Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020? No, it's 2020!

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gbasden
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by gbasden »

Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:06 am

The party desperately needs some new leadership, a younger generation that knows how to speak to voters. Elizabeth Warren, Chuck Schumer, and Dianne Feinstein, just to name a few, are exactly the sort of people you want working behind the scenes crafting legislation and twisting the arms necessary to get bills passed. But they are definitely NOT the people who need to be the leaders or spokesmen of the party. All three have committed unforced blunders in recent months that shows clearly that policy, not political strategy, is their strong suit.
Absolutely. Pelosi and Schumer especially are fantastic at arm twisting and horse trading, but they are horrible at being the face of the party and communicating why people should vote Democratic. Pelosi was awful on Colbert, and that wasn't a one off thing. They need someone like Beto who can fire a crowd and get across big ideas to engage with the voters and craft the party message.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo »

Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:06 am Since LBJ, the Democrats have only managed to control the government for usually 2 or at most 4 years before everything blows up in their face. The #1 reason for this, IMHO, is that they waste all their political capital pursuing unpopular policies that don't appeal to, nor provide a direct benefit to, the majority.
I'm listening.

What policies have they pursued that don't appeal or benefit the majority? Honest question. Because Obamacare used an entire term's (possibly 2) worth of political capital, but I wouldn't say it didn't appeal or benefit the majority.

Before that was Clinton. He seemed to do alright, but admittedly I am not familiar with what he burnt political capital on.

Just how far back do we have to go for these unpopular policies?

Before that it was Jimmy Carter. I was in elementary school, so I'd need a history book to know what was up with him.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Yeah, IIRC, healthcare was the #1 issue on Dem voters’ minds when Obama was elected, and that’s what he worked on (burning much political capital in the process).
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman »

I'm not sure what results Schumer can claim, but Pelosi knows how to get shit done, and she makes it happen. She's going up against Mitch McConnell, and this really isn't the time for on-the-job training.

Are there any ways in which she seems seriously out of step with the rest of party? I could be convinced, but are there strong reasons to dump her besides Pelosi fatique?
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Remus West »

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:28 am I'm not sure what results Schumer can claim, but Pelosi knows how to get shit done, and she makes it happen. She's going up against Mitch McConnell, and this really isn't the time for on-the-job training.

Are there any ways in which she seems seriously out of step with the rest of party? I could be convinced, but are there strong reasons to dump her besides Pelosi fatique?
The strongest is how villanized she has become to Republicans and left-fringe Republicans. People that may vote Dem will vote R just to avoid her much as many did to avoid HRC. We need to realize that those people need to be courted no matter how annoying it is. If Pelosi really wants to help the Dems she would not even run for Speaker but would work tirelessly on behalf of whomever they put front and center.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Remus West wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:06 am
The strongest is how villanized she has become to Republicans and left-fringe Republicans. People that may vote Dem will vote R just to avoid her much as many did to avoid HRC.
This was my first thought as well. She is by all accounts a great politician in every way except popularity contests. You want to keep her around as much as possible, with as little visibility as possible, because the GOP have long since turned her into HRC-lite. Which is weird that they would make two powerful Democratic women into boogeymen, right? I'm certain it's just coincidence that they've spent so much time maligning them.

Her job is not to be pleasant, and she's not. Her job is to get things done, and she does that well. Maybe not "McConnell well", but pretty well. It can be hard for humans to sell their souls to get what they want. It's easier when you have never had a soul to begin with.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:28 am I'm not sure what results Schumer can claim
IIRC, he played a big role in the budget deal that avoided a lot of the funding cuts that were threatened.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman »

Remus West wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:06 am
Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:28 am I'm not sure what results Schumer can claim, but Pelosi knows how to get shit done, and she makes it happen. She's going up against Mitch McConnell, and this really isn't the time for on-the-job training.

Are there any ways in which she seems seriously out of step with the rest of party? I could be convinced, but are there strong reasons to dump her besides Pelosi fatique?
The strongest is how villanized she has become to Republicans and left-fringe Republicans. People that may vote Dem will vote R just to avoid her much as many did to avoid HRC. We need to realize that those people need to be courted no matter how annoying it is. If Pelosi really wants to help the Dems she would not even run for Speaker but would work tirelessly on behalf of whomever they put front and center.
There's that, but then the GOP will only need about three hours to demonize Pelosi's replacement as "more extreme than Pelosi!"
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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The evidence also suggests she wasn't much of a factor in people's votes.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:25 am
Remus West wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:06 am
Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:28 am I'm not sure what results Schumer can claim, but Pelosi knows how to get shit done, and she makes it happen. She's going up against Mitch McConnell, and this really isn't the time for on-the-job training.

Are there any ways in which she seems seriously out of step with the rest of party? I could be convinced, but are there strong reasons to dump her besides Pelosi fatique?
The strongest is how villanized she has become to Republicans and left-fringe Republicans. People that may vote Dem will vote R just to avoid her much as many did to avoid HRC. We need to realize that those people need to be courted no matter how annoying it is. If Pelosi really wants to help the Dems she would not even run for Speaker but would work tirelessly on behalf of whomever they put front and center.
There's that, but then the GOP will only need about three hours to demonize Pelosi's replacement as "more extreme than Pelosi!"
Yep. I was originally going to wade in further, continuing to state that Pelosi needs to go (at least as visible, up front leader/speaker), primarily because I think she's out of touch with the younger Dem voters, but also because as GG put it above, she has been turned into Hillary-lite by the Republicans.

However, remember the hate for Bill Clinton? Obama? Harry Reid? Basically, anyone that has held a position of power (same for the R side of course) is vilified by the other side. Point is, I'm not sure that saying she should go because the Republicans HATE her is a great reason. I guess we should look at how the so-called Independents view her more than anything.

Also remember that a surprising number of the Dems that just won in the mid-terms, ran saying they would not support Pelosi as speaker. Not sure how strong of a mandate that was, but it's probably a factor for many voters wanting new Dem blood.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by LordMortis »

Remus West wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:06 am
Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:28 am I'm not sure what results Schumer can claim, but Pelosi knows how to get shit done, and she makes it happen. She's going up against Mitch McConnell, and this really isn't the time for on-the-job training.

Are there any ways in which she seems seriously out of step with the rest of party? I could be convinced, but are there strong reasons to dump her besides Pelosi fatique?
The strongest is how villanized she has become to Republicans and left-fringe Republicans. People that may vote Dem will vote R just to avoid her much as many did to avoid HRC. We need to realize that those people need to be courted no matter how annoying it is. If Pelosi really wants to help the Dems she would not even run for Speaker but would work tirelessly on behalf of whomever they put front and center.
That's the question. I agree with your assessment (that and I don't like Pelosi irrespective of republican demonetization. They take seeds of truth and go do town with town this. So Pelosi vs Ryan, it's not even a choice but that's not to say I think she's good...) That brings us to an interesting juncture. There is a war to kill and bury the current GOP ideology. Is it better ease things in to better or is it better to take the republican stance of, well then, fuck you (too). I don't know the answer. I prefer the former but the later is what is refusing to let racial injustice topics die and has advanced whatever the current alphabet soup is on sexuality and gender issues.

I don't like Pelosi. And her hubris will magnify the things I don't like as they happen. Maybe it's needed but I'd hope 200+ top elected legislative leaders from across the whole US would have a better answer.

I also will freely admit that it's hard to remember the specifics of what she did as speaker to earn my dislike (unlike the burning recent events of McConnell and Ryan). It wasn't GOP brain washing as I was already washing my hands of accepting any GOP news at face value by the time she was speaker. It's hard to remember specifics about Boehner either.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman »

The first question is whether Pelosi's negative image outweighs how very good she is at her job.

The second question is whether we have a more likeable replacement guaranteed to be at least that good on Day 1 and every day thereafter.

This year we don't have time to play around, especially if it means bogging down in a Dem civil war while Trump gets away with murdering what remains of democracy.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by LordMortis »

Holman wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:06 am This year we don't have time to play around, especially if it means bogging down in a Dem civil war while Trump gets away with murdering what remains of democracy.
Agreed. I just don't know the answer. It's big enough deal that I won't write Pelosi off but I really hope a better answer makes itself apparent and is put in motion in the next 45 days or so. If Pelosi goes up and Democratic infighting happens and republicans run roughshod all over them while concurrently successfully pointing Pelosi as the problem, then we get Trump in 2020 and McConnell senate will be strengthened and the House will be in jeopardy.

As you say. No time to play to around and there can't be Dem civil war bogging down governance. I hope there is someone in there, but fuqed if I know who it would be or how they would map disillusioned conservative democratic voters with progressive democratic policy setting and map midwest blue collar democrats with coastal university democrats with the evolving southern democrats. There is no unity of vision.

My opinion is the attack needs to be remain healthcare, regulation, and infrastructure and how it gets paid for while refusing to ignore race and sexuality injustice. I think that is the pulse of the people. It's pretty big tackle, so you don't need to get bogged down in other stuff. I don't know who the right person is to keep it on task. If it's Pelosi, it's Pelosi. If it's not the hell to pay will be much higher than finding someone from the field.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Carpet_pissr wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:55 am

Also remember that a surprising number of the Dems that just won in the mid-terms, ran saying they would not support Pelosi as speaker. Not sure how strong of a mandate that was, but it's probably a factor for many voters wanting new Dem blood.
I posted about this earlier, but IIRC it was 10 of the 37 candidates that ran on that that won (and 5 were tossups). That by itself wouldn't prevent her from being speaker, but some incumbents will probably vote against her. Last time, 63 Democrats voted against her, and my guess would be that number would be less (given the victory during the election), but I suppose it's possible it could be larger

My guess would be that Pelosi would win the vote within the party. At that point, those 10-15 new representatives could just abstain the vote for speaker, thereby saying they didn't support Pelosi for speaker, but Pelosi would still win (assuming most of those 63 agree to vote for her for speaker when the alternative is a Republican). I do think there's a possibility that Pelosi promises to only serve one term, though.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?
Its never too soon to start thinking about THE PURGE.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant »

Defiant wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:27 pm
Voter suppression is certain to be a priority.
Democrats will take control of the U.S. House in January with big items topping their legislative to-do list: Remove obstacles to voting, close loopholes in government ethics law and reduce the influence of political money.
https://www.npr.org/2018/11/12/66563583 ... cy-at-home
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Good luck with all that. Going to be hard to clean out the GOP virus once its infected the system.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Daehawk wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:57 pm Good luck with all that. Going to be hard to clean out the GOP virus once its infected the system.
It has to happen at the state level and it has been happening. Our future remains to be seen but Michigan is one of the worst Gerrymandered states and is competitively bad for more direct voter suppression methods. Still, no matter how hard the GOP, Chamber of Commerce, the DeVoses, and the state legislature got in the way, the vote somehow go to the voters, and in theory, moving forward Gerrymandering will be mitigated against, registration will be easier, and absentee balloting will be extended beyond the handicapped and military. It's a huge victory against corruption that has been institutionalized at the state level by the GOP and its largest contributing entities and Michigan (and the wonderful people moved this forward to bring the vote to the people) is not alone in these movements.

First thing I could find from July, where it (unintentionally) shows stacking the Supreme Court won't save the GOP saving voter Suppression. People way better than I'll ever be are putting everything in to letting the people decide if the people should decide...

Now if voter suppression is so bad that you can't the people to the polls, then the virus is too great.
Initiative petitions—a citizens’ right in 24 states—have become a key tool against the gerrymander. Redistricting reform may make the November ballot in Michigan, Utah, Colorado and Missouri. In Ohio, it was a petition drive for reform that pressured state legislators to act. Unlike most initiative proposals, which usually propose independent redistricting commissions, Ohio has kept control of mapmaking with lawmakers, at least until they reach an impasse. It also sets new mapmaking rules to thwart gerrymandering’s worst abuses, such as the use of precise software to create more safe districts for incumbents. It’s a model, say conservative and liberal Ohioans, that could break through partisan impasses over gerrymandering in other states.
In a day where all political news is doom and gloom, I am so happy for what I've seen come out of our elections. My rep is going to be an Islamic Woman who earned her way in and two huge initiatives become law have a very real potential to a stake through the heart of voting malfeasance in my state, something that seemed insurmountable as it is 20 years overdue and took the sheer will of dedicated citizens outside of the state or federal capitols.

(I won't let anyone take feeling good about this away from me unless it goes wrong. I need this)
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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LordMortis wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:16 pm (I won't let anyone take feeling good about this away from me unless it goes wrong. I need this)

I'm with you dude, I feel optimistic. Or at least I'm trying to...
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Apollo »

I'm not a Pelosi fan and I think she deserves little credit for taking back the house. In 2006 the Democrats gained the majority only after an incompetent administration started two never-ending wars, tried to end Social Security, and was caught illegally spying on Americans. The Democrat's majority in the house this election is only due to an simple-minded goon with fascist tendencies that can't keep his mouth shut while pursuing a wide variety of unpopular policies.

The last time the Democrats held the majority in the House based on their ideology as opposed to the public rejecting GOP extremism was 1992. The Democrats need to give the public a reason to vote for them again instead of just waiting for the latest GOP train wreck to push them into power.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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I think there are signs that are positive and optimism is a good trait to have.

Being wildly confident that a Blue Wave is going to solve everything is maybe too much optimism. Dems did well, but not a mandate to implement Dem policy or an anti-drumpf mandate well. I don't think there is reason to believe the Dems will sweep in 2020, and you certainly shouldn't expect, or worse, count on it.
Edit: I have since been educated on why my view is not correct.

Keep on keeping on, fighting the good fight, always engage the other side, if for no other reason than to say you did so (although I think getting both sides to talk to each other is the only way to come back from this spiral), do what you can, prepare for and defend against dirty pool, and try to govern with sincerely and responsibly. There are a bunch of sane people in there somewhere, and they are the only hope. Catering to the extremes on either side might win you elections, but it's a sure way to keep America circling the bowl.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:31 pm The Democrats need to give the public a reason to vote for them again instead of just waiting for the latest GOP train wreck to push them into power.
No offense intended, but it is my impression that the latter is exactly why the two parties cycle their turns in power.

Do you think Drumpf won because he's a policy wonk and that resonated with the American public? Was Obama's time in the white house a train wreck? If so, how so? Tell me what wrecked his train.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm completely willing to listen to legitimate criticisms of Democrats, however lines like the above sound good, but have little basis in reality. At least in my limited experience following your politics.

Don't you think the parties switch places on a regular basis simply because whoever is in power gets vilified, rightly or wrongly, so the American people vote for a changing of the guard, regardless of their policies at the time?

So on the one hand I agree with your statement above. On the other, Republicans did as well as they did in these mid-terms based on xenophobia and (potentially) gerrymandering. That's not the American people being influenced by "a reason to vote", unless you equate emotions to reason. And that's ignoring the fact that some huge percentage of the American public vote for their party regardless of the current issues of the day. When you say give the public a reason to vote, you really mean give the few independents that actually matter a reason to vote. And that's cool, but then you are doing targeted campaigning, and that has little to do with America as a whole, whether that's California, or Georgia.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Apollo »

Yes, the Democrats need to push policies that will win over independent voters for certain, but there's also a chance to win back white, working class Republican voters who have been abandoning the Democratic party since Reagan. I have seen almost all of my relatives, many of whom would be considered white, working class, rural voters, switch allegiances from the Democrats to the GOP during that time, with Obama driving the last few over to the Dark Side. While that has less to do with Obama's policies than with GOP scare tactics, the fact is the GOP is slowly but surely cementing their hold on the reigns of power in this country.

The Democratic party needs to seriously re-examine their tactics and strategy when it comes to winning elections, or the GOP, through stacking the courts, voter suppression and widespread propaganda, will OWN this nation (In Birmingham, for one small example, the FM and AM radio dials are literally filled with political talk shows, every one of which represent the GOP's new extremist Trump philosophy). The Democrats need to come up with whatever solutions or policies they think will be effective, but what they DON'T need to do is double down on the "same old same old", which hasn't worked since the 1970's. And they need to do it soon or it will be too late!... :(
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by hepcat »

Dems need to position themselves as what the Republican party used to say it was.

We live in weird times.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Apollo »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:45 pm Again, don't get me wrong, I'm completely willing to listen to legitimate criticisms of Democrats, however lines like the above sound good, but have little basis in reality. At least in my limited experience following your politics.
You are not an American and obviously have little idea of what the GOP is doing on a local level in Red States to win elections, which makes statements like the one above downright insulting. Please stop replying to my posts if you have nothing more to add than unhelpful comments like the one above.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by noxiousdog »

I don't think Pelosi has a bad reputation outside of Fox News viewers. Going on nothing but gut feel, I have a positive opinion of her.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo »

Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:12 pm While that has less to do with Obama's policies than with GOP scare tactics, the fact is the GOP is slowly but surely cementing their hold on the reigns of power in this country.
I won't argue that, as that is certainly what appears to be happening!

I can't speak to white working class or rural voters, so I'll take your word that they have been abandoning the party for years now. This implies that they were ever in the party to begin with, but again, I have no idea so I simply accept your point here.
Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:12 pm The Democratic party needs to seriously re-examine their tactics and strategy when it comes to winning elections, or the GOP, through stacking the courts, voter suppression and widespread propaganda, will OWN this nation (In Birmingham, for one small example, the FM and AM radio dials are literally filled with political talk shows, every one of which represent the GOP's new extremist Trump philosophy). The Democrats need to come up with whatever solutions or policies they think will be effective, but what they DON'T need to do is double down on the "same old same old", which hasn't worked since the 1970's. And they need to do it soon or it will be too late!... :(
A couple of things First, this reminds me of a point I wanted to address that's not necessarily related to what you've said here. Many of the criticisms of the Democratic party is a lack of coherency regarding who the Democrats are. You could phrase it as identity crisis, perhaps. And the corollary is that the GOP is awesome at messaging and working as a cohesive, single entity, and that somehow this is an enviable trait.

I can't agree with that. Becoming a monolithic single issue (as long as it's the right issue) party might win you elections, but it's a terrible way to govern. We have seen many times, including these past 2 years where Rep members were not free to vote their conscience, or for what's best for their constituents. Vote party line or consequences.

If the sole goal of gaining power is retaining power, then sure, the GOP is great. I like that democrats are diversified. I like that Dems in California have certain priorities, and that Dems in NY have different ones. That's how things are. That's how the world is. The idea that you can get the nation or even half the nation to support a single platform is contrary to reality but more importantly contrary to good governance. Sure, the GOP seem to have done it, but they've done it through lies, propaganda, dirty pool and other less enviable behaviour.

So again, on one hand, I agree that winning is important. You can't govern if you're not in a position to govern. But winning isn't the end goal. Winning is the first step to the actual job. As we see with drumpf, who believes winning was the point and everything else is unnecessary and inconvenient, or with the GOP, who have mainly worked to undo democratic progress, and enrich themselves and their sponsors, while doing everything they can to consolidate and retain power. That's not governance. That's pillaging the country.

Lose sight of what's important and join the GOP in their corrupt pursuit of more power at the country's peril.

Lastly, the fact that your radio is literally filled with GOP philosophy is not the result of the GOP party, or politicians in general. That's private business that has found a way to make money by talking GOP bullet points. That's giving the market what it wants, not the other way around. They aren't governmental mouth pieces, they are private mouth pieces. They may be funded with GOP sponsor funds, but what would you have the Dems do? Start their own propaganda stations in a war of the air waves? In a market that seems to be so strongly supportive of GOP philosophy that it can support multiple radio stations. Fox News is not an arm of the GOP party, even though it behaves as such. That's an untapped market that they captured. I'm ignoring that a lot of media companies are owned by single individuals and are often pushing stories that the single individual supports.

I don't mean to keep poking at your viewpoint, as I want you to be right. I'm just testing it for strength or weaknesses, and I'm not finding substantive strengths. Others are free to find (and probably do) differently.

As I said, I want you to be right. I'm just struggling to see how the practicalities would work.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo »

Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:23 pm You are not an American and obviously have little idea of what the GOP is doing on a local level in Red States to win elections, which makes statements like the one above downright insulting. Please stop replying to my posts if you have nothing more to add than unhelpful comments like the one above.
No.

And I'm sorry you feel that way. Show me I'm wrong or don't engage me and just keep saying stuff that sounds good with zero behind it. Do whatever you want. I won't tell you what to do, so feel free to reciprocate.

I guarantee you I am more informed about American politics than at least 1/2 of the American population, so there's that. Nationality isn't knowledge.

For the record your response is Rip's response when he ran out of things to say, too.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Apollo »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:33 pm I don't think Pelosi has a bad reputation outside of Fox News viewers. Going on nothing but gut feel, I have a positive opinion of her.
I don't hate her by any means but, like HRC, she's been in the spotlight too long and has had too much mud slung at her to be the face of the party, IMHO. And as a wealthy, elderly woman from the most liberal part of the country, she has little appeal to the independent voters that the Democrats need to be winning over.

What the Democrats need is a scrappy, outspoken, ex-military vet from a purple or red state who is willing to go toe-to-toe with Trump whenever he spews his hateful garbage. The Democrats need to stop focusing their message solely on liberals and make more of an attempt to grow the party by making moderates, independents, etc. want to join the party the way Reagan made white working class voters want to be Republicans, regardless of his policies. Most of the avid Trump supporters I know have very little idea of what Trump's policies are, they just like his style. Oh, if only we had a Democrat who, by force of personality, could grab independent and working class voters and bring them into the party.

The Democrats have plenty of policy wonks, right now what they need is more salesmen, IMHO...
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Apollo »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:43 pm ...I can't speak to white working class or rural voters, so I'll take your word that they have been abandoning the party for years now. This implies that they were ever in the party to begin with, but again, I have no idea so I simply accept your point here...
Since you compared me to Rip, I'll point out that arguing about things one doesn't really understand is taking a page out of his playbook.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo »

Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:51 pm Most of the avid Trump supporters I know have very little idea of what Trump's policies are, they just like his style. Oh, if only we had a Democrat who, by force of personality, could grab independent and working class voters and bring them into the party.

The Democrats have plenty of policy wonks, right now what they need is more salesmen, IMHO...
First, I agree, which is not me trying to make peace, it's my honest opinion. With that said, Drumpf had a lifetime of self promotion and branding to fall upon. No politician, ever, has had that level of public visibility and propaganda in support of their personality.

In my lifetime and ignoring Drumpf, I would say Reagan had the most appeal of the nature you're discussing, and possibly Clinton a distant second. Neither Bush had anything like the charisma of either of those two, yet they both managed to win.

It would be amazing if such a powerful personality presented itself and took the helm of the Democrats. Honest question for everyone, not just Apollo, is who do you think might fill that role? Or is it someone yet to be discovered on the national stage? If we can't name him today, he's (or she's) got her work cut out for her if she's going to inspire and draw republicans to the democratic party.

As Apollo points out, I am not American and I do not understand who are up and coming politicians on the local stage. Or potentially national. Who has a chance of being the rallying point for the Democrats in the near (or distant) future?
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo »

Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:54 pm
Since you compared me to Rip, I'll point out that arguing about things one doesn't really understand is taking a page out of his playbook.
Sure.

You have yet to show that you understand what you're talking about either. Saying the Dems need to draw in more voters is not exactly insightful.

How do you foresee this happening? Completely honest question. You mentioned cult of personality. Ok, that would be good, for sure. Charisma is powerful. Is there someone you had in mind? You mentioned dropping old platforms for new. Which ones are you referring to, in either case?

You post and I, in my own quirky way, ask you for details. You give none, instead deciding that I'm not worth talking to because you feel I (inadvertently) insulted you. I apologize. That I have that view is from years of watching. If it's not accurate it's not accurate. Come on guy, talk. If not to me, then to the forum in general.

I recently heard a political ad where the politician "promised to help Canadians keep more of their paycheque". He didn't say how. He didn't even say the words "cut taxes". It was literally an ad that said nothing. Less than nothing. That's not good enough.

So if I ask you for details, it's not because I'm attacking you. I'm testing your ideas. Defend them. Or not. It's up to you, obviously, but not backing up your words is kinda lame. I make all sorts of assertions that I get called on. Sometimes I defend them. Sometimes I stubbornly hold onto ideas that I shouldn't. Sometimes I learn from my interlocutors that my ideas weren't as awesome as I thought they were. Sometimes I am unswayed by the forum and continue to hold my opinion. And even more rarely, sometimes people start to agree with me.

It's not personal. I know it feels like it is because I'm singling you out. But it's your words I'm discussing. Not you as a person. I might fail to communicate that correctly. I sometimes put my foot in my mouth. It happens. Oh well.

As someone (a democrat?) in a Red state with experience with those in a red state, I value your opinion and insight. Share it with us. As Rip claims, this board is often an echo chamber, but not for the reasons he says. Rip has not once (at least not in years. A decade?) given us an honest opinion or defended one. He doesn't count. MSD is pretty far into the coolaid. YK would engage us on occasion, but drumpf has pushed him pretty far into the dark side (welcome aboard!). It's very hard to get a reasoned conservative viewpoint here, and maybe that's our fault. Still, you seem to be the closest we have right now and I value that. I didn't mean to scare you off or make you close up.

This is a (sincere!) attempt at reconciliation. Do with it what you will.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Apollo »

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:00 pm
Apollo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:51 pm Most of the avid Trump supporters I know have very little idea of what Trump's policies are, they just like his style. Oh, if only we had a Democrat who, by force of personality, could grab independent and working class voters and bring them into the party.

The Democrats have plenty of policy wonks, right now what they need is more salesmen, IMHO...
First, I agree, which is not me trying to make peace, it's my honest opinion. With that said, Drumpf had a lifetime of self promotion and branding to fall upon. No politician, ever, has had that level of public visibility and propaganda in support of their personality....
Well, let me say that I have absolutely nothing against you, GreenGoo. After all, I think we'd probably agree on 90% of the topics discussed here in the R&P forum. I just find it a bit frustrating when I, a Red State liberal, am trying to convey to my Blue State brethren that we can't just double down on appealing to party activists and liberals, and you keep laying down those Walls of Text obfuscating the simple points I am trying to make. For one, there simply aren't enough liberals and Democratic party activists to reliably win elections on a regular basis! We need to expand our appeal to bring in more independents, moderates, etc. etc. and start trying to tailor or message to that effect.

And, yes, this is a Peace offering because I've spent too much time here today and need to get some work done! :P

In summary, the party needs to adopt a more populist tone and start actively trying to win over independents, moderates, and white working class voters. It can be done! But not unless the party makes some changes by focusing more on issues that resonate with ALL voters (not just liberals...Focusing on healthcare in the last election was a good step in the right direction) and recruiting some new, more dynamic leaders who can expand the party's appeal.

OK, that's all, I'm outta here! :mrgreen:
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo »

I can certainly admit I talk too much. Some days I even try not to do, unsuccessfully.

Take care.

Peace!
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by noxiousdog »

I think the Democratic Party needs to stop allowing themselves to be perceived as extreme.

Embrace the idea that 60% of the people want gun safety and make it clear you are NOT going to take guns away.
Embrace the idea that there should be limits on abortion (3rd trimester abortions for non medical reasons), and the best way to prevent abortions is not by making them illegal, but by birth control and education.
Embrace the idea that you can be against illegal immigration and not be a racist.

Show that the Republicans have created a 1 trillion dollar deficit and our current economy is based on Obama's policies and Trump is destroying them with his trade wars (and other nonsense).
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman »

hepcat wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:23 pm Dems need to position themselves as what the Republican party used to say it was.

We live in weird times.
Those voters no longer exist. Fox News killed them.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by El Guapo »

noxiousdog wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:55 pm I think the Democratic Party needs to stop allowing themselves to be perceived as extreme.

Embrace the idea that 60% of the people want gun safety and make it clear you are NOT going to take guns away.
Embrace the idea that there should be limits on abortion (3rd trimester abortions for non medical reasons), and the best way to prevent abortions is not by making them illegal, but by birth control and education.
Embrace the idea that you can be against illegal immigration and not be a racist.

Show that the Republicans have created a 1 trillion dollar deficit and our current economy is based on Obama's policies and Trump is destroying them with his trade wars (and other nonsense).
Sooo...they need to abolish Fox News, basically? Democrats can and do argue all of those things.

They can't really control their ability to be perceived as extreme, for the most part, especially since conservative media (and to some degree, mainstream media as well) have incentives to play up the lunatics in the Democratic base.
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Daehawk »

GOP says DEMS are all socialists and that socialist things like nationwide free healthcare and free college educations are bad things.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo »

I think Nox is saying that these people exist irrespective of the conservative viewpoint being spewed from media outlets around the country. He's saying that despite what the NRA and Fox News says, 60% of the population want some form of gun control. They are out there. Assume they are and act as if they are, because they are.

He's saying that many people think abortion is icky, but also understand that it is a necessary part of health care. Make sure those people know that you're not pro-abortion, and this is where Fox News comes in like you said, despite messaging to the contrary. No one but extremists are pro-abortion. We've seen this suggested when Rip is on one of his conservative talking point kicks. Somehow pro-choice is pro-abortion. No one *likes* abortion, but it is necessary. And it is the woman's right to choose, not society's in any case. Governmental control over what people do with their bodies should be abhorrent to libertarians or libertarian leaning conservatives, no matter their views on abortion itself.

I can agree that being concerned about immigration does not make one racist. The problem is that the main messengers ARE racist. The reasons they give are thinly veiled racism. The support they garner is directly from the racist dog whistle. Nox, you can't look at the messaging from the GOP for these recent elections and not identify the clear racism inherent in it. It's just not possible. So I get that reasonable people can want something done about illegal immigration (it is illegal after all), but they are almost certainly afraid of being lumped in with the racists, and indignant when they are lumped in. That's not a problem democrats can solve, in my opinion. The GOP bullhorn is just too loud shouting racism at the top of their lungs. Obama *did* do a bunch of work on immigration. No one seems to care. It was news to me in fact.

The last one is a toughie. It's human nature to see immediate consequences and equate them to immediate actions. It's actually quite difficult to understand how the economy works, even moreso how policy affects it, and how many years ago the actions were started that created the results they are seeing today. I get that people need to understand how things work, but it seems to me that humans are short term thinkers. Creating solutions that take generations to implement is not in our DNA, I don't think. Understanding the abstract nature of how the economy works and the time periods over which it changes, is not a simple task for many people, including many bright people. I'm not saying it can't be done, but man, that's a big bite to chew.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by noxiousdog »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:48 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:55 pm I think the Democratic Party needs to stop allowing themselves to be perceived as extreme.

Embrace the idea that 60% of the people want gun safety and make it clear you are NOT going to take guns away.
Embrace the idea that there should be limits on abortion (3rd trimester abortions for non medical reasons), and the best way to prevent abortions is not by making them illegal, but by birth control and education.
Embrace the idea that you can be against illegal immigration and not be a racist.

Show that the Republicans have created a 1 trillion dollar deficit and our current economy is based on Obama's policies and Trump is destroying them with his trade wars (and other nonsense).
Sooo...they need to abolish Fox News, basically? Democrats can and do argue all of those things.

They can't really control their ability to be perceived as extreme, for the most part, especially since conservative media (and to some degree, mainstream media as well) have incentives to play up the lunatics in the Democratic base.
You're wrong.

Official platform - "We will continue to oppose—and seek to overturn—federal and state laws and policies that impede a woman’s access to abortion, including by repealing the Hyde Amendment."
"keep weapons of war—such as assault weapons and large capacity ammunition magazines (LCAM’s)—off our streets."

And while racism isn't a platform plank, even here where the moderates live, racism is thrown around at the mere mention of slowing immigration.

Edit: That's also lazy. They are politicians. If they can't even brand themselves, why should anyone listen to them about anything else?
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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