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SCOTUS Watch

For discussion of religion and politics

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Kraken
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Kraken » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:34 pm

Grifman wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:31 pm
coopasonic wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:47 am
Skinypupy wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:35 am
em2nought wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:24 am
coopasonic wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:01 am
Not to be serious or anything here, but you missed immigration especially those scary muslims. OK, I couldn't stay too serious for long.
Anyone whose primary reason for coming here is because they actually want to be an American is fine. If they're coming with the idea of altering what an American is, then yeah not so much. Is that so terrible? :roll:
I shudder to think of what your definition of "being an American" actually is.

And given such a warped definition, I also assume that yes, it would be terrible.
I wouldn't word it the same way, but like Skiny implies whether it is terrible or not depends on what "being an American" means to you. To me it's not much more than living in America. What are the other requirements? I'm going to assume learning to speak English? What else?
I would hope supporting our Constitution would somehow make the cut - though that might disqualify our current president.
I'd rather be friends with someone who burns the flag and waves the Constitution that someone who burns the Constitution and waves the flag. Not that any of my friends have ever burned either, but hypothetically....

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GreenGoo
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:43 pm

Grifman wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:31 pm
I would hope supporting our Constitution would somehow make the cut
Personally I think that goes without saying, but given the topic it's worth saying anyway. If I have any misgivings about people immigrating here from other cultures, it's that I worry that their core values undercut the freedoms that are the basis for our entire country. Forced marriages, honor killings, shit like that does happen on Canadian soil and it sucks. That doesn't mean I'm against immigration, but I don't want pockets of other cultures chipping away at our laws, freedoms and tolerance. I don't need (or want) full assimilation into what could be described as core Canadian culture (the French work very hard to keep what they consider their own unique culture from being overwhelmed for example). I just don't want cultural practices that are counter to the individual freedoms that I hold dear, getting too much of a foothold.

Shrug. Not all cultures are created equally, and I like the one I grew up in.

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Archinerd
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Archinerd » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:50 pm

Immigrants rarely do those things. Non immigrants also rarely do those things.

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El Guapo
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by El Guapo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:57 pm

There are really only two hopes now:

(1) Collins wants her McCain moment, and will dramatically announce her intention to vote no.
(2) Coons again seduces Flake, and/or some big news on Kavanaugh comes out in the next 24 hours, leading Flake to switch to "no".

That still leaves Manchin, but I think if either Collins or Flake said that they were going to vote no, Manchin would vote no.

But I would put odds of confirmation now at like 97%.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by El Guapo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:59 pm


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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by YellowKing » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:02 pm

In some ways I despise Flake/Collins more than the folks who we just know outright will vote yes. This wishy-washy crap, pretend to have a conscience, then back off stuff is just irritating. Grow a damn spine. Collins is going to "announce her vote at 3pm." Oh, the drama! Just STFU and admit you knew which way you were going to vote all along and this entire dog and pony show is a pathetic attempt to cover your own ass.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:05 pm

When the general direction of the nation is dependent on the perception of decisions elected officials will make...Christ.

File this under, "Brave Stands I Almost Took" by John McCain.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by em2nought » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:14 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:43 pm
If I have any misgivings about people immigrating here from other cultures, it's that I worry that their core values undercut the freedoms that are the basis for our entire country. Forced marriages, honor killings, shit like that does happen on Canadian soil and it sucks. That doesn't mean I'm against immigration, but I don't want pockets of other cultures chipping away at our laws, freedoms and tolerance. I don't need (or want) full assimilation into what could be described as core Canadian culture (the French work very hard to keep what they consider their own unique culture from being overwhelmed for example). I just don't want cultural practices that are counter to the individual freedoms that I hold dear, getting too much of a foothold.

Shrug. Not all cultures are created equally, and I like the one I grew up in.
I'm not sure if you're making fun of me here or not? I could have written that, it might have been a bit more ham fisted but it would have been what I meant to write. :clap:
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Alefroth
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Alefroth » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:23 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:57 pm
There are really only two hopes now:

(1) Collins wants her McCain moment, and will dramatically announce her intention to vote no.
(2) Coons again seduces Flake, and/or some big news on Kavanaugh comes out in the next 24 hours, leading Flake to switch to "no".

That still leaves Manchin, but I think if either Collins or Flake said that they were going to vote no, Manchin would vote no.

But I would put odds of confirmation now at like 97%.
And you're right. Sasse's spine is MIA.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:25 pm

Archinerd wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:50 pm
Immigrants rarely do those things. Non immigrants also rarely do those things.
Huh? They're the only ones who do those things, and only certain cultures. American immigrants don't do those things. Mexican immigrants don't do those things. Some cultures seem to value the exact opposite of the freedoms and ideals that I think exemplify my country. I don't like that.

Plenty of immigrants from those cultures find a comfortable home here without significant culture clash. Some don't.

Also, what do you think "misgivings" means?
Last edited by GreenGoo on Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:27 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:02 pm
In some ways I despise Flake/Collins more than the folks who we just know outright will vote yes. This wishy-washy crap, pretend to have a conscience, then back off stuff is just irritating. Grow a damn spine. Collins is going to "announce her vote at 3pm." Oh, the drama! Just STFU and admit you knew which way you were going to vote all along and this entire dog and pony show is a pathetic attempt to cover your own ass.
+1.

I'm good with that.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Unagi » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:29 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:25 pm
Also, what do you think "misgivings" means?
Trying to get out of going to Thanksgiving at the in-laws?

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GreenGoo
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:33 pm

Unagi wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:29 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:25 pm
Also, what do you think "misgivings" means?
Trying to get out of going to Thanksgiving at the in-laws?
Co-incidentally (or not, you might be aware already) it's thanksgiving weekend here.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Rip » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:39 pm

You are welcome.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Alefroth » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:01 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:02 pm
In some ways I despise Flake/Collins more than the folks who we just know outright will vote yes. This wishy-washy crap, pretend to have a conscience, then back off stuff is just irritating. Grow a damn spine. Collins is going to "announce her vote at 3pm." Oh, the drama! Just STFU and admit you knew which way you were going to vote all along and this entire dog and pony show is a pathetic attempt to cover your own ass.
Not just cover their ass, but negate any other criteria than whether he committed sexual assault. It was kind of a masterstroke.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Archinerd » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:29 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:25 pm
Archinerd wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:50 pm
Immigrants rarely do those things. Non immigrants also rarely do those things.
Huh? They're the only ones who do those things, and only certain cultures. American immigrants don't do those things. Mexican immigrants don't do those things. Some cultures seem to value the exact opposite of the freedoms and ideals that I think exemplify my country. I don't like that.
Not Canada, but not too long ago wasn't there an Amish group that was forcing children into marriages?
Not right or lawful, but it hardly shook the fabric of society.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:44 pm

Archinerd wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:29 pm
Not Canada, but not too long ago wasn't there an Amish group that was forcing children into marriages?
Not right or lawful, but it hardly shook the fabric of society.
Honestly, I don't understand your point. I have misgivings about secretive, isolated religious groups too.

Those people suck too.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by YellowKing » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:46 pm

It occurred to me that this whole nomination has reminded me of the olden days (ie 2 years ago) when one major news story would dominate coverage for several days.

Soon enough it will be over, and we'll be going back to 5-6 stories a week of how Trump f-ed something up.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:54 pm

To be fair, a controversial SCOTUS nomination that will likely alter the fabric of American jurisprudence for at least an entire generation is kind of a big deal.

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Kurth
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Kurth » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:02 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:14 pm
Kurth wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:36 am


Really? Being an American just means living here? If that’s the case, no wonder our social fabric seems to be pretty frayed right now.

No common set of core ideals? No common purpose? No shared history? No ties to each other? Man, that’s fucking bleak. No wonder people are all quoting Yeats. :?

And +1 to Chrisoc13 above. Well said.
What's bleak is thinking that someone who doesn't share core goals or have ties to others can't be an American. What happened to being yourself and independence? If you don't share my history, you can't be American. That's pretty fucked up. What's great about being American is that you can have none of those and still be American.
You are taking the liberal individualist thing to the farthest extent possible here, aren't you?

And you know I never said you're not American if you don't share my history. Total straw man.

The truth is, even in your answer, you support the notion that there's more to being American than just living in this country. When I think of core ideals of America, liberal individualism - which you seem to value quite a bit - is definitely at the core, but not at the exclusion of a number of other ideals and goals (e.g., a limited and representative government, social advancement, progress of the arts and sciences, etc.).

If we're just a nation of individuals with nothing else tying us together . . . that just sucks.
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:23 pm

Let's get back to hating on Mitch. Seen in The Suffocation of Democracy:
If the US has someone whom historians will look back on as the gravedigger of American democracy, it is Mitch McConnell. He stoked the hyperpolarization of American politics to make the Obama presidency as dysfunctional and paralyzed as he possibly could. As with parliamentary gridlock in Weimar, congressional gridlock in the US has diminished respect for democratic norms, allowing McConnell to trample them even more. Nowhere is this vicious circle clearer than in the obliteration of traditional precedents concerning judicial appointments. Systematic obstruction of nominations in Obama’s first term provoked Democrats to scrap the filibuster for all but Supreme Court nominations. Then McConnell’s unprecedented blocking of the Merrick Garland nomination required him in turn to scrap the filibuster for Supreme Court nominations in order to complete the “steal” of Antonin Scalia’s seat and confirm Neil Gorsuch. The extreme politicization of the judicial nomination process is once again on display in the current Kavanaugh hearings.

One can predict that henceforth no significant judicial appointments will be made when the presidency and the Senate are not controlled by the same party. McConnell and our dysfunctional and disrespected Congress have now ensured an increasingly dysfunctional and disrespected judiciary, and the constitutional balance of powers among the three branches of government is in peril.
Written by a historian that specializes in the Holocaust, Nazi Germany and Europe in the years surrounding the world wars. But hey, the GOP got their dude on the Court, so suck it libs.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Zaxxon » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:27 pm

Kurth wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:02 pm
When I think of core ideals of America ... e.g., a limited and representative government, social advancement, progress of the arts and sciences, etc.).
So, like, the opposite of modern Republicanism?

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by LordMortis » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:31 pm

this whole nomination has reminded me of
Why does this nomination conjure images of a time when you can't differentiate Man from Pig... Like the end goal of McConnell and his 1st Amendment Protection to shield his donors and hide his tens of millions earned in public office is to be able to enshrine "but some animals are more equal than others."

And I swear to Pancake that bastard (McConnell) looks more and more like a pig in that stock image the news loves to publish every day, as if their desire is permanently raise my blood pressure one or two points. It just happened now from typing his name.

And now that this image is burning, SHS will no longer look like the Iraqi Minister of Information Minister dude. She is Squealer.

Edit:
Smoove_B wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:23 pm
Let's get back to hating on Mitch. Seen in The Suffocation of Democracy:
If the US has someone whom historians will look back on as the gravedigger of American democracy, it is Mitch McConnell.
That's my perspective. We can hate on the Trump and Kavanaugh all we want but McConnell has chewed away at everything that is right with the rule of law for over 15 years and he made for damned sure we can't see who Rove has arranged to have paying him all this time. I'm not historian but I sincerely hope his name sits next McCarthy and Arnold in our history as the face of the absolute worst we've ever been.
Last edited by LordMortis on Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Defiant » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:33 pm


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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Captain Caveman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:42 pm

She's a yes. A long speech full of bad faith and naivety (she doesn't believe he'll undermine Roe or protect Trump. lol).

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Archinerd » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:47 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:44 pm
Archinerd wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:29 pm
Not Canada, but not too long ago wasn't there an Amish group that was forcing children into marriages?
Not right or lawful, but it hardly shook the fabric of society.
Honestly, I don't understand your point. I have misgivings about secretive, isolated religious groups too.

Those people suck too.
And you should.
Maybe I misunderstood your original point but what I'm trying to say is that I don't think immigrants are the sole cause of these problems. I also think that is obvious to most people.
FYI, Front page of the Washington post actually has an articlearticle about child brides right now.

Anyway, this is way off the topic of this thread now though, so I'm done here.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Skinypupy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:49 pm

The site that crowdfunds her opponent if she votes "yes" seems to be getting hammered.

It was up to almost $2.1MM last I checked before it went down...started at around $1.95MM when her speech began. :lol:
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by LordMortis » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:54 pm

Can we crowdpac someone to run against McConnell? And force the people Kentucky to watch and listen to what a piece of shit he is on every commercial break or advertisement subsidized bit of streaming until he's out of office? I'm not a wealthy man but I'd chip in fifty bucks for that.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:57 pm

You're focused too much on examples I provided solely to help illustrate my point. They aren't the point in and of themselves. I'm concerned about significant cultural clashes "like, for example...". It would be difficult to refute my point by picking apart examples, because you'd have to know all the cultural clashes that are possible ahead of time, and that's just not possible without exhaustive effort on both our parts. It should have been clear that I understand that not all immigrants cause these issues, not even all immigrants from cultures where we have actual real world examples of this sort of cultural clash.

That's fine though, moving on.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Captain Caveman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:58 pm

Manchin announces he's voting yes as well, so now they'll get to brag about bipartisan support for Kav's confirmation.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:00 pm

Nothing says bipartisan like 1 or 2 outliers.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by El Guapo » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:00 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:58 pm
Manchin announces he's voting yes as well, so now they'll get to brag about bipartisan support for Kav's confirmation.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Kurth » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:23 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:54 pm
Can we crowdpac someone to run against McConnell? And force the people Kentucky to watch and listen to what a piece of shit he is on every commercial break or advertisement subsidized bit of streaming until he's out of office? I'm not a wealthy man but I'd chip in fifty bucks for that.
This day is depressing, but the thought of this is one thing that has me looking up. Make it happen, and I'll pitch in!
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by LordMortis » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:33 pm

Kurth wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:23 pm
LordMortis wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:54 pm
Can we crowdpac someone to run against McConnell? And force the people Kentucky to watch and listen to what a piece of shit he is on every commercial break or advertisement subsidized bit of streaming until he's out of office? I'm not a wealthy man but I'd chip in fifty bucks for that.
This day is depressing, but the thought of this is one thing that has me looking up. Make it happen, and I'll pitch in!
I swear to Pancake my codependent relationship building into a shotgun marriage to a Donkey has a timeline that correlates nearly perfectly with his rise to power beginning in 2003 with this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McConnell_v._FEC (I didn't know he existed, really, before then but with my luck, he was probably the one who ultimately made W's going into Iraq a reality too, which would make his correlation 100%)

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:32 pm

Skinypupy wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:49 pm
The site that crowdfunds her opponent if she votes "yes" seems to be getting hammered.

It was up to almost $2.1MM last I checked before it went down...started at around $1.95MM when her speech began. :lol:

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:37 pm


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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Holman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:08 pm

Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by RunningMn9 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:18 pm

Holman wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:16 am
Zarathud wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:55 am
And so Kavanaugh's entitlement continues to ruin the lives of women everywhere.
Seems a touch hyperbolic, no? I assume that most women's lives won't be ruined when this shit box gets confirmed.
You and Susan Collins.
What am I missing? How has Kavanaugh’s entitlement ruined the lives of women everywhere? How will it continue to do so?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Holman
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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by Holman » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:20 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:18 pm
Holman wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:16 am
Zarathud wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:55 am
And so Kavanaugh's entitlement continues to ruin the lives of women everywhere.
Seems a touch hyperbolic, no? I assume that most women's lives won't be ruined when this shit box gets confirmed.
You and Susan Collins.
What am I missing? How has Kavanaugh’s entitlement ruined the lives of women everywhere? How will it continue to do so?
Not women everywhere. Only women interested in controlling their own bodies.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: SCOTUS Watch

Post by RunningMn9 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:30 pm

Holman wrote:Not women everywhere. Only women interested in controlling their own bodies.
I was responding to the comment that his entitlement will continue to ruin the lives of women everywhere. I just noted that it seemed a tad hyperbolic.

How is his entitlement ruining the lives of women everywhere? I assume your comment wants me to accept that his entitlement has stopped women from controlling their own bodies, and his entitlement will continue to do so. But I'm not sure that I get that assumption - or at least how it's related to his entitlement.

If you want to argue that his judicial philosophy might some day become harmful to the ~25% (and falling) of women that have an abortion - well, yes, that's possibly true (some day). WTF does that have to do with his entitlement or how it has been currently ruining the lives of woman everywhere?

Maybe it's ok to just say "Yeah, that statement is a little hyperbolic"?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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