answer requires changing gears in a significant way that extends your time in school. I know a number of people that turned college into a 5-, 6- or 7-year plan because of that.

You may not love the idea of college as a trade school, but that’s the reality. It’s sole purpose is to enable employment. This isn’t 1575 anymore. :)
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Chaz » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:06 am

But...it's not. I mean, yeah, you're required to have a degree to get a job, but "go to school, study something, work in that field" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 076da1d677 just doesn't happen for the majority of people. A lot of employers don't care what your degree is in, they just care that you have a degree. Yeah, it's potentially an expensive way to figure it out, but how the hell else are you going to figure it out?

And look, I'm 100% not advocating going to an expensive school to do it. Like I said, I went to a cheap state school, and would've been fine with going to community college if it wasn't for the whole wanting to move out of the house thing. Also, if you're smart about things, you can spend your "figuring it out" time working on gen eds in that first year or so.

I'm not arguing that lots of people are on the 5+ year plans, and that's probably worth avoiding. I'm just saying that it's asking an awful lot of an 18 year old to know what they want to spend their next four years doing, let alone the rest of their life, especially when they may not have been exposed to a lot. Half the point of college is becoming exposed to a wide range of things, and giving that a chance to happen isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by PLW » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:30 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:29 am
The idea that an undergrad mechanical engineering degree from MIT teaches you even more and better about hundred(s) year old science than your state college is silly.

If you want to talk about athletic recruitment, well that's a completely different subject, and one that has little to no ties to education or tuition.
I can't speak to engineering, but I've taught Econ at MIT and at Clemson, and you definitely learn more at MIT.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:13 am

noxiousdog wrote:The university of Central Florida is spending $25 million dollars on an athletic upgrade which includes a lazy river.

It's tuition and fees that's going to pay for it.
They have to keep up with Texas Tech.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LordMortis » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:16 am

RunningMn9 wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 1:56 pm
Isn’t that a false dichotomy? Your only two options aren’t crippling debt or lack of an education.

There are a few problems with the cost of college education in this country, but by and large it is self-inflicted. Cost is considered too late in the equation. Kids are making decisions on where to go based on stupid shit like where they will get the best “college experience”. And parents are making decisions based on which schools allow them to brag the most about their kids on Facebook. They deserve what they get if that’s how they are making decisions.
There's a shitty deal going on in contemporary higher ed, but this goes a huge way toward mitigating it. Essentially, kids needs a crash course in understanding their finances before they put in college applications.
He’s looked at like a freak by his teachers and guidance counselor, when he’s the one that is actually approaching the decision in a mature way (as the most or second most important financial decision he will ever make). When he asked his guidance counselor about community college options, she literally had no answers. She hadn’t thought of it. I was dumbfounded, especially since NJ has a program where the top 15% of students in the graduating class can go to community college for free and then get $5k per year for the final two years at one of the NJ state schools.
That is inexcusable.
RunningMn9 wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:28 pm
The idea of going to a four year school without knowing what you are going for just seems like a recipe for disaster, at least in this day and age. The other advantage for my son is that if he’s wrong about comp sci, it will only cost me about $2k or $4k to find out, rather than $15k to $30k.
I dunno about that. Not all 17 and 18 year olds have their shit together. That's where the real advantage in life comes in and the upper middle class have the severe advantage. Their kids can cook for another two years taking in that college experience while figuring out what they want to be when they grow up. But for 85%+ (maybe a lot more +) of kids. Yeah, it's a crazy recipe.
Kraken wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:50 am

And the more financial aid there is available, the more schools compete to vacuum it up. There's a feedback loop there.
Ding. That's why high prestige schools try to appeal to "diversity" or out of state/out of country tuition rates. Before this thread, I read up on the increases in "administrative" spending to attract students. As a percentage it keeps going up and up and up. They want your dollars and they want you to spend more for your dollars, so they spend money to make money. I don't have time to look, but I'd love to see if that trend continues, throughout all this.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:28 am

Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:06 am
But...it's not.
Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:06 am
I mean, yeah, you're required to have a degree to get a job
I'll let you deal with your own statement there. ;)
Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:06 am
but "go to school, study something, work in that field" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 076da1d677 just doesn't happen for the majority of people.
I'm not sure what you are presenting this as evidence of. That college isn't a "trade school" because there isn't a 1:1 mapping between their job and the degree they ended up with? I think it's evidence of 73% of students wasting an *incredible* sum of money and saddling themselves with debt for no reason at all. When I say it's like a trade school, I'm simply pointing out that for many jobs, it's the price of admission. And I guess most importantly, that the purpose of college isn't actually about educating you, any more than the purpose of high school is about educating you. It's about turning you into an employee.
Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:06 am
A lot of employers don't care what your degree is in, they just care that you have a degree.
Well, that's certainly true for some jobs at many employers. For many jobs at many employers, that's less true as time goes on.
Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:06 am
Yeah, it's potentially an expensive way to figure it out, but how the hell else are you going to figure it out?
The only way to figure out what you want to be is to go to college?! That's certainly *a* way. And for some people, it might even be the best way. But it's not the *only* way, despite our cultural obsession with it. But it is a really expensive way, which is all I was saying. :)
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Chaz » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:58 am

I think the problem is different definitions of "trade school". In my head, "trade school" means getting training directly in a field that you then go on to work in. In a lot of ways, the STEM, MBA, and MD programs are trade school. You go to study those fields with the intent of transitioning directly, and exclusively, into working in them, and that training is mandatory if you want to work in those fields.

I'm pushing back because I have a visceral reaction when I hear someone implying that the only point of going to college is if you know what you want to do with your life, and if that education is directly applicable to doing that. I feel pretty strongly that college is and should be more than that.

If you mean "trade school" in that a degree in essentially anything is a requirement for most jobs, then yeah, it's a trade school. I don't agree that it should be, and I could also make an argument that most employers put too much stock in "has degree" as a binary qualifier/disqualifier, and there should be a lot more emphasis placed on relevant experience. Going to college should be optional for most, but instead, it's effectively mandatory for everyone if you want a shot at a better paying job. Unfortunately, that's become the standard, and there's really no way to change that without changing the culture of basically every employer.
I can't imagine, even at my most inebriated, hearing a bouncer offering me an hour with a stripper for only $1,400 and thinking That sounds like a reasonable idea.-Two Sheds

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:15 am

Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:58 am
If you mean "trade school" in that a degree in essentially anything is a requirement for most jobs, then yeah, it's a trade school.
I simply mean that the purpose of college is job training, not education. Once upon a time, a "classical liberal arts" education was about education. But that was hundreds of years ago. In 2018, it's about job training. That so many people spend so much money training for jobs that they don't even get, is bewildering to me, but it is what it is.

If someone has the money and desire to go to an expensive private school, I'm more than ok with that. Do it. But if you don't have the money but still have the desire to go to an expensive private school, don't bitch about the cost or the debt that you incur. You did that to yourself. (the royal you, of course, not YOU)

I approached things from an angle that made sense to me at the time:
1) What do I want to do? (Software Developer)
2) What degrees make the most sense? (Comp Science, Comp Engineering)
3) How relevant is school choice to employment opportunity? (It's not in this field outside of very few special cases)
4) What's the most cost effective way of getting 2) so I can get 1)?

For me, Rutgers College of Engineering was pretty affordable, and didn't require any debt (as I commuted 3.5 semesters). I didn't really consider the Community College route until I ran into some co-workers later in life that had taken that path. One of them, his dad was the CFO of some company, and really laid out the math for him. At the end of the day, he'd have a degree from Syracuse University, but here's how to get it for the least amount of money possible. His dad helped him make a great decision. A story I passed on to my kids.

My son seems much more practical about things, my daughter has determined that she wants to go to school for "something", on the west coast. So the first few decades of her adulthood will likely be spent bitching out the injustice of student loans that she took on through poor decision making. But people have to learn their own lessons I guess.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Chaz » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:29 am

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:15 am

I simply mean that the purpose of college is job training, not education. Once upon a time, a "classical liberal arts" education was about education. But that was hundreds of years ago. In 2018, it's about job training. That so many people spend so much money training for jobs that they don't even get, is bewildering to me, but it is what it is.
And there's the thing. Okay, so college is exclusively job training. If I don't enjoy any of the fields where college study in that field is required, what should I go to college for?
I can't imagine, even at my most inebriated, hearing a bouncer offering me an hour with a stripper for only $1,400 and thinking That sounds like a reasonable idea.-Two Sheds

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:21 pm

Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:29 am
If I don't enjoy any of the fields where college study in that field is required, what should I go to college for?
I think you have answered your own question. ;)
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:30 pm

Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:58 am
I'm pushing back because I have a visceral reaction when I hear someone implying that the only point of going to college is if you know what you want to do with your life, and if that education is directly applicable to doing that. I feel pretty strongly that college is and should be more than that.
People can (and do) go to college for whatever reason they want to go to college. Some people keep going to college because that's their thing. I've got no issues with any of that. I only have issues with folks that do that - and then complain about how expensive it is, or about how much debt they acquired while doing that.

As a practical matter, my personal position is that the expense of college is not worth it, unless it is justified in terms of impacting earning potential.

But don't confuse that statement as me implying that this is some sort of universal truth. "Worth" is inherently subjective. Someone can spend $100K getting a degree in Music Theory, and then get a job as an office drone somewhere that has nothing to do with any of that, and still feel that it was worth it to them. Just don't complain that you spent $100k + interest on any loans you took to do it.

I have friends that are still paying off student loans after 10+ years, who still think it was all "worth it" because they really enjoyed getting drunk with their friends all the time while in school. They aren't wrong. I mean, I guess I would assume that there is some cognitive dissonance going on, but that's just an opinion. In their minds, saddling themselves with debt for a decade+ was a worthy price for the "experience". That's their call to make, not mine.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Chaz » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:21 pm
Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:29 am
If I don't enjoy any of the fields where college study in that field is required, what should I go to college for?
I think you have answered your own question. ;)
That ignores that there are a plethora of jobs out there today where you can't go to school to study for them, yet they still require a degree. Without a degree in something, you don't even make it past the resume scanning bots, regardless of your relevant experience. There's also plenty of ways to get started on a career in a position without a degree in that field specifically, but where finding additional jobs in that field similarly require a degree.

It also ignores that there are benefits to a college education beyond learning a specific skill dictated by your major.
I can't imagine, even at my most inebriated, hearing a bouncer offering me an hour with a stripper for only $1,400 and thinking That sounds like a reasonable idea.-Two Sheds

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by gbasden » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:09 pm

Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 pm
It also ignores that there are benefits to a college education beyond learning a specific skill dictated by your major.
So much this.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by coopasonic » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:38 pm

Let's call them potential benefits because whatever they might have been, I don't recall anything of value that didn't come from the comp sci building.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:57 pm

Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 pm
That ignores that there are a plethora of jobs out there today where you can't go to school to study for them, yet they still require a degree.
I assume what you mean is that the jobs themselves don't require a degree, but the people doing the hiring won't hire someone without a degree (which practically speaking amounts to the same thing)?

With that in mind, wouldn't the goal then be to acquire the necessary piece of paper in the cheapest / easiest manner possible? Find the cheapest school, take the easiest major, get the piece of paper, and use that to get the job that just wants a piece of paper and doesn't care what it is. No?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by ImLawBoy » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:59 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:57 pm
Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 pm
That ignores that there are a plethora of jobs out there today where you can't go to school to study for them, yet they still require a degree.
I assume what you mean is that the jobs themselves don't require a degree, but the people doing the hiring won't hire someone without a degree (which practically speaking amounts to the same thing)?

With that in mind, wouldn't the goal then be to acquire the necessary piece of paper in the cheapest / easiest manner possible? Find the cheapest school, take the easiest major, get the piece of paper, and use that to get the job that just wants a piece of paper and doesn't care what it is. No?
If you have the cheapest piece of paper you can get, and someone else gunning for the same job has an expensive piece of paper from a prestigious school, the latter person has a much better chance of getting the job.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:00 pm

Chaz wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 pm
It also ignores that there are benefits to a college education beyond learning a specific skill dictated by your major.
Like what? Any benefit I can think that you might be referring to can easily be obtained from a variety of paths that have nothing to do with college education.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by LordMortis » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:09 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:59 pm
If you have the cheapest piece of paper you can get, and someone else gunning for the same job has an expensive piece of paper from a prestigious school, the latter person has a much better chance of getting the job.
Nepotism also plays a huge role. First, who you got to know when got that paper, and then not as important. Did you get your piece of paper from the same place I got my piece of paper?

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:12 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:59 pm
If you have the cheapest piece of paper you can get, and someone else gunning for the same job has an expensive piece of paper from a prestigious school, the latter person has a much better chance of getting the job.
If you are going to follow along, please do so completely:
RunningMn9 wrote: 1) What do I want to do?
2) What degrees make the most sense?
3) How relevant is school choice to employment opportunity?
4) What's the most cost effective way of getting 2) so I can get 1)?
If the answer to 3 is "It's important", then that has to be factored in. For my field, it almost never matters. For your field, it might be critically important. Knowing that in advance is the point of the exercise. Spending $65k per year for a college education at Brown University, and then ending up in a field that couldn't care less that you went to Brown, well, that's not a very wise decision, no matter how you slice it.

As a general rule, if the school matters to the prospective employer, so does the major. To use the most obvious counter-example, if I want to be a lawyer, than I would answer the above questions differently and choose a likely very different path than I would if I want to be a programmer.

And *AGAIN*, there is nothing wrong with throwing out the above list altogether, and deciding that it's super important that you graduate from Harvey Mudd College and experience the college life there on campus, to the tune of $69,717 per year. You get exactly one life to live, and if that's what you need for your life to be complete, then pursue that goal. Just don't complain about the fact that your education cost $280,000. That's all I'm saying.

That's a self-inflicted wound, and for that I have no sympathy.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:12 pm

I'm still sitting on nearly my annual income's worth of college debt 23 years later, and have neither a degree nor a job to show for it. I come down pretty hard in the "wasn't worth it" camp.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:21 pm

And then you have my oldest. He's a few weeks from 17, just started his junior year, and college has been on all of our minds lately. He's autistic and fairly high functioning (PDD/NOS if that matters), but has significant social issues. He can work with other people if he needs to, but never comes off as personable, and only gets his best work done working alone. He can explain a concept just fine, but when it comes to interactive chatter, either social or technical, he falls flat. My honest assessment is that, unless he can get a degree in something he loves for which the demand people with a degree outweighs the difficulties involved in hiring him, he'll probably end up on disability within a few years of high school. I don't think he could handle a 9-5 doing something he hated. It is his only real chance at a normal life.

With that bouncing through my mind, this entire topic scares the hell out of me. I don't see a solution beyond 'take the shot and hope.'

FWIW, he wants to study engineering, and he is extremely mathematically talented.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:59 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:21 pm
And then you have my oldest. He's a few weeks from 17, just started his junior year, and college has been on all of our minds lately. He's autistic and fairly high functioning (PDD/NOS if that matters), but has significant social issues. He can work with other people if he needs to, but never comes off as personable, and only gets his best work done working alone. He can explain a concept just fine, but when it comes to interactive chatter, either social or technical, he falls flat. My honest assessment is that, unless he can get a degree in something he loves for which the demand people with a degree outweighs the difficulties involved in hiring him, he'll probably end up on disability within a few years of high school. I don't think he could handle a 9-5 doing something he hated. It is his only real chance at a normal life.

With that bouncing through my mind, this entire topic scares the hell out of me. I don't see a solution beyond 'take the shot and hope.'

FWIW, he wants to study engineering, and he is extremely mathematically talented.
Blackhawk, my 2nd is entering middle school and his academic success so far has relied heavily on school board supplied education assistant, a modified curriculum (involving lots of alone time, 1 on 1 teaching and quiet room) and supervised homework at home. He's going to a new school shortly and while all of the above still applies, I'm fairly stressed out about it (as is he, if I can get him to talk about it). I'd like to talk to you about your son's experiences in high school and how you and he anticipate post secondary education.

My son is also high functioning, so that helps immensely obviously, but he has some physical shortcomings that make it more challenging. He can't really hold a pen/pencil or do any fine motor skills, although he's pretty good with a keyboard now (above average, I'd say) and a video game controller. He's also extremely uncoordinated and very heavy (my other 2 kids are string beans, as I was at that age). His weight and coordination negatively impact each other to make it much worse than each would be alone. Socially he sounds about the same as your son, although he's still young and still has a ways to go to mature enough to handle more adult focused conversations (like responsibility, planning, things of that nature).

So at some point I'd like to ask you some questions. I'd like to do it in the public forum and maybe a new thread in case it helps anyone lurking who might have similar questions, but if you're more comfortable doing it in PM (or not at all), let me know. Nothing specific right now, just general anxiety for everyone in the house as a new school year (and school) approaches.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:20 pm

I don't have many secrets, especially here, and I'd be happy to discuss whatever. Of course, I don't know how much help we'd be with this right now since we're only really starting the process now, and it won't kick into high gear until second semester this year. To be honest, I'm completely off balance with it right now myself. There are so many things we haven't figured out yet.

As an aside, Ian isn't physically hindered, although he's got terrible coordination. He can write, type, and draw just fine, but can't really kick a ball and is really awkward when he runs. He still hand flaps, toe walks, and hums (his main stim) from time to time. It's distracting, but doesn't really interfere with his own activities.
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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GungHo » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:12 pm
I'm still sitting on nearly my annual income's worth of college debt 23 years later, and have neither a degree nor a job to show for it. I come down pretty hard in the "wasn't worth it" camp.
I can definitely see how it's a YMMV kind of situation but I'm 180 degrees(actually 3 degrees but...yeah) from there in my thinking. I can't tell you 2 facts I learned at UT despite graduating from there with over 150 hours. Seriously. I remember nothing. Except that they taught me how to think. The next 2 schools (community colleges) both taught me very specific things(some of which I even still remember) but the classroom aspect of that portion of my education was identical to how I was taught in HS and it was almost nothing but memorization.
Both tracks have been invaluable in my life.


I respect that college is no longer just 'that thing you do after HS'; but it doesn't have to just be job training. And it's value doesn't always have to be measured in $.
OR
cry in a corner that the world has come to a point where you have to pay for imaginary shit.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:05 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:20 pm
I don't have many secrets, especially here, and I'd be happy to discuss whatever. Of course, I don't know how much help we'd be with this right now since we're only really starting the process now, and it won't kick into high gear until second semester this year. To be honest, I'm completely off balance with it right now myself. There are so many things we haven't figured out yet.

As an aside, Ian isn't physically hindered, although he's got terrible coordination. He can write, type, and draw just fine, but can't really kick a ball and is really awkward when he runs. He still hand flaps, toe walks, and hums (his main stim) from time to time. It's distracting, but doesn't really interfere with his own activities.
My eldest toe walks, although he's not really on the spectrum. This is a point of contention (whether he is mild asperger's or not) with my wife.

My 2nd son is very clearly autistic, with major humming/grunting (it gets really intense at times) and always has a stim to wave. He uses a plastic coat hanger (hasn't hand flapped in years, but MUST wave something) that his sister steals from him during conflict. You can imagine how that goes.

Anyway, this is not the thread for this. I'll maybe make a thread when I'm in the mood and more prepared to face these questions/answers/details.

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:07 pm

GungHo wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:24 pm
I respect that college is no longer just 'that thing you do after HS'; but it doesn't have to just be job training. And it's value doesn't always have to be measured in $.
I start all conversations on this topic with a question. Do you believe post secondary education has any value beyond getting a job? If the answer is yes, I know what to expect. If the answer is no, I know I have an uphill battle regarding the topic.

In this thread I'm not paying attention because I don't feel like getting into it and quite frankly I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks about it right now. :wink:

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Re: The New Bubble

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:21 pm

I suspect that people generally see value in their own path. The only problem with that is that in most cases they ran an experiment with only one iteration. That makes it really hard to evaluate the alternatives.

I see that value in my path, but I don’t think that it is universal. I see a lot of value in other paths. A lot more value in some cases. And I think that not enough kids are aware of or really consider the full gamut of possibilities and consequences.

They want to attend the school with their favorite college FB team. They want to go to the best party school. Which is great. Just stop bitching about the cost when you do that. You chose to do it and agreed to saddle yourself with the debt. Own it.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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