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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:50 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:48 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:17 pm
Even if miraculously, a deal is made, what happens come April 1st? Have any preparations been made to start enforcing it?
This is another side of this mess. The deal is a transition period only; only a portion of the laws needed have been worked through Parliament. This is an extreme mess right now and the British people have a lot of reason to be anxious. The business community is practically jumping out of its skin at the moment. Big businesses can eat the losses and won't be greatly affected but small businesses are pretty much at risk at the moment. On top, you have to imagine that credit freezes up pretty hard if the situation goes south which will only squeeze harder on the whole thing. They are risking a financial bomb going off in a systemically important financial center. That said the risk is probably low but that these clowns have gotten anywhere near here in this shape is pathetic. Failures at this scale are undermining Democracy broadly right at a time when we need it the most. :cry:
What makes you say that the risk is low? Seems pretty high to me.


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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:59 am

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:50 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:48 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:17 pm
Even if miraculously, a deal is made, what happens come April 1st? Have any preparations been made to start enforcing it?
This is another side of this mess. The deal is a transition period only; only a portion of the laws needed have been worked through Parliament. This is an extreme mess right now and the British people have a lot of reason to be anxious. The business community is practically jumping out of its skin at the moment. Big businesses can eat the losses and won't be greatly affected but small businesses are pretty much at risk at the moment. On top, you have to imagine that credit freezes up pretty hard if the situation goes south which will only squeeze harder on the whole thing. They are risking a financial bomb going off in a systemically important financial center. That said the risk is probably low but that these clowns have gotten anywhere near here in this shape is pathetic. Failures at this scale are undermining Democracy broadly right at a time when we need it the most. :cry:
What makes you say that the risk is low? Seems pretty high to me.
The risk I'm thinking of is say 2008 level trouble. My personal semi-inside knowledge knows that institutions in the City are preparing for the worst and I think they will be prioritized by the Government over say trucking at the border. That is more what I meant. In effect, the chance a financial bomb goes off that has a cascading event on the world economy is probably low but still these fools are risking it. I think that is driving some of the angst we are seeing from EU ministers at this point. They can't come out and say that they are risking markets. However, I'm pretty sure there are leaders across the EU that are worrying about the UK exporting pure chaos on a higher scale than they already are.

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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:50 am

malchior wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:59 am
El Guapo wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:50 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:48 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:17 pm
Even if miraculously, a deal is made, what happens come April 1st? Have any preparations been made to start enforcing it?
This is another side of this mess. The deal is a transition period only; only a portion of the laws needed have been worked through Parliament. This is an extreme mess right now and the British people have a lot of reason to be anxious. The business community is practically jumping out of its skin at the moment. Big businesses can eat the losses and won't be greatly affected but small businesses are pretty much at risk at the moment. On top, you have to imagine that credit freezes up pretty hard if the situation goes south which will only squeeze harder on the whole thing. They are risking a financial bomb going off in a systemically important financial center. That said the risk is probably low but that these clowns have gotten anywhere near here in this shape is pathetic. Failures at this scale are undermining Democracy broadly right at a time when we need it the most. :cry:
What makes you say that the risk is low? Seems pretty high to me.
The risk I'm thinking of is say 2008 level trouble. My personal semi-inside knowledge knows that institutions in the City are preparing for the worst and I think they will be prioritized by the Government over say trucking at the border. That is more what I meant. In effect, the chance a financial bomb goes off that has a cascading event on the world economy is probably low but still these fools are risking it. I think that is driving some of the angst we are seeing from EU ministers at this point. They can't come out and say that they are risking markets. However, I'm pretty sure there are leaders across the EU that are worrying about the UK exporting pure chaos on a higher scale than they already are.
Ok, that makes sense. Intuitively I would put the global economy risk at low to medium, and the risk to the UK economy as medium to high, though those aren't particularly informed views.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:40 am

NY Times
European Union leaders on Thursday agreed to extend the deadline for Britain’s looming exit from the bloc in order to give Prime Minister Theresa May and the British Parliament more time to get their act together.

Thursday’s agreement effectively averted the possibility of a disorderly and possibly chaotic departure by Britain on March 29. Yet that still remains a possibility just a few weeks later.

After hours of difficult and sometimes passionate talks, the leaders decided that Britain’s exit date will be pushed back to May 22 if next week Mrs. May can persuade lawmakers in Parliament to accept her plan for leaving the bloc, which they have already rejected overwhelmingly, not once but twice.

If she cannot persuade lawmakers to accept her plan, Mrs. May will get a shorter delay in exiting the European Union — until April 12. But Britain could stay in the bloc longer if it decides it needs more time for a more fundamental rethink of Brexit, as the process is known.

For a longer extension, though, it would have to take part in elections to the European Parliament in May — something Mrs. May said early Friday would be an absurdity, three years after Britons voted in a referendum to leave the bloc.

Speaking at a news conference after the extended deadlines were announced, Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, said that until April 12, “all options will remain open and the cliff-edge date will be delayed.”
tl;dr version - "No Deal" postponed until 12-April. If they pass her deal, the UK gets a bump up to 22-May. In the unlikely possibility they do something substantial then they can get more time. That is pretty much impossible because May is delusional. The EU didn't even deal with her last night. They stuck her in the antechamber and delivered the decision to her like a courier. Sad!

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:40 am

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:00 pm

WaPo
[Theresa May] bowed to pressure from her Conservative Party and said she will resign before the next phase of Brexit talks. She is seeking to win majority backing for her twice-rejected Brexit withdrawal deal, and her political future was the price demanded by hardline Brexit supporters.

“I have heard very clearly the mood of the parliamentary party. I know there is a desire for a new approach, and new leadership, in the second phase of the Brexit negotiations, and I won’t stand in the way of that,” she told Conservative lawmakers, according to excerpts released by Downing Street.

“I am prepared to leave this job earlier than I intended in order to do what is right for our country and our party,” she said.

Critics were quick to note that May didn’t offer a specific exit date.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:19 pm

That's got to be a relief for her.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:05 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:19 pm
That's got to be a relief for her.
She took the job knowing she was responsible for making Brexit happen. I'm sure it's a relief to be able to step down, but wtf was she thinking in the first place? That she would be an English hero? Complete an utter failure, the only fault of which is trying in the first place. Pretty lame legacy.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jaymann » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:36 pm

Hey at least they won't have the screwy EU internet restrictions. I hope.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Grifman » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:39 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:05 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:19 pm
That's got to be a relief for her.
She took the job knowing she was responsible for making Brexit happen. I'm sure it's a relief to be able to step down, but wtf was she thinking in the first place? That she would be an English hero? Complete an utter failure, the only fault of which is trying in the first place. Pretty lame legacy.
Maybe she was trying to do the best she could for her country given the lousy deck of cards she was dealt. BREXIT was decided, all she could do was try to do it with the least possible negative impact on the country. She didn't have a choice as to whether to try or not - hardly fair to damn her for that.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Brexit

Post by NickAragua » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:56 pm

Grifman wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:39 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:05 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:19 pm
That's got to be a relief for her.
She took the job knowing she was responsible for making Brexit happen. I'm sure it's a relief to be able to step down, but wtf was she thinking in the first place? That she would be an English hero? Complete an utter failure, the only fault of which is trying in the first place. Pretty lame legacy.
Maybe she was trying to do the best she could for her country given the lousy deck of cards she was dealt. BREXIT was decided, all she could do was try to do it with the least possible negative impact on the country. She didn't have a choice as to whether to try or not - hardly fair to damn her for that.
Maybe it was a shell game - screw up the process so bad that public opinion turns against Brexit and creates an opening to claim it was all an april fools prank.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Holman » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 pm

Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:23 pm

Grifman wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:39 pm
Maybe she was trying to do the best she could for her country given the lousy deck of cards she was dealt. BREXIT was decided, all she could do was try to do it with the least possible negative impact on the country. She didn't have a choice as to whether to try or not - hardly fair to damn her for that.
Maybe she was trying her best to get her country to the moon with 5 pounds a day and spent all her time building sand castles and when that failed, built sand castles.

Of course criticism is fair. She chose the job with zero ideas on how make it happen and then failed miserably.

What is history going to say? Good try? This isn't a PTA pet project, this is the fate of her nation, and her entire tenure has been one collosal waste of time.

Here's your participation ribbon, May. Bye.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:49 pm

Holman wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 pm
I'd say unbelievable but this whole mess is beyond sad. It is no wonder that Democracy is "dying".

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:59 pm

It should never have been put to a vote in the first place.

May says she will resign *if* her latest plan passes. Basically "you want me gone? Vote yes and I'll go"

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Re: Brexit

Post by Grifman » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:04 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:23 pm
Grifman wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:39 pm
Maybe she was trying to do the best she could for her country given the lousy deck of cards she was dealt. BREXIT was decided, all she could do was try to do it with the least possible negative impact on the country. She didn't have a choice as to whether to try or not - hardly fair to damn her for that.
Maybe she was trying her best to get her country to the moon with 5 pounds a day and spent all her time building sand castles and when that failed, built sand castles.

Of course criticism is fair.
Strawman, I did not say all criticism wasn't fair. I think criticizing her for trying is unfair. Failure to gain agreement on implementation is fair game.
She chose the job with zero ideas on how make it happen and then failed miserably.
Half false. I think it's obvious she had an idea on how to make it happen. I agree she failed miserably but the first part of the criticism isn't correct. Just because the plan failed doesn't mean she didn't have a plan.
What is history going to say? Good try? This isn't a PTA pet project, this is the fate of her nation, and her entire tenure has been one collosal waste of time.

Here's your participation ribbon, May. Bye.
I agree that she failed but that wasn't your only criticism. You criticized her for even trying which I do think is unfair.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:28 pm

Sigh.

It was an IMPOSSIBLE task. She knew this going in. In fact a number of people before her said "no fucking thanks" because they weren't morons. She volunteered for it. She never came close to succeeding. Whatever her motivations, she was doomed to fail and everyone including her knew she was doomed to fail. Then she failed. Has she accomplished ANYTHING in her attempt? Is the country more unified? Better off? Has progress been made in any area as pertains to Brexit?

I'd call her a moron but I'll leave room for naivety and/or misguided altruism (which I think is your position).

Your position is one of a parent who likes when their child tries. She tried. She sucked. She failed. The end. That she sucked was not her fault because no one could not suck. That she thought she might not suck is her fault. When the boss gives a team an impossible task the smart, competent people become scarce. The overly ambitious stupid people volunteer. Which is exactly what happened when May took the helm. They are not worthy of praise. Especially when they fail so spectacularly, and everyone knew ahead of time that failure was inevitable. This is not a case of there is merit and honor in trying despite the odds. This is taking a job that was designed from the start to fail. This isn't "give it the ol' college try". This is complete nonsense, the entire thing.

Volunteering gives the perception that it can be done. It couldn't. They spent years pretending. That's a separate problem.

edit: To be clear, "it" in this case is a successful Brexit where economic hardship is minimized. As I found out a few months back, the government could simply ignore the referendum results, instead of this farce. That was the only real option, and could have saved years of this nonsense. Especially since in the end that's what's going to happen anyway, in all probability. It seems unlikely that parliament is going to vote against England's best interests, barring corruption of some sort. Perhaps Russia will get involved.

edit: Also for clarity, I felt this way when she took the leadership, at that time. This isn't hindsight, this is me exasperated all over again. Because you know why? Everyone, including a barely paying attention Canadian across the pond knew that this was an impossible task when she took it on.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:45 am

May's deal fails again by 58 votes this 3rd time even with her promise of resignation. The trend is clearly towards passing so why not a 4th and 5th time? But seriously the next few weeks should prove chaotic. Even by standards of this Parliament.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:34 pm

malchior wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:45 am
May's deal fails again by 58 votes this 3rd time even with her promise of resignation. The trend is clearly towards passing so why not a 4th and 5th time? But seriously the next few weeks should prove chaotic. Even by standards of this Parliament.
May is delusional and has no plan.
Government sources suggested she was first likely to make another attempt to force her deal through parliament in a third “meaningful vote”. This might happen in a “run-off” against any successful alternative from Monday’s indicative votes.

The government has been discussing with the Speaker, John Bercow, whether there is a way to hold MV3 that would not fall foul of his insistence that the same proposition cannot be put before parliament again.

A Downing Street spokesman highlighted the fact that May’s margin of defeat, 58, was smaller than the 149 majority she lost by earlier this month, and the crushing 230-strong defeat in the first meaningful vote in January. “We are at least going in the right direction,” the spokesman said.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Defiant » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:09 pm

Maybe they should just remove Parliament from the UK.

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Re: Brexit

Post by em2nought » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:31 pm

It was easier to defeat Nazi Germany than it is to Brexit. :doh:
Waiting for the tide to bring me a sail.

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Re: Brexit

Post by gbasden » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:01 pm

That's because everyone could agree that defeating Hitler wasn't batshit insane.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Holman » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:21 pm

em2nought wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:31 pm
It was easier to defeat Nazi Germany than it is to Brexit. :doh:
Yeah, the Russians have really fallen off their game.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:27 pm

:clap:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:14 pm

WaPo
British lawmakers, who have earned a global reputation for voting “no” on everything Brexit, failed again to muster a majority on Monday for any of four possible ways forward.

They rejected two proposals for a soft Brexit. They also declined to back a second referendum or cancel Brexit.

The votes were all non-binding, and several were close. The slimmest was for a soft Brexit involving a new customs union with the European Union, which failed by 3 — 276 to 273. The proposal to require a public vote before any Brexit deal could be ratified failed by 12 — 292 to 280. Meanwhile, a proposal for a Norway-like relationship failed by 21 — 282 to 261. The fourth motion, seeking to effectively cancel Brexit, lost by 101.
...
If Parliament now does not back May’s deal, it means that Britain will need to either seek a long delay for Brexit or crash out with no deal at all. Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator, tweeted after the votes: “A hard #Brexit becomes nearly inevitable.... the U.K. has a last chance to break the deadlock or face the abyss.”

Britain now has 9 days to tell European leaders how it wants to proceed. If not, the U.K. will exit with no deal.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Zarathud » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:27 am

The UK has no plan. This is going to end badly, and the US will likely add to the economic chaos if it closes the Mexico border.
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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:35 am

The UK is trapped by its broken system and the Europeans have conflicting priorities too. They don't want to be seen as responsible for the turmoil so I think they're safe there at this point. Parliament has hacked off their own foot well enough now. The EU also wants to show the remaining 27 nations that leaving isn't easy and won't improve their lot.

In the end, best guess is they are going hard brexit at this point. The EU won't likely give them a long delay considering they have 3 years and can't agree on anything in the face of the abyss. Might as well let them go off the cliff since they'll just be back here some indeterminate time down the road. France in particular wants to move on since they have to deal with their internal problems and Brexit has been a distraction for far too long.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:32 am

What part of the UK system is broken?

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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:59 am

malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:35 am
The UK is trapped by its broken system and the Europeans have conflicting priorities too. They don't want to be seen as responsible for the turmoil so I think they're safe there at this point. Parliament has hacked off their own foot well enough now. The EU also wants to show the remaining 27 nations that leaving isn't easy and won't improve their lot.

In the end, best guess is they are going hard brexit at this point. The EU won't likely give them a long delay considering they have 3 years and can't agree on anything in the face of the abyss. Might as well let them go off the cliff since they'll just be back here some indeterminate time down the road. France in particular wants to move on since they have to deal with their internal problems and Brexit has been a distraction for far too long.
Yeah, I would say that there's like a 60%ish chance of a hard Brexit at this point. The close vote on the customs union makes me think that that might actually have a outside shot (~30%) at being the endgame, since intuitively I would think that three MPs could be persuaded that a customs union is better than a hard Brexit.

And then 10% chance of wacky hijinks of one type or another.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:06 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:32 am
What part of the UK system is broken?
Do we really need to wonder about what part other than it is completely broken at this point? You can guess at different mechanisms such as botched parliamentary reforms, first past the post voting, etc. However, I don't know if figuring out what combination or single piece of their system is at fault is all that useful. They are in full meltdown. No matter whatever happens they will be wrestling with systemic issues for quite some time.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:11 am

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:59 am
malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:35 am
The UK is trapped by its broken system and the Europeans have conflicting priorities too. They don't want to be seen as responsible for the turmoil so I think they're safe there at this point. Parliament has hacked off their own foot well enough now. The EU also wants to show the remaining 27 nations that leaving isn't easy and won't improve their lot.

In the end, best guess is they are going hard brexit at this point. The EU won't likely give them a long delay considering they have 3 years and can't agree on anything in the face of the abyss. Might as well let them go off the cliff since they'll just be back here some indeterminate time down the road. France in particular wants to move on since they have to deal with their internal problems and Brexit has been a distraction for far too long.
Yeah, I would say that there's like a 60%ish chance of a hard Brexit at this point. The close vote on the customs union makes me think that that might actually have a outside shot (~30%) at being the endgame, since intuitively I would think that three MPs could be persuaded that a customs union is better than a hard Brexit.

And then 10% chance of wacky hijinks of one type or another.
I'm with you. Their problem is that Macron and others with effective veto power are trying to figure out why they are even voting on this stuff. The only things on the table from the EU point of view is hard brexit, May's deal, or calling it off. I guess you can argue they vote for Custom's Union, the EU somehow gives them credit for that, and gives them an extension. However, there is probably deep skepticism of that happening even if they somehow got that sort of vote over the line.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:03 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:06 am
Do we really need to wonder about what part other than it is completely broken at this point?
Yes, we really need to do so. What specifically is broken with their parliamentary system? First past the post is not broken, it's working as intended. If you don't like it, that's fine, lots of people don't, but you not liking something doesn't mean it's "broken".

That their country is about to do something incredibly stupid is not the system's fault. That's ridiculous. What democratic system do you have in mind for preventing a population from losing their collective shit and flushing it all down the toilet?

Is the American system completely broken? If so, what system isn't "completely broken"? If not, why not? The only reason that the US isn't being flushed down the toilet more rapidly is that it's economy isn't completely tied to a single entity like the UK's is. But the current administration is up to the challenge, sabotaging the US economically on multiple fronts at once.

So yes, you do need to defend your statement.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:06 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:03 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:06 am
Do we really need to wonder about what part other than it is completely broken at this point?
Yes, we really need to do so. What specifically is broken with their parliamentary system? First past the post is not broken, it's working as intended. If you don't like it, that's fine, lots of people don't, but that's hardly "broken".
Cool. I don't know what your after here but if this isn't a broken process/system then no process/system can ever be broken.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:20 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:06 pm
Cool. I don't know what your after here but if this isn't a broken process/system then no process/system can ever be broken.
Sure. Great. Informative.

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Re: Brexit

Post by stessier » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:23 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:06 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:03 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:06 am
Do we really need to wonder about what part other than it is completely broken at this point?
Yes, we really need to do so. What specifically is broken with their parliamentary system? First past the post is not broken, it's working as intended. If you don't like it, that's fine, lots of people don't, but that's hardly "broken".
Cool. I don't know what your after here but if this isn't a broken process/system then no process/system can ever be broken.
How about something more than "i don't like the outcome the process produces, thus it is broken." That is what all your arguments boil down to.
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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:31 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:11 am
El Guapo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:59 am
malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:35 am
The UK is trapped by its broken system and the Europeans have conflicting priorities too. They don't want to be seen as responsible for the turmoil so I think they're safe there at this point. Parliament has hacked off their own foot well enough now. The EU also wants to show the remaining 27 nations that leaving isn't easy and won't improve their lot.

In the end, best guess is they are going hard brexit at this point. The EU won't likely give them a long delay considering they have 3 years and can't agree on anything in the face of the abyss. Might as well let them go off the cliff since they'll just be back here some indeterminate time down the road. France in particular wants to move on since they have to deal with their internal problems and Brexit has been a distraction for far too long.
Yeah, I would say that there's like a 60%ish chance of a hard Brexit at this point. The close vote on the customs union makes me think that that might actually have a outside shot (~30%) at being the endgame, since intuitively I would think that three MPs could be persuaded that a customs union is better than a hard Brexit.

And then 10% chance of wacky hijinks of one type or another.
I'm with you. Their problem is that Macron and others with effective veto power are trying to figure out why they are even voting on this stuff. The only things on the table from the EU point of view is hard brexit, May's deal, or calling it off. I guess you can argue they vote for Custom's Union, the EU somehow gives them credit for that, and gives them an extension. However, there is probably deep skepticism of that happening even if they somehow got that sort of vote over the line.
Oh. Yeah, that seems like a big problem, if the EU wouldn't give a semi-automatic OK to a customs union. Seems possible that we could wind up with a hard Brexit then further negotiations that produce a customs union.

malchior
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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:33 pm

stessier wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:23 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:06 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:03 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:06 am
Do we really need to wonder about what part other than it is completely broken at this point?
Yes, we really need to do so. What specifically is broken with their parliamentary system? First past the post is not broken, it's working as intended. If you don't like it, that's fine, lots of people don't, but that's hardly "broken".
Cool. I don't know what your after here but if this isn't a broken process/system then no process/system can ever be broken.
How about something more than "i don't like the outcome the process produces, thus it is broken." That is what all your arguments boil down to.
Wow. This is slightly more than not liking the outcome of a process. It is observing that the outcome is completely bonkers. It is widely regarded as a complete shambles.

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stessier
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Re: Brexit

Post by stessier » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:43 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:33 pm
stessier wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:23 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:06 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:03 pm
malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:06 am
Do we really need to wonder about what part other than it is completely broken at this point?
Yes, we really need to do so. What specifically is broken with their parliamentary system? First past the post is not broken, it's working as intended. If you don't like it, that's fine, lots of people don't, but that's hardly "broken".
Cool. I don't know what your after here but if this isn't a broken process/system then no process/system can ever be broken.
How about something more than "i don't like the outcome the process produces, thus it is broken." That is what all your arguments boil down to.
Wow. This is slightly more than not liking the outcome of a process. It is observing that the outcome is completely bonkers. It is widely regarded as a complete shambles.
[Reagan]See, there you go again.[/Reagan] The outcome does not mean the process that generated that outcome is broken.

The process was asking people to vote on what they wanted. They did. You got the will of the people. Now some of the people were incredibly uniformed if not outright duped, so the inputs to the process should be looked at.

The process was the the PM was supposed to negotiate a Brexit. A deal was crafted. It was rejected by the relevant ruling body. The outcome is absolutely going to be terrible, but it's not the process that is broken. It's the politics and everything tugging on the process that lead to the outcome.

The rule of law is still working as well (or lacking as the case may be) as it always has. That is the process and the basis. When that stops working - when someone uses more than words to influence elections - then it's time to start worrying.

Edit: By your definition, had the vote for Brexit broken for No Brexit, the process would be all well and good.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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malchior
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:58 pm

This is why people hate Paladins. :)

If your argument is about rule of law...well sure it was 100% within the rule of law. We can also argue what the highest, best purpose of a government is but that sort of misses the point. This whole thing could very well end up with the dissolution of their nation but it was all "lawful" so everything is all good? I suppose you could chalk this up to a basic philosophical difference but there are real people who might die here, whose lives will be markedly worse, etc. I don't think arguing that their process is broken is too out of line.

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