Political Randomness

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Pyperkub
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

How many red states now have laws making criticism/boycotting of Israel illegal now? How do we think those laws were drafted/proposed/passed?
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by GreenGoo »

Zero, presumably. How would those laws survive a court challenge? I vaguely remember Texas trying to put something on the books, something something teacher something something, but I don't recall the details.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant »

Pyperkub wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:21 am How many red states now have laws making criticism/boycotting of Israel illegal now?
From my understanding, this isn't a fair description of the laws at all. The laws requires state contractors to affirm that the business (not individuals) is not participating in a boycott of Israel.

Individuals that want to boycott Israel can.

Businesses that want to boycott Israel can, so long as they don't want a contract with the state.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Combustible Lemur »

GreenGoo wrote:Zero, presumably. How would those laws survive a court challenge? I vaguely remember Texas trying to put something on the books, something something teacher something something, but I don't recall the details.
It's on the books and unsuccessfully being contested atm.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Kurth »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:08 pm I'm going to start a political consultancy business called, "Stay the Fuck Off Twitter." My my simple, single-point advice will be a proprietary trade secret.
Well, there goes that idea. Should have consulted an IP attorney first! :D
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by GreenGoo »

Combustible Lemur wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:44 am
GreenGoo wrote:Zero, presumably. How would those laws survive a court challenge? I vaguely remember Texas trying to put something on the books, something something teacher something something, but I don't recall the details.
It's on the books and unsuccessfully being contested atm.

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There has to be more to it than you stated. How on earth would a "you can't criticize X" law survive in the US? Presumably this has something to do with an official capacity as a government employee in some way? Anything else would seem inherently unconstitutional, and any punishment handed down to an employee commenting as a private citizen would also result in a lawsuit finding Texas liable for violating the citizen's rights, unlike being fired by a private employer for an employee's comments on social media for example.

Call me when it gets to the SCOTUS and is not struck down. Of course if I'm misunderstanding the law as you've characterized it, please elaborate.


Defiant explained it, I just missed it.

I'm still curious how a US government (state or otherwise) can prevent a business from bidding and winning a contract based on who they *don't* do business with. Are some countries a protected group now? Shrug.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Defiant wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:43 am Businesses that want to boycott Israel can, so long as they don't want a contract with the state.
That's arguably (and quite likely, IMO) a First Amendment violation. Especially in a world where the SCOTUS has determined that corporations are people for purposes of First Amendment rights, putting a business at a disadvantage for expressing a political opinion (and participating in a boycott in this case is clearly expressing a political opinion) has the effect of restricting protected speech.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by GreenGoo »

ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:03 am
Defiant wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:43 am Businesses that want to boycott Israel can, so long as they don't want a contract with the state.
That's arguably (and quite likely, IMO) a First Amendment violation. Especially in a world where the SCOTUS has determined that corporations are people for purposes of First Amendment rights, putting a business at a disadvantage for expressing a political opinion (and participating in a boycott in this case is clearly expressing a political opinion) has the effect of restricting protected speech.
+1.

Pyper is suggesting that the courts aren't being sympathetic to this argument, which I find perplexing.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Kurth »

LordMortis wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:14 pm
Elected officials should also refrain from labeling all criticism of Israeli actions or policies as “anti-Semitic,” in a transparent effort to silence legitimate discussion and debate. Such attacks only undermine the vital effort to counter the actual scourge of anti-Semitism in the United States and around the world.
That's where I sit. I won't defend Omar if there is really a history of antisemitism but I see the daggers directed at her held by pretty weak bearers.

She doesn't have to be full on Alt Right to be teh jooz control the world" and "manipulate people with money" but I'm not seeing it from that a couple tweets. Also is "anti-Semitic canards" a thing. I've never heard it before but it is the twittersphere response beginning with Rubio in January as far as I can tell in response to her position on "the BDS movement". Something I also did not know as a thing until today.
“anti-Semitic canards” is very much a thing. Has been for a long, long, long time.

Also, “the BDS movement” is also a thing, and has been for at least a couple decades (a blink of an eye in comparison to the thing noted directly above). The BDS Movement is generally supported by those who equate Israel with apartheid South Africa. It’s an objectively laughable comparison, which leads many to believe that those advocating for BDS are anti-Semites.

Israel isn’t perfect by any means, and there are serious issues and problems with the way Israel has dealt with the Palestinians, but the country is no South Africa, and it’s human rights issues do not deserve in any objective evaluation to be singled out in the world for the kind of treatment the BDS Movement wants to target it with.

I other news, glad Pelosi issued the reprimand. Glad Omar apologized. Time to move on and continue the discourse - including discourse of Israeli policy, pro and con - just without the vague suggestions that Jewish money is what’s driving everything. We’ve seen that story unfold before, and it doesn’t end well.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant »

ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:03 am
Defiant wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:43 am Businesses that want to boycott Israel can, so long as they don't want a contract with the state.
That's arguably (and quite likely, IMO) a First Amendment violation. Especially in a world where the SCOTUS has determined that corporations are people for purposes of First Amendment rights, putting a business at a disadvantage for expressing a political opinion (and participating in a boycott in this case is clearly expressing a political opinion) has the effect of restricting protected speech.
What about executive orders under Clinton and Obama banning federal contractors from discriminating against LGBT employees? (various states have had this as well, IIRC). Why is that not a first Amendment violation while the above is? (or any other such executive orders or laws that put different standards on state/federal contractors?)

(And heck, if corporations are people, why can't government be? If so, why can't it boycott the boycotters?)
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by ImLawBoy »

Defiant wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:30 am
ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:03 am
Defiant wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:43 am Businesses that want to boycott Israel can, so long as they don't want a contract with the state.
That's arguably (and quite likely, IMO) a First Amendment violation. Especially in a world where the SCOTUS has determined that corporations are people for purposes of First Amendment rights, putting a business at a disadvantage for expressing a political opinion (and participating in a boycott in this case is clearly expressing a political opinion) has the effect of restricting protected speech.
What about executive orders under Clinton and Obama banning federal contractors from discriminating against LGBT employees? (various states have had this as well, IIRC). Why is that not a first Amendment violation while the above is? (or any other such executive orders or laws that put different standards on state/federal contractors?)
In that case you'd be dealing with a balancing act of Constitutional rights. Legislatures and the courts have been moving toward sexual orientation being a protected class, and the courts have consistently ruled that you cannot discriminate against a protected class under the guise of 1A law (although we're still determining the boundaries of this, such as with private businesses refusing to service gay weddings). Israel does not have such a luxury of being a protected class.
Defiant wrote:(And heck, if corporations are people, why can't government be? If so, why can't it boycott the boycotters?)
That's certainly a novel legal theory, and you're welcome to give it a try. ;)
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by GreenGoo »

Defiant wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:30 am (And heck, if corporations are people, why can't government be? If so, why can't it boycott the boycotters?)
Er...because it is my understanding that most of your constitution and bill of rights is in place to specifically prevent the government from doing those sorts of things. Freedom of Speech is really just "Freedom from government interference of speech". Providing contracts for businesses who's speech the government agrees with and withholding contracts for businesses who's speech the government does not agree with is practically a textbook example of 1st amendment violation, I think.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant »

The business simply can't engage in action that the state disapproves of. Supreme Court precedent, mostly to my chagrin, seems rather clear that this is constitutional, and that the protected class in question need not be an individual or minority group--in Rumsfeld v. FAIR, the Court held that the law school plaintiffs had no First Amendment right to boycott military recruiters in the face of a federal statute barring recipients of federal funds from discriminating against those recruiters.
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Re: Political Randomness

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That reads to me that educational institutions at least partially funded by federal money aren't permitted to suppress the speech of others, in this case military recruiters. Presumably they could discriminate if they gave up their federal funding, but even then it's not clear.

You would think conscription would be unconstitutional, but it isn't apparently. I suspect that protecting the military's access to the youth of America is related to the conscription laws in some way.

In any case, preventing federally funded institutions from suppressing speech has been a thing for a long time.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LordMortis »

Kurth wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:09 am canards
Really? It's not a word I ever hear or see in writing. Or wasn't until I started looking for Omar's antisemitic offenses.
Also, “the BDS movement” is also a thing, and has been for at least a couple decades (a blink of an eye in comparison to the thing noted directly above). The BDS Movement is generally supported by those who equate Israel with apartheid South Africa. It’s an objectively laughable comparison, which leads many to believe that those advocating for BDS are anti-Semites.
That was not cynicism on my part. I did not know the BDS was a thing until the spark posted by Izzy.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant »

Kurth wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:09 am Also, “the BDS movement” is also a thing, and has been for at least a couple decades (a blink of an eye in comparison to the thing noted directly above). The BDS Movement is generally supported by those who equate Israel with apartheid South Africa. It’s an objectively laughable comparison, which leads many to believe that those advocating for BDS are anti-Semites.
It also hasn't helped that:
1. Some of it's leaders and vocal supporters don't recognize Israel's right to exist.
2. There are examples where it can hurt Palestinians as much or more than Israel (One company with a factory in the West Bank that employed hundreds of Palestinians moved it's factory and no longer employs them because of the move)

Which is why even some vocal critics of Israel and strong supporters of Palestinians are against BDS.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:03 am
Defiant wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:43 am Businesses that want to boycott Israel can, so long as they don't want a contract with the state.
That's arguably (and quite likely, IMO) a First Amendment violation. Especially in a world where the SCOTUS has determined that corporations are people for purposes of First Amendment rights, putting a business at a disadvantage for expressing a political opinion (and participating in a boycott in this case is clearly expressing a political opinion) has the effect of restricting protected speech.
There are also significant variations in proposed anti-BDS laws. There was one that was proposed in Massachusetts (don't know if it passed) that would just make contractors sign a pledge to not discrimination on the basis of race, religion, or "national origin". So you couldn't refuse to do business with a company or individual just because they were from Israel (or Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, etc.), although you could refuse to do business with them because of business practices particular to them. Which seemed pretty reasonable.

Some of the more out-there anti-BDS bills raise very serious first amendment issues (and so, for example, the ADL generally doesn't support most of them).
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

Pyperkub wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:21 am How many red states now have laws making criticism/boycotting of Israel illegal now? How do we think those laws were drafted/proposed/passed?
These laws were probably passed because significant polling majorities support Israel, *especially* in red states. Evangelicals love them some Israel.

That's also part of the issue with Omar's comments. Blaming McCarthy's position on the Israel Lobby, when Occam's razor is that pro-Israel stances are hugely popular in his district and in the Republican base.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Kurth »

LordMortis wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:41 am
Kurth wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:09 am canards
Really? It's not a word I ever hear or see in writing. Or wasn't until I started looking for Omar's antisemitic offenses.
Also, “the BDS movement” is also a thing, and has been for at least a couple decades (a blink of an eye in comparison to the thing noted directly above). The BDS Movement is generally supported by those who equate Israel with apartheid South Africa. It’s an objectively laughable comparison, which leads many to believe that those advocating for BDS are anti-Semites.
That was not cynicism on my part. I did not know the BDS was a thing until the spark posted by Izzy.
Understood, and not taken as such. But I was surprised you hadn’t heard of BDS before. Guess it just goes to show how easy it is to lose perspective. We all live in our own bubbles, and sometimes we forget that and assume the shit we encounter and consider on a regular basis is shared by all. Good reminder here that that’s not the case, and we shouldn’t make such assumptions.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

Kurth wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:21 am
LordMortis wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:41 am
Kurth wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:09 am canards
Really? It's not a word I ever hear or see in writing. Or wasn't until I started looking for Omar's antisemitic offenses.
Also, “the BDS movement” is also a thing, and has been for at least a couple decades (a blink of an eye in comparison to the thing noted directly above). The BDS Movement is generally supported by those who equate Israel with apartheid South Africa. It’s an objectively laughable comparison, which leads many to believe that those advocating for BDS are anti-Semites.
That was not cynicism on my part. I did not know the BDS was a thing until the spark posted by Izzy.
Understood, and not taken as such. But I was surprised you hadn’t heard of BDS before. Guess it just goes to show how easy it is to lose perspective. We all live in our own bubbles, and sometimes we forget that and assume the shit we encounter and consider on a regular basis is shared by all. Good reminder here that that’s not the case, and we shouldn’t make such assumptions.
Side note related to that. My daughter and her friend are big into dolphins, and have also lately taken to creating Google Classrooms on stuff that they're interested in and e-mailing them out to family and friends. Since they're both into dolphins, they created a Google Classroom called the Boston Dolphin School. As a result, my wife and I (and others) have all gotten e-mails with subject lines like "New BDS Class", "Sign Up to Participate in BDS", etc.

It's funny, but it's also kind of triggering my wife, who is *very* pro-Israel.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

El Guapo wrote:
Pyperkub wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:21 am How many red states now have laws making criticism/boycotting of Israel illegal now? How do we think those laws were drafted/proposed/passed?
These laws were probably passed because significant polling majorities support Israel, *especially* in red states. Evangelicals love them some Israel.

That's also part of the issue with Omar's comments. Blaming McCarthy's position on the Israel Lobby, when Occam's razor is that pro-Israel stances are hugely popular in his district and in the Republican base.
They love them some Netanyahu Israel, because they went all in on anti-obama and the peace process.

Again, how do we think these laws were drafted and proposed and passed? As stated above, there are pretty clear 1st amendment principles involved.

AIPAC lobbyists, perhaps?
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

Pyperkub wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:26 am
El Guapo wrote:
Pyperkub wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:21 am How many red states now have laws making criticism/boycotting of Israel illegal now? How do we think those laws were drafted/proposed/passed?
These laws were probably passed because significant polling majorities support Israel, *especially* in red states. Evangelicals love them some Israel.

That's also part of the issue with Omar's comments. Blaming McCarthy's position on the Israel Lobby, when Occam's razor is that pro-Israel stances are hugely popular in his district and in the Republican base.
They love them some Netanyahu Israel, because they went all in on anti-obama and the peace process.

Again, how do we think these laws were drafted and proposed and passed? As stated above, there are pretty clear 1st amendment principles involved.

AIPAC lobbyists, perhaps?
Evangelicals are often more Likud than Likud. But I'm not sure why that distinction matters - the point is that red states in particular tend to be very pro-Israel, which has some clear correlation to their representatives and legislatures adopting pro-Israel measures.

I don't know how those particular laws got passed (or even which ones have actually been passed and enacted). I wouldn't be shocked if AIPAC lobbyists had some role in at least some of them (though I'm skeptical that AIPAC is sending many lobbyists to the Montana or North Dakota state legislatures). The point is that McCarthy isn't supporting this stuff because of Jewish money.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Defiant »

As stated above, there are pretty clear 1st amendment principles involved.
... if you consider corporations to be people, which I didn't think those on the left did. :wink:
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Re: Political Randomness

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How can you be pro Israel and anti-semitic? Cognitive dissonance!
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Re: Political Randomness

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I do think you can be against an Israeli political action or stance without being anti-semitic. I even think it's dangerous to try to equate any protest against the nation's policies with hating the Jewish race. It takes away any chance of honest dialog.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Jaymann wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:46 am How can you be pro Israel and anti-semitic? Cognitive dissonance!
Oh, that's entirely possible, and indeed Trump's base rests right on that pro-Israel / less pro-Jews line. At least part of the religious reason why evangelicals are so pro-Israel is that God promised the land of Israel to the Jewish people in the Old Testament, and because it's widely believed that the return of the Jews to Israel is a pre-condition to the second coming of Jesus. Plus they're not super crazy about Muslims at the moment.

None of those correlate to respecting Jews as a distinct minority group.
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Re: Political Randomness

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hepcat wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:50 am I do think you can be against an Israeli political action or stance without being anti-semitic. I even think it's dangerous to try to equate any protest against the nation's policies with hating the Jewish race. It takes away any chance of honest dialog.
No one's really disputing that idea. It's more the application in practice that becomes more complicated.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by hepcat »

Rip would dispute it. We had that discussion on more than one occasion around these here parts.

But he's busy these days with his Twitch channel: Rip's Burlesque and Tax Advice Show
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Re: Political Randomness

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El Guapo wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:54 am
Jaymann wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:46 am How can you be pro Israel and anti-semitic? Cognitive dissonance!
Oh, that's entirely possible, and indeed Trump's base rests right on that pro-Israel / less pro-Jews line. At least part of the religious reason why evangelicals are so pro-Israel is that God promised the land of Israel to the Jewish people in the Old Testament, and because it's widely believed that the return of the Jews to Israel is a pre-condition to the second coming of Jesus. Plus they're not super crazy about Muslims at the moment.

None of those correlate to respecting Jews as a distinct minority group.
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Re: Political Randomness

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hepcat wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:15 pm Rip would dispute it. We had that discussion on more than one occasion around these here parts.

But he's busy these days with his Twitch channel: Rip's Burlesque and Tax Advice Show
I mean, Rip would dispute a lot of things.
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Re: Political Randomness

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El Guapo wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:54 am
Jaymann wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:46 am How can you be pro Israel and anti-semitic? Cognitive dissonance!
Oh, that's entirely possible, and indeed Trump's base rests right on that pro-Israel / less pro-Jews line. At least part of the religious reason why evangelicals are so pro-Israel is that God promised the land of Israel to the Jewish people in the Old Testament, and because it's widely believed that the return of the Jews to Israel is a pre-condition to the second coming of Jesus. Plus they're not super crazy about Muslims at the moment.

None of those correlate to respecting Jews as a distinct minority group.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by pr0ner »

Holman wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:44 pm I've not delved deep into the Omar story, but any discussion involving AIPAC must acknowledge that it isn't simply a pro-Israel lobby but a specifically pro-Netanyahu and pro-Likud lobby.

Analogously, think of them less as "the state of Israel" and more as "the NRA."
I saw a "sob story" on Twitter about AIPAC and Victoria Wulsin, who ran for Congress as a Democrat in Ohio twice. Apparently $5,000 was all it took for her to issue statements on things AIPAC wanted her to say. For $5000 out of over $1 million she raised in that race.

Of course, Omar commented on that story.

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

Jaymann wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:27 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:54 am
Jaymann wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:46 am How can you be pro Israel and anti-semitic? Cognitive dissonance!
Oh, that's entirely possible, and indeed Trump's base rests right on that pro-Israel / less pro-Jews line. At least part of the religious reason why evangelicals are so pro-Israel is that God promised the land of Israel to the Jewish people in the Old Testament, and because it's widely believed that the return of the Jews to Israel is a pre-condition to the second coming of Jesus. Plus they're not super crazy about Muslims at the moment.

None of those correlate to respecting Jews as a distinct minority group.
So, I love your country, I just hate on the people who live there.
Hate isn't the right word exactly. The issue is more that Jews haven't accepted the Word of the Lord on account of denying Jesus, which is a bit of a sticky issue. But in the meantime, the Jews are a vehicle for God's will by playing their role in the re-establishment of Israel, allowing for Jesus's second coming (during which the Jews will presumably / hopefully accept Jesus).
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

pr0ner wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:31 pm
Holman wrote: Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:44 pm I've not delved deep into the Omar story, but any discussion involving AIPAC must acknowledge that it isn't simply a pro-Israel lobby but a specifically pro-Netanyahu and pro-Likud lobby.

Analogously, think of them less as "the state of Israel" and more as "the NRA."
I saw a "sob story" on Twitter about AIPAC and Victoria Wulsin, who ran for Congress as a Democrat in Ohio twice. Apparently $5,000 was all it took for her to issue statements on things AIPAC wanted her to say. For $5000 out of over $1 million she raised in that race.

Of course, Omar commented on that story.

Victoria Wulsin lived across the street from me (from my parents house) growing up. She seemed nice.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Jaymann »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:33 pm
Jaymann wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:27 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:54 am
Jaymann wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:46 am How can you be pro Israel and anti-semitic? Cognitive dissonance!
Oh, that's entirely possible, and indeed Trump's base rests right on that pro-Israel / less pro-Jews line. At least part of the religious reason why evangelicals are so pro-Israel is that God promised the land of Israel to the Jewish people in the Old Testament, and because it's widely believed that the return of the Jews to Israel is a pre-condition to the second coming of Jesus. Plus they're not super crazy about Muslims at the moment.

None of those correlate to respecting Jews as a distinct minority group.
So, I love your country, I just hate on the people who live there.
Hate isn't the right word exactly. The issue is more that Jews haven't accepted the Word of the Lord on account of denying Jesus, which is a bit of a sticky issue. But in the meantime, the Jews are a vehicle for God's will by playing their role in the re-establishment of Israel, allowing for Jesus's second coming (during which the Jews will presumably / hopefully accept Jesus).
So they rejected him the first time, but this time for sure!
Jaymann
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The Meal
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Re: Political Randomness

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This thread is 232 pages of things that should be in their own threads.
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Re: Political Randomness

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The Meal wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:55 pm This thread is 232 pages of things that should be in their own threads.
I'll give you 193.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Political Randomness

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The Meal wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:55 pm This thread is 232 pages of things that should be in their own threads.
To be fair, it is a "randomness" thread.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LawBeefaroni »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:59 pm
The Meal wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:55 pm This thread is 232 pages of things that should be in their own threads.
To be fair, it is a "randomness" thread.
That's the problem with "randomness" and catch-all threads.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:39 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:59 pm
The Meal wrote: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:55 pm This thread is 232 pages of things that should be in their own threads.
To be fair, it is a "randomness" thread.
That's the problem with "randomness" and catch-all threads.
I think of this thread as being a kind of AAA R&P. If a topic shows enough promise, it gets drafted up to the big leagues and gets its own thread.
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