The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Blackhawk wrote:Just keep it peoples' minds. After 2020 he's a civilian.
*2024.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Kurth »

Holman wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:50 pm The question now is whether to impeach or wait for 2020 to let the people decide.

I say impeach. Bring everything into the light. Show the evidence. Demand answers.

It's likely that the House will impeach and the Senate will not. That's the political reality, but we're beyond politics in this; we're into the life and function of the Republic. The role of Congress in this is to judge the president's actions and then let the people assess their handling of it. The Founders fucked up a lot, but they saw the wisdom in this at least.
I'm wholeheartedly against this.

Politically, I think a doomed attempt to impeach just helps Trump in 2020. Not to be a broken record, but there's nothing really substantive in the Mueller report that's new. We've all watched Trump be Trump in plain site. If there wasn't enough momentum to impeach before the Mueller report, today's release changes nothing. I don't see how impeachment proceedings move the needle. Trump's base will stand by him no matter what (maybe even more if he's under attack), and I don't trust that the Democrats will be able to resist overplaying their hand and alienating independents and moderates.

And at a higher level, I think impeachment is about the worst thing that could happen to this country. Barring some smoking gun coming to light that he committed a serious crime in connection with Russian interference in the 2016 election, Trump needs to be voted out of office in 2020. His BS must be rejected at the polls, not through something that will be seen by nearly half the country as an anti-democratic coup.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by soulbringer »

Zaxxon wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:33 am
Blackhawk wrote:Just keep it peoples' minds. After 2020 he's a civilian.
*2024.
This.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by hepcat »

The best we can hope for, and work towards, is ousting him in 2020. Impeachment simply won’t work because he uses every instance of such things as fuel for his narrative that everyone is against him, and by extension that means every Republican too. Unlike the adults we’ve had running the country previously, Trump will sink to any level possible in order to make himself look successful and loved. Even if that means burning down the entire goddamn country. The entire Trump klan has proven over the years that they’re subhuman trash without any moral center whatsoever.

But I also fear it’s too late and that his staying until 2024 is becoming inevitable. :(
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:34 amAnd at a higher level, I think impeachment is about the worst thing that could happen to this country. Barring some smoking gun coming to light that he committed a serious crime in connection with Russian interference in the 2016 election, Trump needs to be voted out of office in 2020. His BS must be rejected at the polls, not through something that will be seen by nearly half the country as an anti-democratic coup.
The problem being if he does lose, his base will see it as an anti-democratic coup anyway. And if he wins, it'll almost certainly be due to the EC and a minority share of the vote again. There is no bright light ahead, at least not in 2020. There are probably a few scenarios that are "good". One example would be a huge repudiation of the Trump *AND* the GOP. Maybe that happens but it feels unlikely.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by YellowKing »

I still can't find any math where he gets re-elected. There were a LOT of things that had to go his way for him to barely get elected last time. How does he overcome not having those, and add votes to counter-act what will probably be record Democratic turnout? Where are those votes coming from?

I know it's fun to throw up your hands and say we'll never get rid of him, but let's look at reality.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

I agree about the math; it is pretty unlikely he wins. However, we will have to worry about it because of the EC. That said, assuming he loses I have to think that a groundswell for indicting Trump for his crimes in office will appear. I mean why produce a report with hundreds of pages that shows the government has plenty of evidence documenting many crimes. :)
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Octavious »

I'm legit scared as to what happens if he loses. His base is a collection of absolute shitheads who will buy anything that's said to them. He comes out and says that the election was rigged and such all hell could break loose. I also won't be surprised if he wins. Lets not forget what the polls looked like last time. Best thing that could happen would for the economy to slow down before the election as dumb as that sounds.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:04 am Just keep it peoples' minds. After 2020 he's a civilian.
I think you'd be shocked at the vast number of people that don't even know there was a special prosecutor. They simply do not care. Short of economic collapse in the next 18 months, this pile of shit is going to get re-elected. Sure, it will be a dark political stain on the history of the country, that we can be this gullible and stupid - but it's still going to happen.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Holman »

YellowKing wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:33 pm I could be wrong, but I don't see the House willing to take the political risk an impeachment effort would entail just 18 months from the election. They know it's not going to pass the Senate, so the only upside would be tarnishing Trump heading into 2020. Well, they can do that just fine without impeachment, by continuing with investigations, holding hearings with Mueller, issuing subpoenas, etc. And it's not like they're the underdog in 2020. Poll after poll has shown Trump being defeated by any random Democratic challenger. His approval rating has remained statically low since he took office. Impeachment proceedings could backfire spectacularly by firing up his base and generating sympathy.

It's really frustrating that Trump is going to get away with obstruction, but there are plenty of other criminal activities he'll be on the hook for when he leaves office. I think we may have to be content with that.
Everything you say is probably right, but it's all thinking politically. There are higher standards than that.

Congress doesn't have a calculation to make here but a duty to fulfill.

What we know from Mueller:
1) The Russians interfered in the election to help Trump,
2) Trump and his team did what they could to benefit from that, up to and including making it harder to investigate both their involvement *and* the counter-intelligence issues,
3) Trump and his team repeatedly lied and hid evidence throughout this process,
4) Trump repeatedly ordered his underlings to break the law,
5) The SC sent the report with the definite expectation that congress would see it as material to consider for impeachment.

All that is just yesterday's facts. It doesn't include other crimes and self-dealing that we've seen in plain sight for two years now.

We should remember, too, that there is more to come. By some counts there are still something like 14 cases ongoing, most of them not even mentioned and redacted in the report because they're happening outside of Mueller's mandate. (There's no mention of Trump's finances in the report, for instance. SDNY is handling such matters and tax evasion and money-laundering, some of which might point straight back to Russian involvement.) We don't even have all of the facts yet, but we have facts that should be acted upon.

Nixon was impeached for far, far less than this. If what we're looking at doesn't merit impeachment, what ever would?
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Jaymann »

YellowKing wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:57 am I still can't find any math where he gets re-elected. There were a LOT of things that had to go his way for him to barely get elected last time. How does he overcome not having those, and add votes to counter-act what will probably be record Democratic turnout? Where are those votes coming from?

I know it's fun to throw up your hands and say we'll never get rid of him, but let's look at reality.
This. I think 2018 shows this trend. The Dems got complacent with Hillary Clinton and it led the country to the abyss. I don't see this happening again.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

Holman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:18 amCongress doesn't have a calculation to make here but a duty to fulfill.
:
Nixon was impeached for far, far less than this. If what we're looking at doesn't merit impeachment, what ever would?
Are there any Congresscreatures that you are aware of that strike you as at all interested in their duty?

Nixon was impeached for far less than this because his own party turned on him. There's a 0.0% chance of that happening here, because Trump has an online mob that is loyal to him, not the Party. Doing the right thing would cost them their jobs. No chance of them volunteering for that.

I never had any respect for people like Lindsay Graham - but just observe what has happened to that miserably hypocritical wretch. The only way forward for people like that is to try to appear to be sycophants to Trump. And the best way to appear to be one is to be one. And now we've got a Party that has to pretend. They'll tell you that Trump sucks giant whale dong in private, but what good is that?
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, as I said yesterday, my take on all this is that Mueller really set up a situation where it was up to Congress to act. And of course, we know that's not going to happen while they continue to MAGA everything.

SEE: Mueller report reads like an impeachment referral via WP:
Mueller concludes: “Our investigation found multiple acts by the President that were capable of exerting undue influence over law enforcement investigations, including the Russian-interference and obstruction investigations. … The President’s efforts to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the President declined to carry out orders or accede to his requests.” Mueller then proceeds to deconstruct, through careful legal analysis, the far-fetched claim put forward by Trump’s lawyers (and endorsed by Barr!) that “the President cannot obstruct justice by exercising his constitutional authority to close Department of Justice investigations or terminate the FBI Director.”

The Mueller report conveys a strong sense that if Trump were attorney general rather than president, he would already have been indicted on a charge of obstruction of justice. But the Justice Department insists that a president can’t be criminally charged, and for that reason, Mueller refused to broach the possibility even in internal memorandums. He did add, however, that “we concluded that Congress has authority to prohibit a President’s corrupt use of his authority in order to protect the integrity of the administration of justice.”

This is practically an invitation for Congress to launch impeachment proceedings. But House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is right to be reluctant, because not even the damning evidence compiled by Mueller is likely to shake the support Trump enjoys among the Fifth Avenue Republicans. Sadly, this is one coverup that may work — at least in the sense of protecting Trump from any judgment before Nov. 3, 2020.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Zarathud »

We're overdue for an economic correction, and Trump is playing with fire on tariffs. Brexit is another economic risk and failed US leadership.

Trump was worried about his economic dealings. Use the Mueller report to show Trump is doing a cover up and lies to Americans, then investigate his economic activity. There you'll find the conflicts of interest and corruption to sink him.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Holman »

RunningMn9 wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:25 am
Holman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:18 amCongress doesn't have a calculation to make here but a duty to fulfill.
:
Nixon was impeached for far, far less than this. If what we're looking at doesn't merit impeachment, what ever would?
Are there any Congresscreatures that you are aware of that strike you as at all interested in their duty?

Nixon was impeached for far less than this because his own party turned on him. There's a 0.0% chance of that happening here, because Trump has an online mob that is loyal to him, not the Party. Doing the right thing would cost them their jobs. No chance of them volunteering for that.

I never had any respect for people like Lindsay Graham - but just observe what has happened to that miserably hypocritical wretch. The only way forward for people like that is to try to appear to be sycophants to Trump. And the best way to appear to be one is to be one. And now we've got a Party that has to pretend. They'll tell you that Trump sucks giant whale dong in private, but what good is that?
[Just to be precise, we (I) shouldn't say "Nixon was impeached," because he wasn't. He resigned when the eventual result became inevitable.]

Impeachment in the House requires a simple majority. Trump would be impeached. The process would bring to light Trump's crimes in ways that most Americans haven't had time to notice in detail.

We would then be treated to a Senate trial requiring a two-thirds majority to convict. Sure, Trump would survive this because the GOP is as corrupt as he is.

History would at least judge that congress had performed its duty in a crisis. The American people would judge how well individual members did so.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

Holman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:44 am
RunningMn9 wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:25 am
Holman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:18 amCongress doesn't have a calculation to make here but a duty to fulfill.
:
Nixon was impeached for far, far less than this. If what we're looking at doesn't merit impeachment, what ever would?
Are there any Congresscreatures that you are aware of that strike you as at all interested in their duty?

Nixon was impeached for far less than this because his own party turned on him. There's a 0.0% chance of that happening here, because Trump has an online mob that is loyal to him, not the Party. Doing the right thing would cost them their jobs. No chance of them volunteering for that.

I never had any respect for people like Lindsay Graham - but just observe what has happened to that miserably hypocritical wretch. The only way forward for people like that is to try to appear to be sycophants to Trump. And the best way to appear to be one is to be one. And now we've got a Party that has to pretend. They'll tell you that Trump sucks giant whale dong in private, but what good is that?
[Just to be precise, we (I) shouldn't say "Nixon was impeached," because he wasn't. He resigned when the eventual result became inevitable.]

Impeachment in the House requires a simple majority. Trump would be impeached. The process would bring to light Trump's crimes in ways that most Americans haven't had time to notice in detail.

We would then be treated to a Senate trial requiring a two-thirds majority to convict. Sure, Trump would survive this because the GOP is as corrupt as he is.

History would at least judge that congress had performed its duty in a crisis. The American people would judge how well individual members did so.
I think the correct tone for Democrats is something like, "What Mueller has brought to light, also confirmed by numerous press reports, is extremely troubling. This confirms that Russia illegally meddled in the 2016 election in favor of Donald Trump, that the Trump campaign was fully aware of Russian efforts and welcomed them. It also further supports the conclusion that Trump corruptly meddled in the investigations of him, and sometimes succeeded in obstructing their course. In addition to continuing our efforts to obtain the full, unredacted report, we will begin hearings on each aspects of this immediately."

I guess I'm on the fence as to whether a doomed impeachment is the right course for this. At a minimum they should aim for a congressional report and a package of laws designed to prevent this type of foreign electoral interference.

But at the end of the day there's no avoiding that this is a media / electoral fight - nothing's going to get Trump removed before 2020, so it's a matter of deciding which steps are the best messaging of this stuff.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

And Nadler just formally subpoenaed the unredacted Mueller report.

Twitter will soon be full of experts on subpoena enforcement law.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by em2nought »

Yep, let's not start focusing on governing the nation. Probably still your best option since the only counter idea to "actual" prosperity that your team would offer is Venezuela style socialism. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Image
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Skinypupy »

Now the report that Trump claims "totally exonerated" him is also "total bullshit", according to...Trump. It's like Schroedinger's Report.


...agreed to testify, it was not necessary for me to respond to statements made in the “Report” about me, some of which are total bullshit & only given to make the other person look good (or me to look bad). This was an Illegally Started Hoax that never should have happened, a...
:lol: :lol:
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

So where are we in the QAnon storyline now? Shouldn't Mueller have issued his true indictments of all of Trump's enemies by now?
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Skinypupy »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:22 am So where are we in the QAnon storyline now? Shouldn't Mueller have issued his true indictments of all of Trump's enemies by now?
Funny you should ask

These people are certifiably insane, btw. Check out this thread (caution: may require a sanity saving throw)

https://twitter.com/StormIsUponUs
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

Holman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:44 amThe American people would judge how well individual members did so.
The most important lesson I've learned from this shit show is that the American people don't care.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Sepiche »

Worth a read:
George Conway: Trump is a cancer on the presidency. Congress should remove him
As for Trump’s supposed defense that there was no underlying “collusion” crime, well, as the special counsel points out, it’s not a defense, even in a criminal prosecution. But it’s actually unhelpful in the comparison to Watergate. The underlying crime in Watergate was a clumsy, third-rate burglary in an election campaign that turned out to be a landslide.

The investigation that Trump tried to interfere with here, to protect his own personal interests, was in significant part an investigation of how a hostile foreign power interfered with our democracy. If that’s not putting personal interests above a presidential duty to the nation, nothing is.

White House counsel John Dean famously told Nixon that there was a cancer within the presidency and that it was growing. What the Mueller report disturbingly shows, with crystal clarity, is that today there is a cancer in the presidency: President Donald J. Trump.

Congress now bears the solemn constitutional duty to excise that cancer without delay.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

Holman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:18 am
YellowKing wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:33 pm I could be wrong, but I don't see the House willing to take the political risk an impeachment effort would entail just 18 months from the election. They know it's not going to pass the Senate, so the only upside would be tarnishing Trump heading into 2020. Well, they can do that just fine without impeachment, by continuing with investigations, holding hearings with Mueller, issuing subpoenas, etc. And it's not like they're the underdog in 2020. Poll after poll has shown Trump being defeated by any random Democratic challenger. His approval rating has remained statically low since he took office. Impeachment proceedings could backfire spectacularly by firing up his base and generating sympathy.

It's really frustrating that Trump is going to get away with obstruction, but there are plenty of other criminal activities he'll be on the hook for when he leaves office. I think we may have to be content with that.
Everything you say is probably right, but it's all thinking politically. There are higher standards than that.

Congress doesn't have a calculation to make here but a duty to fulfill.

What we know from Mueller:
1) The Russians interfered in the election to help Trump,
2) Trump and his team did what they could to benefit from that, up to and including making it harder to investigate both their involvement *and* the counter-intelligence issues,
3) Trump and his team repeatedly lied and hid evidence throughout this process,
4) Trump repeatedly ordered his underlings to break the law,
5) The SC sent the report with the definite expectation that congress would see it as material to consider for impeachment.

All that is just yesterday's facts. It doesn't include other crimes and self-dealing that we've seen in plain sight for two years now.

We should remember, too, that there is more to come. By some counts there are still something like 14 cases ongoing, most of them not even mentioned and redacted in the report because they're happening outside of Mueller's mandate. (There's no mention of Trump's finances in the report, for instance. SDNY is handling such matters and tax evasion and money-laundering, some of which might point straight back to Russian involvement.) We don't even have all of the facts yet, but we have facts that should be acted upon.

Nixon was impeached for far, far less than this. If what we're looking at doesn't merit impeachment, what ever would?
Yup, This is about duty, not party.

If the American electorate is so stupid as to not see it that way, we deserve what we get. This isn't a blowjob coverup.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

Pyperkub wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:09 pm
Holman wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:18 am
YellowKing wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:33 pm I could be wrong, but I don't see the House willing to take the political risk an impeachment effort would entail just 18 months from the election. They know it's not going to pass the Senate, so the only upside would be tarnishing Trump heading into 2020. Well, they can do that just fine without impeachment, by continuing with investigations, holding hearings with Mueller, issuing subpoenas, etc. And it's not like they're the underdog in 2020. Poll after poll has shown Trump being defeated by any random Democratic challenger. His approval rating has remained statically low since he took office. Impeachment proceedings could backfire spectacularly by firing up his base and generating sympathy.

It's really frustrating that Trump is going to get away with obstruction, but there are plenty of other criminal activities he'll be on the hook for when he leaves office. I think we may have to be content with that.
Everything you say is probably right, but it's all thinking politically. There are higher standards than that.

Congress doesn't have a calculation to make here but a duty to fulfill.

What we know from Mueller:
1) The Russians interfered in the election to help Trump,
2) Trump and his team did what they could to benefit from that, up to and including making it harder to investigate both their involvement *and* the counter-intelligence issues,
3) Trump and his team repeatedly lied and hid evidence throughout this process,
4) Trump repeatedly ordered his underlings to break the law,
5) The SC sent the report with the definite expectation that congress would see it as material to consider for impeachment.

All that is just yesterday's facts. It doesn't include other crimes and self-dealing that we've seen in plain sight for two years now.

We should remember, too, that there is more to come. By some counts there are still something like 14 cases ongoing, most of them not even mentioned and redacted in the report because they're happening outside of Mueller's mandate. (There's no mention of Trump's finances in the report, for instance. SDNY is handling such matters and tax evasion and money-laundering, some of which might point straight back to Russian involvement.) We don't even have all of the facts yet, but we have facts that should be acted upon.

Nixon was impeached for far, far less than this. If what we're looking at doesn't merit impeachment, what ever would?
Yup, This is about duty, not party.

If the American electorate is so stupid as to not see it that way, we deserve what we get. This isn't a blowjob coverup.
I have no doubt that Trump deserves impeachment and removal. What I am undecided on is - given that we know to a virtual certainty that Trump would never been convicted by a 2/3rds Senate majority - does it still make sense to make a doomed charge?
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by msteelers »

Especially if a doomed impeachment charge makes it more likely that Trump is re-elected.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:11 pmI have no doubt that Trump deserves impeachment and removal. What I am undecided on is - given that we know to a virtual certainty that Trump would never been convicted by a 2/3rds Senate majority - does it still make sense to make a doomed charge?
Yes, because doing nothing is inexcusable. Collectively we cannot allow a government official to act as though they are above the law while also violating the oath office they swore to uphold. The fact that he's managed to get this far is disgusting. The idea that he could continue to do so is causing irreparable harm to our governmental fabric.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:16 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:11 pmI have no doubt that Trump deserves impeachment and removal. What I am undecided on is - given that we know to a virtual certainty that Trump would never been convicted by a 2/3rds Senate majority - does it still make sense to make a doomed charge?
Yes, because doing nothing is inexcusable. Collectively we cannot allow a government official to act as though they are above the law while also violating the oath office they swore to uphold. The fact that he's managed to get this far is disgusting. The idea that he could continue to do so is causing irreparable harm to our governmental fabric.
Yes. Get it out in the open and don't let DoJ/Trump/etc. cover it up. Keep it in the public eye throughout 2019/2020. Make them publicly testify under oath about their lies, corruption and willingness to do anything for power. This will also impact the Senate in 2020 if the GOP is faced with overwhelming pubic outcry.

And if they are good enough to deny/deflect in the face of their duty and still get elected, well, it's still good to have concrete evidence that that's the world we live in and the rest of us can plan accordingly.

Allowing this to be brushed under the rug is the one thing which is unacceptable for any and all who believe in Constitutional government and a nation of laws which apply to all.
Last edited by Pyperkub on Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:16 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:11 pmI have no doubt that Trump deserves impeachment and removal. What I am undecided on is - given that we know to a virtual certainty that Trump would never been convicted by a 2/3rds Senate majority - does it still make sense to make a doomed charge?
Yes, because doing nothing is inexcusable. Collectively we cannot allow a government official to act as though they are above the law while also violating the oath office they swore to uphold. The fact that he's managed to get this far is disgusting. The idea that he could continue to do so is causing irreparable harm to our governmental fabric.
But is that really doing anything? Trump gets to stay in office through his term, and neither he nor his supporters would be remotely shamed by the fact of being impeached but not removed.

Ultimately I agree with doing "something", I'm just not sure whether that "something" means impeachment.
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:22 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:16 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:11 pmI have no doubt that Trump deserves impeachment and removal. What I am undecided on is - given that we know to a virtual certainty that Trump would never been convicted by a 2/3rds Senate majority - does it still make sense to make a doomed charge?
Yes, because doing nothing is inexcusable. Collectively we cannot allow a government official to act as though they are above the law while also violating the oath office they swore to uphold. The fact that he's managed to get this far is disgusting. The idea that he could continue to do so is causing irreparable harm to our governmental fabric.
But is that really doing anything? Trump gets to stay in office through his term, and neither he nor his supporters would be remotely shamed by the fact of being impeached but not removed.

Ultimately I agree with doing "something", I'm just not sure whether that "something" means impeachment.
That something doesn't have to be immediate impeachment.

You start with internal evaluations of the 14 remaining cases in the appropriate committees. You move to public testimony from Mueller's team and Barr. Then you move towards impeachment, perhaps of Barr and anyone involved in the 14 cases and obstruction and 2nd generation collusion/conspiracy who is still in the Administration and then you move towards Presidential Impeachment.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Holman »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:11 pm I have no doubt that Trump deserves impeachment and removal. What I am undecided on is - given that we know to a virtual certainty that Trump would never been convicted by a 2/3rds Senate majority - does it still make sense to make a doomed charge?
It's hard to know what to do. I feel strongly, but I know it's a difficult call.

I do think the American people gave the Dems the House with a mandate to check and oversee this administration's activities. Had the map not been so deeply favorable to the GOP, they would have given them the senate too.

Now the nation's top investigators have submitted to the congress a detailed report laying out crimes, bad faith, abuse of power, cover-ups, and ongoing attempts to obstruct justice. Mueller makes clear that in his legal thinking only congress has the authority to assess and judge this evidence.

How does the House *not* take up these questions and this evidence?

Maybe, as you suggested earlier, the right path is hearings and more hearings, bringing more and more of this behavior into the light. Maybe that becomes the prelude to impeachment proceedings in 2020. Maybe the election arrives while the evidence is still being explored.

I do understand that politics is politics and that a senate trial will leave Trump in office. But we're at the point where the impeachment process is what the Constitution demands. The House should do its duty. If the GOP senate wants to turn it into a travesty of justice, let them do it openly and for all to see.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

Pyperkub wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:26 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:22 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:16 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:11 pmI have no doubt that Trump deserves impeachment and removal. What I am undecided on is - given that we know to a virtual certainty that Trump would never been convicted by a 2/3rds Senate majority - does it still make sense to make a doomed charge?
Yes, because doing nothing is inexcusable. Collectively we cannot allow a government official to act as though they are above the law while also violating the oath office they swore to uphold. The fact that he's managed to get this far is disgusting. The idea that he could continue to do so is causing irreparable harm to our governmental fabric.
But is that really doing anything? Trump gets to stay in office through his term, and neither he nor his supporters would be remotely shamed by the fact of being impeached but not removed.

Ultimately I agree with doing "something", I'm just not sure whether that "something" means impeachment.
That something doesn't have to be immediate impeachment.

You start with internal evaluations of the 14 remaining cases in the appropriate committees. You move to public testimony from Mueller's team and Barr. Then you move towards impeachment, perhaps of Barr and anyone involved in the 14 cases and obstruction and 2nd generation collusion/conspiracy who is still in the Administration and then you move towards Presidential Impeachment.
I agree that a process like this, with the decision on actually impeaching to be made later, is probably the best approach.
Black Lives Matter.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

In Cross-posting to Qt3, there are a few more points as I pull it together:
***
At this point, Impeachment is a duty which transcends the political calculus. However, the case needs to be built appropriately:

It doesn’t have to be immediate impeachment.

You start with internal evaluations of the 14 remaining cases in the appropriate committees. You move to public testimony from Mueller’s team, Barr, Sanders, Hicks and others involved.

You prepare for any Oliver North moments and be ready to fully and completely discredit them.

Then you move towards impeachment, perhaps of Barr and anyone involved in the 14 cases and obstruction and 2nd generation collusion/conspiracy who is still in the Administration and then you move towards Presidential Impeachment.

Get it out in the open and don’t let DoJ/Trump/Fox/etc. cover it up. Keep it in the public eye throughout 2019/2020. Make them publicly testify under oath about their lies, corruption and willingness to do anything for power. This will also impact the Senate in 2020 if the GOP is faced with overwhelming pubic outcry.

And if they are good enough to deny/deflect in the face of their duty and still get elected, well, it’s still good to have concrete evidence that that’s the world we live in and the rest of us can plan accordingly.

Allowing this to be brushed under the rug is the one thing which is unacceptable for any and all who believe in Constitutional government and a nation of laws which apply to all.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

There is other long-math that you have to consider with impeachment. The best chance for 2020 favoring the Democrats is via lower turnout from the right. Impeachment and an attack on the best-est, greatest President (aka Dear Leader) is a big flag to rally around.

The other approach to build the case over time as mentioned above and use it to rally the *left* if engagement looks like it'll be an issue. You'd have to weigh it against the rally to the President factor. One contra-indicator is that the picture might not be clear enough before it becomes too much of a 'political stunt' in the summer. Especially with a Democratic clown car primary emerging.

Anyway, the House has a clear mandate and path to impeachment. They hold the card. They might find an occasion to play it, show it as a threat, etc. but playing it now is probably the least effective choice, since it is too far out from the election.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by GreenGoo »

Just a reminder this isn't a blowjob and then lying under oath. This is a foreign government picking who will be the president of the United States and a sitting president who knew this was happening, welcomed it, used it to his advantage, which resulted in the foreign government's efforts being successful.

But sure, don't take any concrete actions and keep your fingers crossed that 2020 goes differently.

Sounds like a plan.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:58 pm Just a reminder this isn't a blowjob and then lying under oath. This is a foreign government picking who will be the president of the United States and a sitting president who knew this was happening, welcomed it, used it to his advantage, which resulted in the foreign government's efforts being successful.

But sure, don't take any concrete actions and keep your fingers crossed that 2020 goes differently.

Sounds like a plan.
The whole problem at the moment is that said President and his allies can now unilaterally block almost any actions done in response to this situation. Hence we are left choosing amongst a variety of bad options.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Sepiche »

I'm not totally convinced of the conventional wisdom that impeachment would increase Republican turnout and therefore is a bad thing.

I think Republican turnout has been pretty close to redline the last few elections. Say what you want about Drumpf, but he is very good at manipulating and turning out his base. But there are a lot more Democrats and independents than Republicans now, and that disparity is only growing. Elections are decided now on whether or not the left is energized and turn out (2018) or are complacent and stay home (2016) more so than Republicans. In a high turnout election the Democrats have the edge... it's apathy, voter suppression, and gerrymandering that gives the edge to Republicans in close elections when the left doesn't turn out in large numbers.

Maybe there are enough right leaning independents the Republicans could convince to vote for Drumpf if the Democrats try to impeach him, but I think most of those independents are never Trumpers who would rather stay home or vote Democrat than vote for Drumpf.

It's also worth repeating whenever possible that the debate to impeach or not is only a debate because Republican Senators are chicken shits who, by and large, are putting party above country and ignoring their oaths to defend the constitution.

Edit (Better than I can say it):
Andrew Sullivan:
To refuse to use the one weapon the Founders gave us to remove such a character from office is more than cowardice. It is complicity. It is a surrender to forces which aim to make the world safe for authoritarianism. It may not work. But if we acquiesce, pretend it isn’t happening, or look away, it cannot work. This disgusting man is not just a cancer in the presidency. His presidency is a cancer in our Constitution and way of life. How long do we let this metastasize even further? How long before we take a stand? Mueller has given us the roadmap. He has done his duty. Now it’s our turn to do ours: ‘to support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Last edited by Sepiche on Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:02 pmThe whole problem at the moment is that said President and his allies can now unilaterally block almost any actions done in response to this situation. Hence we are left choosing amongst a variety of bad options.
This is the problem in a nutshell. The idea that immediate impeachment hearings are being debated is a consequence of how deep the rot goes. The Democrats have to wrestle with: an entire portion of the population that is politically 'un-woke', regressive and amoral; deeply embedded propaganda machinery driving this behavior; Constitutional structural and interpretive barriers such as the Senate composition/EC and DOJ opinions about Presidential indictment that enables the behavior; deeply vested unlimited pools of dark money building an oligarchy in the confusion; and a foreign power exploiting every divide with the tacit approval of the policy arm of the government. We knew we were deeply fucked in 2016 and the response to this report only cements that the rots spreads. This system isn't in a complete failure mode yet but it isn't hard to imagine it is too far off.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by GungHo »

Why isn't he simply arrested again? I really don't get how DOJ policy supercedes US law. There's no way trump(or any other person in this country) isn't arrested if they walk into a school with an uzi and start shooting everyone, so clearly a president can be both arrested and charged with crimes. So this DOJ policy (again policy, not a duly enacted law) is about degrees of crime for which the president cannot be charged. Which is fn stupid.
Just bc an additional means of removing the president from office exists doesn't mean that other means cease to exist. Does DOJ policy prohibit the president from dying as well?
OR
cry in a corner that the world has come to a point where you have to pay for imaginary shit.

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