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Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo » Fri May 03, 2019 11:50 pm

It's hard to like someone who strangles kittens, no matter how personable he is, when not strangling kittens.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kraken » Fri May 03, 2019 11:56 pm

Cheney is the biggest American war criminal since Kissinger. But I'm sure he's a nice guy if you get to know him.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Jaymann » Fri May 03, 2019 11:59 pm

Kraken wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:56 pm
Cheney is the biggest American war criminal since Kissinger. But I'm sure he's a nice guy if you get to know him.
As long as you don't go hunting with him.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Sat May 04, 2019 11:21 am

Kraken wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:45 pm
Well, this is a deal-breaker for me: Watch Biden praise Dick Cheney.
Biden's whole strategy appears to be to win Republican voters by flattering them. He thinks the country is hungry for bipartisanship and that the MAGA movement will dissolve into amity and comity when offered a hand across the aisle.

He was VP from 2008-2016, but apparently he thinks it's still 1992.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Sat May 04, 2019 1:58 pm




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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo » Sat May 04, 2019 2:12 pm

Why would your average conservative be a democrat? All those conservative policies they spout and implement?

I understand moderates. It makes no sense that a significant number of democrats are conservative. I'm starting to wonder if people understand what these words mean when they identify themselves.

Edit: or whether I do.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Jaymann » Sat May 04, 2019 2:37 pm

Conservative means they don't wear stripes with plaid.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kraken » Sat May 04, 2019 5:11 pm

Holman wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:21 am
Kraken wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:45 pm
Well, this is a deal-breaker for me: Watch Biden praise Dick Cheney.
Biden's whole strategy appears to be to win Republican voters by flattering them. He thinks the country is hungry for bipartisanship and that the MAGA movement will dissolve into amity and comity when offered a hand across the aisle.

He was VP from 2008-2016, but apparently he thinks it's still 1992.
Yeah...I don't care how generic Democrats feel about it, praising Cheney is a bridge too far for me. Joe is now in the same zero-enthusiasm bucket that Hillary occupied.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Sat May 04, 2019 6:05 pm


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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Sat May 04, 2019 6:18 pm

A look at Cory Book's Bookershelves:


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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Unagi » Sat May 04, 2019 8:10 pm

Defiant wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 1:58 pm

To say "Dem voters are old and not liberal" is what??? Is this an attempt to undermine more 'typical' democrats from participating??

Honestly... sounds to me like there are a number of good old fashioned conservatives that never would have been dems before now...

That explains the larger amount of 50+ than 'expected' as well as that part about them being 50% mod/conservative.

I don't mean to sound snippy (certainly not to you, Defiant)


Harry Enten should have said...


"... but it's all pretty clear. More and more Old and Conservative voters are leaving the ranks of Rep Voters and joining up with Dems."

But that isn't what they said.... but that is what that is.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Sat May 04, 2019 8:42 pm

"Conservative Democrats" are what we usually call moderates. They're fiscally conservative and embrace fair capitalism as they understand it, but they can't embrace the GOP because they're not socially reactionary.

By any scale that makes sense, Republicans no longer include conservatives at all. The Trump GOP spectrum runs from reactionary to fascist.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by El Guapo » Sat May 04, 2019 10:31 pm

Kraken wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:56 pm
Cheney is the biggest American war criminal since Kissinger. But I'm sure he's a nice guy if you get to know him.
Shrug. To me this is just saying that Cheney isn't a comic book villain - he was someone who did what he thought was best for America. I know lots of decent people with terrible beliefs.

YMMV, but this seems low bar for something completely disqualifying.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo » Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 pm

Terrible beliefs are exactly what make people not decent.

I mean, that's the definition.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Sat May 04, 2019 10:56 pm

I personally know dozens of people with bad politics and good hearts.

None of them repeatedly lied and forced my country into an unnecessary war that destabilized the modern world, though. I don't think I could forgive them if they did.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kraken » Sun May 05, 2019 12:17 am

El Guapo wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:31 pm
Kraken wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:56 pm
Cheney is the biggest American war criminal since Kissinger. But I'm sure he's a nice guy if you get to know him.
Shrug. To me this is just saying that Cheney isn't a comic book villain - he was someone who did what he thought was best for America. I know lots of decent people with terrible beliefs.

YMMV, but this seems low bar for something completely disqualifying.
MMV. Having the blood of 460,000 people on one's hands (Cheney) clears most bars. Overlooking said blood (Biden) clears mine.

Politically, I'm still open to (if skeptical of) the centrist argument that Americans crave a return to normalcy more than a transformation. That's a different topic, and candidates other than Biden are trying to sell it. I would encourage my centrist friends to look elsewhere.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Sun May 05, 2019 12:32 am

Holman wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:42 pm
"Conservative Democrats" are what we usually call moderates. They're fiscally conservative and embrace fair capitalism as they understand it, but they can't embrace the GOP because they're not socially reactionary.

By any scale that makes sense, Republicans no longer include conservatives at all. The Trump GOP spectrum runs from reactionary to fascist.
There are fiscally conservative Democrats as you suggest. There are socially conservative Democrats (See, for example, religious African Americans that were very slow to support marriage equality). There are Democrats who aren't what we would normally consider Democrats, but register as Democrat for other reasons (eg, if Republicans have no power in their locale, and you need to register as a Democrat to get a say during the primary, etc) and don't vote Democrat in the general election. And there might be conservative Republicans who have left the Republican party in recent years because they could no longer support it.

But from what I remember of the polls, of that 50%, it's like ~40% moderates and ~10% conservative.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by El Guapo » Sun May 05, 2019 7:53 am

Kraken wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 12:17 am
El Guapo wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:31 pm
Kraken wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:56 pm
Cheney is the biggest American war criminal since Kissinger. But I'm sure he's a nice guy if you get to know him.
Shrug. To me this is just saying that Cheney isn't a comic book villain - he was someone who did what he thought was best for America. I know lots of decent people with terrible beliefs.

YMMV, but this seems low bar for something completely disqualifying.
MMV. Having the blood of 460,000 people on one's hands (Cheney) clears most bars. Overlooking said blood (Biden) clears mine.

Politically, I'm still open to (if skeptical of) the centrist argument that Americans crave a return to normalcy more than a transformation. That's a different topic, and candidates other than Biden are trying to sell it. I would encourage my centrist friends to look elsewhere.
I assume that you're referring to the Iraq War? I may be more sympathetic because I supported that war at the time (mostly on the grounds that it seemed like a good idea to replace a tyrant with democratic institutions). It was a mistake, but I think it makes me somewhat more forgiving of those involved in it.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by YellowKing » Sun May 05, 2019 8:58 am

Holman wrote:Biden's whole strategy appears to be to win Republican voters by flattering them. He thinks the country is hungry for bipartisanship and that the MAGA movement will dissolve into amity and comity when offered a hand across the aisle.
I think by and large the country is hungry for bipartisanship. At least the majority of the country.

When your choices are always binary, of course the surface is going to look like everyone falls into either the red or blue bucket. But the reality is that there are a lot of shades going on between those reds and blues, and it's not unreasonable to think those purple voters can't be persuaded.

In the end, there's literally no solution to hyper-partisanship WITHOUT reaching across the aisle. Otherwise we're just going to entrench even further.

Just because a problem is big doesn't mean you shouldn't try to solve it.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kraken » Sun May 05, 2019 10:24 am

El Guapo wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:53 am
Kraken wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 12:17 am
El Guapo wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:31 pm
Kraken wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:56 pm
Cheney is the biggest American war criminal since Kissinger. But I'm sure he's a nice guy if you get to know him.
Shrug. To me this is just saying that Cheney isn't a comic book villain - he was someone who did what he thought was best for America. I know lots of decent people with terrible beliefs.

YMMV, but this seems low bar for something completely disqualifying.
MMV. Having the blood of 460,000 people on one's hands (Cheney) clears most bars. Overlooking said blood (Biden) clears mine.

Politically, I'm still open to (if skeptical of) the centrist argument that Americans crave a return to normalcy more than a transformation. That's a different topic, and candidates other than Biden are trying to sell it. I would encourage my centrist friends to look elsewhere.
I assume that you're referring to the Iraq War? I may be more sympathetic because I supported that war at the time (mostly on the grounds that it seemed like a good idea to replace a tyrant with democratic institutions). It was a mistake, but I think it makes me somewhat more forgiving of those involved in it.
I fell for the neocon line, too. Cheney ginned up the justifications and deceived us, and nearly half a million died. I don't think he's ever expressed remorse. Hard to forgive that. But we're evaluating Biden, not Cheney. By itself, his admiration for the man is not a knockout blow...but I already had other reservations about Biden, so it's enough to put me over the edge.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by YellowKing » Sun May 05, 2019 1:24 pm

You can like someone on a personal level and not agree or admire 100% of everything they do. I've got many, many Trump-voting friends (and family members, for that matter) that I like on a personal level even though I don't agree with their politics at all. And they are good people.

I don't see that as a flaw in Biden, but a strength. He's looking at the good in someone that had some terrible policies. We need more of that, not less, if we're going to turn around Trump's stoking of the partisan flames.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Zarathud » Sun May 05, 2019 1:27 pm

Biden is likely also judging Bush-Cheney in comparison to Trump-Pence.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo » Sun May 05, 2019 1:55 pm

As Kraken points out, the problem isn't a difference of politics, so reframing the discussion in those terms is not useful.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Sun May 05, 2019 4:05 pm


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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by GreenGoo » Sun May 05, 2019 5:13 pm

Homosexuals and women in the armed forces reduces their fighting readiness.

Fact.
Edit: for anyone not paying attention, I'm a proponent of women in combat roles. The above was supposed to be comedic.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Unagi » Sun May 05, 2019 8:28 pm

Kraken wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 10:24 am
so it's enough to put me over the edge.
I'm just trying to guage your degree of 'deal breaker' here.

Are you saying in a Trump vs Biden 2020 Presidency you would not vote for Biden? Or is this only in regard to a primary vote situation?

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kraken » Sun May 05, 2019 9:39 pm

Unagi wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:28 pm
Kraken wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 10:24 am
so it's enough to put me over the edge.
I'm just trying to guage your degree of 'deal breaker' here.

Are you saying in a Trump vs Biden 2020 Presidency you would not vote for Biden? Or is this only in regard to a primary vote situation?
I would vote for a box of feces over Trump, so it's only as far as the primaries go.

Trump is one of three emergencies threatening the existence of the US. Biden might end that one. I have low confidence that he would make meaningful progress against the other two (inequality and climate change). But the Trump crisis has to be solved first.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Unagi » Sun May 05, 2019 9:46 pm

Kraken wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:39 pm
I would vote for a box of feces over Trump, so it's only as far as the primaries go.
OK. Sanity check. whew
Thanks.

I agree regarding primaries.
But I couldn't begin to tell you how great Biden is, if he wins the primary.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Thu May 09, 2019 10:16 am



:lol:

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Smoove_B » Thu May 09, 2019 10:34 am

I would probably watch "Kids Say the Darndest Things" with Bernie Sanders. :lol:

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kurth » Thu May 09, 2019 10:36 am

Holman wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 11:21 am
Kraken wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:45 pm
Well, this is a deal-breaker for me: Watch Biden praise Dick Cheney.
Biden's whole strategy appears to be to win Republican voters by flattering them. He thinks the country is hungry for bipartisanship and that the MAGA movement will dissolve into amity and comity when offered a hand across the aisle.

He was VP from 2008-2016, but apparently he thinks it's still 1992.

(1) As already noted, Biden’s “praise” for Cheney has nothing to do with Cheney’s policies. All he said was Cheney was gracious to the Biden’s during the transition of power and he took time to talk with Joe about the office of VP. And he said he believes he is a decent man. Yep, total dealbreaker stuff there. :roll:

(2) For the “pitchforks in the streets” crowd, Biden is never going to be your choice in this crowded field of candidates, so I guess it is what it is. I’m not in that crowd, and I have no problems with someone who wants to go to war with Donald Trump in a way that does not seek to vilify the nearly half of our country that voted for Trump.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Thu May 09, 2019 11:57 am

Can we at least agree that Dick Cheney is *not* a decent man?
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by rittchard » Thu May 09, 2019 5:58 pm

I got to see Pete at a small fundraising event this morning and he was fantastic as usual, pretty much exactly what you see and hear in larger rallies but with a more intimate feel (about 50 people I'd guess). He answered questions from the audience for about 40 minutes straight. Interestingly not a single mention of him being gay or anything having to do with that, everything was about policies and strategy, etc.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by El Guapo » Fri May 10, 2019 9:52 am

Holman wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:57 am
Can we at least agree that Dick Cheney is *not* a decent man?
Well, this is an interesting question. If someone is honestly and selflessly carrying out what he/she thinks is best for the country, but their (honest) beliefs are horrible, are they a decent / good person? Like, Paul Ryan in particular has incredibly noxious political beliefs, and in pursuing them has done a lot of harm to the country and to the people of this country. However, as far as I can tell he genuinely believes that his beliefs were best for the country, and I haven't seen any indication of him being corrupt or anything. So would Paul Ryan be a "decent man"? I feel like you could argue either side of that question.

Similarly, Dick Cheney's political beliefs have caused a lot of harm to the country. As far as I know he genuinely believes them (I don't think he pursued them as cover for personal gain). Is he a decent man? Maybe, maybe not. Also I don't care all that much about that anyway, since I think we ought to focus on what policies are good or bad and less on the state of any given politician's soul.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Remus West » Fri May 10, 2019 11:09 am

El Guapo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 9:52 am
Holman wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:57 am
Can we at least agree that Dick Cheney is *not* a decent man?
Well, this is an interesting question. If someone is honestly and selflessly carrying out what he/she thinks is best for the country, but their (honest) beliefs are horrible, are they a decent / good person? Like, Paul Ryan in particular has incredibly noxious political beliefs, and in pursuing them has done a lot of harm to the country and to the people of this country. However, as far as I can tell he genuinely believes that his beliefs were best for the country, and I haven't seen any indication of him being corrupt or anything. So would Paul Ryan be a "decent man"? I feel like you could argue either side of that question.

Similarly, Dick Cheney's political beliefs have caused a lot of harm to the country. As far as I know he genuinely believes them (I don't think he pursued them as cover for personal gain). Is he a decent man? Maybe, maybe not. Also I don't care all that much about that anyway, since I think we ought to focus on what policies are good or bad and less on the state of any given politician's soul.
I don't care how sincere you are in your efforts when you do the level of damage that those two have done you are not a good person. When your policy decisions cause way more harm than good AND you make no effort to fix any of that harm then you are certainly a bad person in my eyes. If you do not see the harm it just make you blind as well as bad.

As an aside, I'd say Ryan doesn't see the damage he has done as damage while Cheney believes the harm he has caused either is outweighed by the good or prevented far greater harm and thus both view themselves as a good people.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by stessier » Fri May 10, 2019 11:10 am

El Guapo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 9:52 am
Holman wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:57 am
Can we at least agree that Dick Cheney is *not* a decent man?
Well, this is an interesting question. If someone is honestly and selflessly carrying out what he/she thinks is best for the country, but their (honest) beliefs are horrible, are they a decent / good person? Like, Paul Ryan in particular has incredibly noxious political beliefs, and in pursuing them has done a lot of harm to the country and to the people of this country. However, as far as I can tell he genuinely believes that his beliefs were best for the country, and I haven't seen any indication of him being corrupt or anything. So would Paul Ryan be a "decent man"? I feel like you could argue either side of that question.

Similarly, Dick Cheney's political beliefs have caused a lot of harm to the country. As far as I know he genuinely believes them (I don't think he pursued them as cover for personal gain). Is he a decent man? Maybe, maybe not.
In general, I agree that you can argue both sides. But there must be a limit somewhere, I'm just not smart enough to see it. After all, Hitler. Or more topically - Thanos.
Also I don't care all that much about that anyway, since I think we ought to focus on what policies are good or bad and less on the state of any given politician's soul.
Where's the fun in that?
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Fri May 10, 2019 12:44 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 9:52 am
Holman wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:57 am
Can we at least agree that Dick Cheney is *not* a decent man?
Well, this is an interesting question. If someone is honestly and selflessly carrying out what he/she thinks is best for the country, but their (honest) beliefs are horrible, are they a decent / good person? Like, Paul Ryan in particular has incredibly noxious political beliefs, and in pursuing them has done a lot of harm to the country and to the people of this country. However, as far as I can tell he genuinely believes that his beliefs were best for the country, and I haven't seen any indication of him being corrupt or anything. So would Paul Ryan be a "decent man"? I feel like you could argue either side of that question.

Similarly, Dick Cheney's political beliefs have caused a lot of harm to the country. As far as I know he genuinely believes them (I don't think he pursued them as cover for personal gain). Is he a decent man? Maybe, maybe not. Also I don't care all that much about that anyway, since I think we ought to focus on what policies are good or bad and less on the state of any given politician's soul.
But Cheney entirely fails your "honestly and selflessly" standard. There's no doubt that he intentionally manipulated secret intelligence, thwarted diplomacy, and interfered with good-faith international inspections in order to take advantage of the post-9/11 climate and build the case for the Iraq War.

His sincere belief that Saddam had to go doesn't excuse any of that. He was in a position of great influence (perhaps the greatest on the planet), and he knowingly steered the country into war on false pretenses. With that kind of power comes responsibility for all of the foreseeable consequences and many of the unforeseen ones.

In counterpoint, George Bush might actually come off cleaner than Cheney because he was in some ways a victim of Cheney's manipulations like the rest of us. I suppose this depends on the degree to which he chose to ignore whatever contrary indicators were available to him as POTUS.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by YellowKing » Fri May 10, 2019 12:50 pm

It really depends on how you're defining "decency."

Are you defining it as the sum of all your actions? Or are you defining it as to whether you're a friendly colleague who is gracious enough to have you over for dinner even though you're from opposite ends of the political spectrum? From that conversation, I felt like Biden was defining it mostly by the latter.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Fri May 10, 2019 1:09 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:50 pm
It really depends on how you're defining "decency."

Are you defining it as the sum of all your actions? Or are you defining it as to whether you're a friendly colleague who is gracious enough to have you over for dinner even though you're from opposite ends of the political spectrum? From that conversation, I felt like Biden was defining it mostly by the latter.
Since we live in a world where Cheney isn't held responsible for the catastrophe he engineered, Biden is in the clear, sure.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Jeff V » Fri May 10, 2019 1:47 pm

The last person who called Cheney indecent got shot in the face. Just sayin'.

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