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All Things Saudi

For discussion of religion and politics

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Max Peck
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Max Peck » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:47 pm

Trudeau doesn't eternally campaign on the idea that he is the only person strong enough to save the country.

But by all means, let's be civil and not mock Trump unfairly.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by gbasden » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:24 pm

Given that he's about the only world leader that wants to give MBS a blanket pardon for his actions, he should be forced to listen to the torture and death multiple times. He is incapable of feeling empathy, but at least he would get some minor discomfort and it's probably good for what shriveled part of his soul still exists.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:00 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:47 pm
Trudeau doesn't eternally campaign on the idea that he is the only person strong enough to save the country.

But by all means, let's be civil and not mock Trump unfairly.
It's like you only read the parts that let you be an ass.

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Max Peck
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Max Peck » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:57 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:00 pm
Max Peck wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:47 pm
Trudeau doesn't eternally campaign on the idea that he is the only person strong enough to save the country.

But by all means, let's be civil and not mock Trump unfairly.
It's like you only read the parts that let you be an ass.
#Triggered
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:26 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:57 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:00 pm
Max Peck wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:47 pm
Trudeau doesn't eternally campaign on the idea that he is the only person strong enough to save the country.

But by all means, let's be civil and not mock Trump unfairly.
It's like you only read the parts that let you be an ass.
#Triggered
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Captain Caveman
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Captain Caveman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:45 pm



It has to be read to be believed. It's insane.

Click above to see the rest of it, including this gem: "Our intelligence agencies continue to assess all information, but it could very well be that the Crown Prince had knowledge of this tragic event – maybe he did and maybe he didn’t!"

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:05 pm

Don't forget - Saudi Arabia says he was an enemy of the state and a member of the Muslim Brotherhood! That may not be true, and it definitely didn't affect my decision, but I wanted to just throw that out there.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:13 pm

I thought that had to be satire.
We had subs. It was crazy

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Octavious
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Octavious » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:23 pm

F this timeline. It just gets worse and worse and worse and worse.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Captain Caveman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:25 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:05 pm
Don't forget - Saudi Arabia says he was an enemy of the state and a member of the Muslim Brotherhood! That may not be true, and it definitely didn't affect my decision, but I wanted to just throw that out there.
It's a good thing Trump has never declared a journalist to be the enemy of the people. Otherwise I might be worried from this statement that he thinks it's okay to kill them.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by $iljanus » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:55 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:

It has to be read to be believed. It's insane.

Click above to see the rest of it, including this gem: "Our intelligence agencies continue to assess all information, but it could very well be that the Crown Prince had knowledge of this tragic event – maybe he did and maybe he didn’t!"
He certainly isn't shy about the use of the exclamation point!

It reads like something out of 5th grade or middle school sprinkled with factoids taken from various talking points.
tl;dr

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:38 pm

tl;dr:

" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "

"Also, we don't care too much about murdered journos when buddies who hate our baddies do it."
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by El Guapo » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:25 pm

And you know he's feeling very proud of himself about this statement.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by malchior » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:57 pm

WTF? That is beyond self parody. So his approach is basically, "I'll talk about some 'positive' stuff before I get to the part where I sort of say they did a bad thing. However, obviously it isn't a big deal because of all this other stuff somehow balances it out". Wtf. Is our government mentally ill or evil? Probably both but you can't tell anymore.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:58 pm

Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Alefroth » Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:10 pm

I'd like to see how he answered the 'Her Emails' question.

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Max Peck
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Max Peck » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:54 pm

Meanwhile, back in Saudi Arabia, we're just looking at a little light locker room torture.

Saudi Arabia 'tortured female activists', charities say
Saudi Arabia tortured and sexually harassed human rights activists, including several women, human rights groups have alleged.

Prisoners in the kingdom's Dhahban Prison have allegedly been electrocuted and flogged.

Saudi Arabia arrested several women's rights activists earlier this year and influential clerics and intellectuals have also been detained.

The BBC has approached the Saudi authorities for comment.

Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch issued statements on Tuesday detailing alleged torture of detained prisoners.

Activists were left unable to walk or stand properly after electrocution and flogging, an Amnesty International release said, with one women reportedly sexually harassed by interrogators in face masks.

Human Rights Watch's release also speaks of electrocution, as well as whipping and "forcible hugging and kissing" of at least three detained women.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Smoove_B » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:54 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:25 pm
And you know he's feeling very proud of himself about this statement.
He might need some cream for this burn though:


Iranian FM Zarif lashes out at President Trump’s comments about Iran in his statement declaring solidarity with Saudis, calling it “shameful,” and asking, “Perhaps we’re also responsible for the California fires, because we didn’t help rake the forests— just like the Finns do?”

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:06 pm

Ah. I see the president has raised the bar on international diplomacy.

I eagerly await the "I know you are but what am I" missive.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Remus West » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:11 am

I knew he had made us the laughing stock of the world the moment he got elected. I just always figured it would be kept behind closed doors. Now we are being openly mocked for stupidity by Iran. Lovely. So much winning.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by LordMortis » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:28 am

Remus West wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:11 am
I knew he had made us the laughing stock of the world the moment he got elected. I just always figured it would be kept behind closed doors. Now we are being openly mocked for stupidity by Iran. Lovely. So much winning.
I was thinking about this very thing from that same bit. I mentally settled on the idea that the US and its leadership has always been openly mocked by by the leadership in countries like Iran but the difference is so striking now because they don't have to stretch the truth and much of citizenry openly agrees with the mocking.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:53 pm

To clarify, Iran is being equally childish.

The difference being that western leadership used to be above this sort of thing, even if the dictators, autocracies, oligarchies and theocracies weren't.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:17 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:53 pm
To clarify, Iran is being equally childish.

The difference being that western leadership used to be above this sort of thing, even if the dictators, autocracies, oligarchies and theocracies weren't.
Reagan did this all the time, and the world loved him for it.

Generally, though, free societies offload the task onto pundits and other media figures. Iran is working with the handicap of having jailed or silenced all their Colberts.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:54 pm

A search for "Reagan childish insults" did not return anything relevant on the first page.

I'm open to hearing how Reagan did this all the time. Can someone point me to some examples?

Another search for "Reagan insults world leaders" resulted in this
In the United States, there aren’t that many examples of egregious public insults of foreign officials, although Ronald Reagan did call Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi “the mad dog of the Middle East.”
Which is hardly childish, nor unwarranted. There are times when name calling is completely appropriate. Calling Putin a thug, for example.

Free societies don't "offload it to pundits". Leaders of free societies wouldn't suddenly start throwing around childish insults if pundits magically started keeping their mouths shut on the matter. Similarly, Iran and Saudi have plenty of state run media to do their insulting for them (and they do, witness Saudi attacks on Canada recently), yet they choose to do it themselves anyway.

I refute your premise on multiple grounds.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:40 pm

Reagan loved to pepper his speeches with jokes about the Soviet Union. Here's a five-minute video of examples that came up immediately.

To Western ears, these were good-natured humor (well, maybe not this one), but I imagine the Soviet leaders thought they were childish.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:33 pm

Holman wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:40 pm
Reagan loved to pepper his speeches with jokes about the Soviet Union. Here's a five-minute video of examples that came up immediately.
If you knew what you were looking for perhaps. As pointed out, 2 searches resulted in zero hits.

Thanks for the followup.

For the record I think the bombing in 5 minutes joke is hilarious and certainly not childish. If he called Gorbachev a poopyhead he might be discussed in the same breath as drumpf, but even then I'd assume he was being intentionally childish for a point, but petulantly childish while unaware he was being so.

edit: Watched a little of video, and if you think childish is simply a joke at someone's expense, then we have different views of childish. Particularly when what was being discussed was childish and mean spirited insults. There's nothing funny or even intended to be funny about what drumpf says or Iran's response.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Holman » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:27 pm

Greengoo, Reagan's use of jokes is well known, as is the fact that "The bombing starts in five minutes" inflamed tensions at a stressful Cold War moment. The latter actually put Soviet forces on global alert, and there is probably no better example of attempted humor putting human lives at risk.
GreenGoo wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:33 pm
edit: Watched a little of video, and if you think childish is simply a joke at someone's expense, then we have different views of childish. Particularly when what was being discussed was childish and mean spirited insults. There's nothing funny or even intended to be funny about what drumpf says or Iran's response.
You're the one who made "childishness" the criteria. If calling Trump out for comparing California's disaster response to completely imaginary Finnish forest-management practices is childish, what isn't?

The nature of humor is that it as always contextual. As it happens, Finnish government official have made the same joke as the Iranians. Should they be condemned too?
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:30 pm

Holman wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:27 pm
You're the one who made "childishness" the criteria. If calling Trump out for comparing California's disaster response to completely imaginary Finnish forest-management practices is childish, what isn't?

The nature of humor is that it as always contextual. As it happens, Finnish government official have made the same joke as the Iranians. Should they be condemned too?
It's true. I did. As evidenced by this:
GreenGoo wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:53 pm
To clarify, Iran is being equally childish.
In fact that was the entire premise for my criticism. You've attempted to equate Reagan's off the record accidental open mic joke with Drumpf's public attack tweets.

Drumpf and Iran are busy criticizing and mocking each other in the most childish way possible. If you think the Finnish government is participating equally and in the same context, then by all means include them. Do you?

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Chaz » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:16 pm

Trump now saying that he regrets the killing, but MBS regrets it even more, and actually, the world is to blame.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:36 pm

I can't believe he let Acosta off the hook, as he's who's clearly to blame.

Drumpf has an amazing ability to forgive and turn the other cheek.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by malchior » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:12 pm

Oy vey.



As an aside a few reporters have suddenly dropped their gloves lately. CBS's Paula Reid also real-time fact checked Trump about one of his statements to his face today. He predictably just walked away. Guess the Acosta affair got their dander up a little.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:52 pm

WaPo
Senators emerged from a closed-door briefing with the CIA director on Tuesday and accused the Saudi crown prince of complicity in the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

In some of their strongest accusations to date, lawmakers said evidence presented by the U.S. spy agency overwhelmingly pointed to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s involvement in the assassination.

Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) said while there was no smoking gun, there was a “smoking saw,” referring to the bone saw that investigators have said was used to dismember Khashoggi after he was killed by a team of agents from Saudi Arabia in that country’s consulate in Istanbul in October.

Graham made clear that business as usual with the Saudis had come to end, and said the United States should come down on the government in Riyadh like “a ton of bricks,” adding that he could no longer support arms sales to the Saudis as long as Mohammed was in charge.
...
Senators put themselves in direct opposition to the White House, making clear that the evidence they heard had convinced them beyond the shadow of a doubt.

“If the Crown Prince went in front of a jury, he would be convicted in 30 minutes,” said Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.), the chairman of the Committee on Foreign Relations.
Let's see how long the outrage lasts. :coffee:
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by hepcat » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:58 pm

If they're still outraged on Friday I'll be surprised.
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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by malchior » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:03 pm

Exactly - Friday is a stretch. I'll also note that this is a feisty Graham. I wonder if Trump told him he wasn't getting the AG nod after all.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Alefroth » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:52 pm

In which Graham admits what a hypocritical partisan he is. Starts at :39

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_yROrhwPTY

I still don't understand why this is where the GOP decides to stand up to Trump.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:10 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:52 pm
I still don't understand why this is where the GOP decides to stand up to Trump.
Murder is a pretty fundamental wrong, and it's more tangible than most they are familiar with.

Maybe?

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Sepiche » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:39 pm

I think a lot of the outrage on display after that meeting was more to do with the ham handed way the administration tried to keep the senate from getting briefed by the CIA.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by pr0ner » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:27 pm

Hodor.

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by Unagi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:15 pm

missing Mitch. :roll:

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Re: All Things Saudi

Post by LordMortis » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:03 am

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:52 pm
I still don't understand why this is where the GOP decides to stand up to Trump.
Negotiating tactic? Trump may be the deplorable pied piper (who hates rats oddly enough) but his interests are not the interests of the GOP. They're using each other. I'm sure the GOP would love nothing more than to have the thralls turn on the sorcerer and look like champions for taking down "one of their own" because he was dirty.

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