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Game of Thrones Season 8

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Blackhawk » Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 pm

Not picking on anyone in particular - this is a response to a half a dozen posts over the last couple of pages.

There is an awful lot of "she didn't need to go mad because she had already won" in here. When trying to understand mental illness, the fact that it is irrational isn't really an argument for or against.

And she wasn't 'evil' all along, but she did have vindictive, bloodthirsty impulses all along, kept in check by her friends and advisors.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V » Tue May 14, 2019 8:28 pm

Having small children, I'm familiar with the progression Dany went through. It's called a tantrum -- things aren't going my way, so fuck you all, here comes all the misery I can muster.

She was seemingly raised with no real moral compass. Raised without caring parents in a savage environment, she might have had advisers but never really emerged from the teenage angst/know-it-all phase. Remember what she said to Tyrion before the battle? "The next time you fail me will be the last time you fail me." This it not a person who respects the advise of others.

So what can we expect to see in the final episode? There are so few characters left. There will be some sort of Jon/Dany showdown -- the look on his face last episode, no way can he continue to stand by her after what she did. But he repeatedly has said he does not want the Iron Throne. Does he reluctantly accept it? Does Tyrion manage to avoid getting roasted like a marshmallow? Now, there's been one announced prequel, with different writers/directors that's currently in the casting stage -- but also suggestions there might be 3-4 simultaneous spin-offs. Does Harrington, Clark, and Dinklage, the three most popular surviving characters, form a nucleus for one of these TBD spin offs? Westeros is going to be a very different place, and the dust won't settle during the final episode. If there could be only one, I'd guess it'd be Jon, only because from the start, it's mainly been a song of Starks. Or maybe Bran? I don't see Arya being anything besides a death-dealing tool, and if Sansa comes out on top I'm gonna cancel HBO (yes, her character in the show grew to be less pathetic than the Sansa in the books but still keep wishing a dire wolf would put her out of our misery and bite her face off. Then Arya can use the face for more sinister reasons).

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman » Tue May 14, 2019 8:30 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 pm
Not picking on anyone in particular - this is a response to a half a dozen posts over the last couple of pages.

There is an awful lot of "she didn't need to go mad because she had already won" in here. When trying to understand mental illness, the fact that it is irrational isn't really an argument for or against.

And she wasn't 'evil' all along, but she did have vindictive, bloodthirsty impulses all along, kept in check by her friends and advisors.
The point isn't a realistic model of mental illness. The point is that satisfying storytelling would respect the themes and complexities of the past decade's episodes.

Sheer madness is a weak narrative device because it declares that any action is suddenly and inexplicably possible.

If Return of the Jedi had ended abruptly with Luke gibbering and cutting his own throat when brought before Vader and the Emperor, would you have turned to psych textbooks to explain it or would you have flipped the bird to George Lucas? That's where we are.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Hyena » Tue May 14, 2019 8:31 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 pm
Not picking on anyone in particular - this is a response to a half a dozen posts over the last couple of pages.

There is an awful lot of "she didn't need to go mad because she had already won" in here. When trying to understand mental illness, the fact that it is irrational isn't really an argument for or against.

And she wasn't 'evil' all along, but she did have vindictive, bloodthirsty impulses all along, kept in check by her friends and advisors.
Yep. It was mostly subtle (sometimes not), but it was there. Almost like an itch that you can't quite find the cause for. I always thought in the back of my mind that there was something off about her, but never in a hundred years did I think she would do this. My wife and I were actively begging the screen for her not to do it.

I thought it was like the Sixth Sense twist. You dont really see it the first time around, just little hints that something ain't right, but going back it was always going this direction, I think.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by $iljanus » Tue May 14, 2019 8:58 pm

I didn’t like the writing at all for the last episode but it would be a cop out if they chalk her behavior up to having Targaryen insanity. She just ended up playing the Game of Thrones like many ruthless male leaders in Westeros in the end. I also didn’t like how neutered Cersei was at the end. She didn’t even really have a role in this season.

I think I’ll just fondly remember the second episode of this season where I saw some wonderful acting.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Toe » Tue May 14, 2019 9:45 pm

Hyena wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 7:29 pm
Toe wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:04 pm
Some more thoughts and analysis:

I think most people would agree that the "madness" being reffered to in GoT is schizophrenia? It is something that can be genetically passed on and also occurs more frequently in incestual offspring, so seems a given.

An interesting stat on schizophrenia is that it's symptoms typically begin in the late 20s (for females, a little sooner in males). From a timing perspective, does make more sense that she "broke" now and had not being showing those same signs earlier.

She strikes out on quite a few of the typical symptoms of schizophrenia, but some are broad enough to fit her actions in.

Positive symptoms are disturbances that are “added” to the person’s personality.

Delusions
–false ideas--individuals may believe that someone is spying on him or her, or that they are someone famous (or a religious figure).

Hallucinations
–seeing, feeling, tasting, hearing or smelling something that doesn’t really exist. The most common experience is hearing imaginary voices that give commands or comments to the individual.

Disordered thinking and speech
–moving from one topic to another, in a nonsensical fashion. Individuals may also make up their own words or sounds, rhyme in a way that doesn't make sense, or repeat words and ideas.

Disorganized behavior
–this can range from having problems with routine behaviors like hygiene or chosing appropriate clothing for the weather, to unprovoked outbursts, to impulsive and uninhibited actions. A person may also have movements that seem anxious, agitated, tense or constant without any apparent reason.

Negative symptoms are capabilities that are “lost” from the person’s personality.

Social withdrawal
Extreme apathy (lack of interest or enthusiasm)
Lack of drive or initiative
Emotional flatness
I feel this is putting too specific a label on it. You can't break down her symptoms, or lack there of, and say, "Clearly we're dealing with a case of schizophrenia." The "madness" I see is one borne of an entire life of seeking revenge, living under the stigma of having an insane father for a king that was murdered for trying to burn the kingdom down around his own head, and paranoia that all her closest allies are dead and gone. When she is finally and quite literally on the doorstep of achieving her life-long goal of revenge and reclaiming what she views as her birthright, she sees it all taken from her. She's not some clinically diagnosed case of schizophrenia, she's a barren, incest-produced, pissed-off, twenty-something girl, spurned by her lover/nephew who (in her mind) will take everything from her she's worked for and fought for and endured absolute HELL for. She is obviously not in a right frame of mind, and when you put steam under pressure for too long, it *will* explode.
I am making the case that she was schizophrenic. It is obvious (to me anyway) that her father a was schizophrenic, as he symptoms were more classic and, as I mentioned already, schizophrenic is higher among 1) kids of incest and 2) higher in kids whose parents were schizophrenic. So that makes Targareyans extremely high-risk (which is further reinforced by the 'flip a coin when born" statement. I wonder if we will see her exhibit further symptoms next episode?

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Tue May 14, 2019 10:34 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:30 pm
The point isn't a realistic model of mental illness. The point is that satisfying storytelling would respect the themes and complexities of the past decade's episodes.
Yep, it isn't a knock on illness , but a knock on weak writing. If it had been better written to support that turnabout, then likely many would not have the issue they're having. In rushing to get through to the end, it felt like the writers were taking the easy way out. For an 8th and final season, it's disappointing where the characters have ended up.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by D.A.Lewis » Tue May 14, 2019 11:05 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:28 pm
. . . . and if Sansa comes out on top I'm gonna cancel HBO . . . . . .

Well maybe not cancel HBO, but call on Granpa Simpson to teach me how to give them the frowning of my LIFE.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman » Tue May 14, 2019 11:51 pm

I don't think Dany is mad in the clinical sense. I think she 'went postal' as we used to call it. People who go postal aren't necessarily mad, suffering from madness. They might be perfectly functional and even 'normal' until one day something sets them off.

In the episode, which takes place after she's already been brought low, she finds out about a string of betrayals by people who are supposed to be dedicated to putting her on the throne-SNAP!

By the way, the bells were Tyrion's idea. You think when Dany heard them she didn't remember this is a Tyrion suggested move, the same Tyrion who was sneaking around behind her back? The same "I know things" idiot who got played by Sansa? Those bells weren't going to be seen in a positive light by her.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Wed May 15, 2019 12:26 am

gameoverman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:51 pm
By the way, the bells were Tyrion's idea. You think when Dany heard them she didn't remember this is a Tyrion suggested move, the same Tyrion who was sneaking around behind her back? The same "I know things" idiot who got played by Sansa? Those bells weren't going to be seen in a positive light by her.


Maybe so, but the bells were still an act to her help her achieve her goal. So, in some way, he was still loyal enough to her to see it through. And even though he was a friend to Varys, he stood by while she torched him, without a word. So, I think with this act of desperation, she's likely destroyed her own chances.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman » Wed May 15, 2019 2:27 am

Rumpy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:26 am
gameoverman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:51 pm
By the way, the bells were Tyrion's idea. You think when Dany heard them she didn't remember this is a Tyrion suggested move, the same Tyrion who was sneaking around behind her back? The same "I know things" idiot who got played by Sansa? Those bells weren't going to be seen in a positive light by her.


Maybe so, but the bells were still an act to her help her achieve her goal. So, in some way, he was still loyal enough to her to see it through. And even though he was a friend to Varys, he stood by while she torched him, without a word. So, I think with this act of desperation, she's likely destroyed her own chances.
Remember when Euron killed her dragon and she charged directly at the ships before turning away at the last second? I think it's fair to say that sometimes, when stressed, she's not exactly thinking before she acts. At best, torching the city buys her some time, since the survivors will be in too much disarray to do anything to her. So I agree her move certainly didn't help her cause. I think its true value to her was in the momentary satisfaction she gets from indulging in her rage.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Wed May 15, 2019 11:52 am

gameoverman wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:27 am
Rumpy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:26 am
gameoverman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:51 pm
By the way, the bells were Tyrion's idea. You think when Dany heard them she didn't remember this is a Tyrion suggested move, the same Tyrion who was sneaking around behind her back? The same "I know things" idiot who got played by Sansa? Those bells weren't going to be seen in a positive light by her.


Maybe so, but the bells were still an act to her help her achieve her goal. So, in some way, he was still loyal enough to her to see it through. And even though he was a friend to Varys, he stood by while she torched him, without a word. So, I think with this act of desperation, she's likely destroyed her own chances.
Remember when Euron killed her dragon and she charged directly at the ships before turning away at the last second? I think it's fair to say that sometimes, when stressed, she's not exactly thinking before she acts. At best, torching the city buys her some time, since the survivors will be in too much disarray to do anything to her. So I agree her move certainly didn't help her cause. I think its true value to her was in the momentary satisfaction she gets from indulging in her rage.
If she was in such a rage, why did she wait for the bells?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by stimpy » Wed May 15, 2019 12:19 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:52 am
gameoverman wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:27 am
Rumpy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:26 am
gameoverman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:51 pm
By the way, the bells were Tyrion's idea. You think when Dany heard them she didn't remember this is a Tyrion suggested move, the same Tyrion who was sneaking around behind her back? The same "I know things" idiot who got played by Sansa? Those bells weren't going to be seen in a positive light by her.


Maybe so, but the bells were still an act to her help her achieve her goal. So, in some way, he was still loyal enough to her to see it through. And even though he was a friend to Varys, he stood by while she torched him, without a word. So, I think with this act of desperation, she's likely destroyed her own chances.
Remember when Euron killed her dragon and she charged directly at the ships before turning away at the last second? I think it's fair to say that sometimes, when stressed, she's not exactly thinking before she acts. At best, torching the city buys her some time, since the survivors will be in too much disarray to do anything to her. So I agree her move certainly didn't help her cause. I think its true value to her was in the momentary satisfaction she gets from indulging in her rage.
If she was in such a rage, why did she wait for the bells?
Because she knew they had laid down their arms and were vulnerable?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Wed May 15, 2019 12:28 pm

So calculating, reasonable rage then?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Wed May 15, 2019 1:02 pm

hepcat wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:28 pm
So calculating, reasonable rage then?
Rational too.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by wonderpug » Wed May 15, 2019 1:03 pm

With the bells, she was seeing the end of the conquering... but in a way that would still not bring her the throne. She was finally at the end of her lifelong quest, but she was wrestling with the knowledge that this resolution would still not bring her the throne, or at least not with the amount of permanence she needed. Little voice on one shoulder reminded her that the route of ruling through fear was still open to her, and she decided to run with that.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Wed May 15, 2019 1:04 pm

wonderpug wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:03 pm
With the bells, she was seeing the end of the conquering... but in a way that would still not bring her the throne. She was finally at the end of her lifelong quest, but she was wrestling with the knowledge that this resolution would still not bring her the throne, or at least not with the amount of permanence she needed. Little voice on one shoulder reminded her that the route of ruling through fear was still open to her, and she decided to run with that.
How about just killing Jon? Seems like that would be the better tactic.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Wed May 15, 2019 1:05 pm

The heart wants what the heart wants.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by rittchard » Wed May 15, 2019 1:06 pm

hepcat wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 12:28 pm
So calculating, reasonable rage then?


Direct from the showrunners: "it's in that moment (seeing the Red Keep) when she makes the decision to make this personal."

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Wed May 15, 2019 1:07 pm

rittchard wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:06 pm
Direct from the showrunners: "it's in that moment (seeing the Red Keep) when she makes the decision to make this personal."
If only she had chosen to make it personal rather than what she actually did do.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Wed May 15, 2019 1:08 pm

Why do people keep trying to make Dany's actions rational? They're not rational. That's the point.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Wed May 15, 2019 1:12 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:08 pm
Why do people keep trying to make Dany's actions rational? They're not rational. That's the point.
Because until that moment she's shown zero irrational tendencies.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Wed May 15, 2019 1:16 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:12 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:08 pm
Why do people keep trying to make Dany's actions rational? They're not rational. That's the point.
Because until that moment she's shown zero irrational tendencies.
Didn't we already go over this? Are you just making sure that this horse is really, really dead?
noxiousdog wrote:
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Combustible Lemur wrote:
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They are shortcutting, I don't think the arc is unfounded though, just poorly handled.
I'm fine with that. I thought you were suggesting they were doing it just fine.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Wed May 15, 2019 1:20 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:16 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:12 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:08 pm
Why do people keep trying to make Dany's actions rational? They're not rational. That's the point.
Because until that moment she's shown zero irrational tendencies.
Didn't we already go over this? Are you just making sure that this horse is really, really dead?
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:36 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm
They are shortcutting, I don't think the arc is unfounded though, just poorly handled.
I'm fine with that. I thought you were suggesting they were doing it just fine.
It's because the more I have this conversation, the more poorly handled it seems.

For example, when she sees the Red Keep... you know, the most obvious landmark from every direction in kings landing.... that's when she gets upset. And not last week when she saw it, but this week.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Wed May 15, 2019 1:23 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:16 pm

Didn't we already go over this? Are you just making sure that this horse is really, really dead?

The irrational tendencies are still a question.

There are two explanations for her actions:
1. Insanity - She's crazy and just snapped.
2. Rational - She is using fear to strengthen her shrinking claim to the throne.

Both things are possible.
Insanity - She has a family history of insanity and wanting to burn King's Landing.
Rational - She has shown a willingness to do horrific things to send a message (burning the condemned using a goddamn dragon, crucifying slavers, said she would burn the city). This could be a power move that she's always been capable of executing.

I honestly don't know if it's one of these or a combination. That's my dilemma. But I can see why people are questioning how she can be both crazy and rational.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Wed May 15, 2019 1:41 pm


McNutt wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:16 pm

Didn't we already go over this? Are you just making sure that this horse is really, really dead?

The irrational tendencies are still a question.

There are two explanations for her actions:
1. Insanity - She's crazy and just snapped.
2. Rational - She is using fear to strengthen her shrinking claim to the throne.

Both things are possible.
Insanity - She has a family history of insanity and wanting to burn King's Landing.
Rational - She has shown a willingness to do horrific things to send a message (burning the condemned using a goddamn dragon, crucifying slavers, said she would burn the city). This could be a power move that she's always been capable of executing.

I honestly don't know if it's one of these or a combination. That's my dilemma. But I can see why people are questioning how she can be both crazy and rational.
'Game of Thrones' was never a game: Why that shocking twist makes total sense interesting take.

I don't get the either or hard line crazy or rational argument in the least.
Religional is irrational, the doesn't make people CRAZY.
Otherwise rational people snap all the time, that's what a crime of passion is.
Soldiers sometimes kill civilians out of rage and frustration. It doesn't mean they're crazy.
She has killed thousands by declaration already and those were when she was still more idealistic that she is now, and felt greater connection to the people than than those of westeros. She's always been a fanatic of her own righteousness. Its both.

She's the Mary Tudor of GOT. A persecuted young monarch who despite benevolent qualities finds it correct to start executing heretics. Until it gets out of hand. Or out of breath as the case may be.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Wed May 15, 2019 1:45 pm

wonderpug wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:03 pm
With the bells, she was seeing the end of the conquering... but in a way that would still not bring her the throne.
But how do we know that? By the time this happens, Cersei's the only one who's still really smugly confident while her troops have layed down their arms. In an earlier scene, she's told her own troops would hold the city better than the sellswords. If her own troops won't fight for her anymore, then how is that not a total victory? What else is stopping her? Because really, I'm not seeing it. She could have announced that the throne was finally hers after that long journey. It was within reach! But now, I'm having serious doubts about wether those who've stuck by her side all these years will still want to be associated with her. It's like someone running a marathon who gives up when they're nearly at the finish line. It's just crappy writing, period.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Wed May 15, 2019 1:50 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:41 pm
McNutt wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:16 pm

Didn't we already go over this? Are you just making sure that this horse is really, really dead?

The irrational tendencies are still a question.

There are two explanations for her actions:
1. Insanity - She's crazy and just snapped.
2. Rational - She is using fear to strengthen her shrinking claim to the throne.

Both things are possible.
Insanity - She has a family history of insanity and wanting to burn King's Landing.
Rational - She has shown a willingness to do horrific things to send a message (burning the condemned using a goddamn dragon, crucifying slavers, said she would burn the city). This could be a power move that she's always been capable of executing.

I honestly don't know if it's one of these or a combination. That's my dilemma. But I can see why people are questioning how she can be both crazy and rational.
'Game of Thrones' was never a game: Why that shocking twist makes total sense interesting take.

I don't get the either or hard line crazy or rational argument in the least.
Religional is irrational, the doesn't make people CRAZY.
Otherwise rational people snap all the time, that's what a crime of passion is.
Soldiers sometimes kill civilians out of rage and frustration. It doesn't mean they're crazy.
She has killed thousands by declaration already and those were when she was still more idealistic that she is now, and felt greater connection to the people than than those of westeros. She's always been a fanatic of her own righteousness. Its both.

She's the Mary Tudor of GOT. A persecuted young monarch who despite benevolent qualities finds it correct to start executing heretics. Until it gets out of hand. Or out of breath as the case may be.

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If she killed 300, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Probably not if it were 3000. Maybe not 30,000. 100,000? Now we're having the conversation.
Last edited by noxiousdog on Wed May 15, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Wed May 15, 2019 1:50 pm

I've pretty much given up on this whole thing. I thought it was poorly handled, they rushed this last season, and I see no real signs in Dany's past that make me think she was prone to madness. I've seen nothing that convinces me otherwise, but I also realize that those who disagree have also found nothing to convince them otherwise. So I'm going to go back to making jokes about Hot Pie.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Wed May 15, 2019 1:53 pm

Rumpy wrote:
wonderpug wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:03 pm
With the bells, she was seeing the end of the conquering... but in a way that would still not bring her the throne.
But how do we know that? By the time this happens, Cersei's the only one who's still really smugly confident while her troops have layed down their arms. In an earlier scene, she's told her own troops would hold the city better than the sellswords. If her own troops won't fight for her anymore, then how is that not a total victory? What else is stopping her? Because really, I'm not seeing it. She could have announced that the throne was finally hers after that long journey. It was within reach! But now, I'm having serious doubts about wether those who've stuck by her side all these years will still want to be associated with her. It's like someone running a marathon who gives up when they're nearly at the finish line. It's just crappy writing, period.
You've never quit a project that you were close to? You've never thrown away something that you've desperately wanted? Realized something you loved was tainted and unbearable? That something easy was ultimately unfullfilling?
Each of her major victories demanded blood sacrifice, the Witch, the Dothraki lords, the slavers, the house of Qarth, the white walkers, The Tarlys. This might the first time she was going to not get her blood and fire.

Also yes the writing was still weak.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Wed May 15, 2019 1:58 pm

While the scale could be problematic, she didn't actually do much killing herself. She rode on her birthright and flammed scurrying vermin in the maze below.

She wasn't Jon in the carcass landfill of battle of the bastards.

Airforce Pilots, artillery men probably kill more people than infantry but the experience seems pretty disparate.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Wed May 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:53 pm
You've never quit a project that you were close to? You've never thrown away something that you've desperately wanted? Realized something you loved was tainted and unbearable? That something easy was ultimately unfullfilling?
Each of her major victories demanded blood sacrifice, the Witch, the Dothraki lords, the slavers, the house of Qarth, the white walkers, The Tarlys. This might the first time she was going to not get her blood and fire.

Also yes the writing was still weak.

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Well, nobody's perfect, are we? I still don't see any of those things warranting a full-blown snap, not in the way they've written it. Besides, with the victories, I've felt those were all within reasons of the different culture that she comes from. You look at past cultures, and history records lots of strange rituals we don't understand and likely never would. Blood sacrifice? OK. Maybe she should have waited and killed Cersei in a direct confrontation, which you know given how far she's come, would likely be more satisfying. This razing though felt like she jumped the gun so much. Either way, the writers have given us a poor reason for what she's done to try to clear up their weak writing. There are tons of better ways they could have given her that sacrifice.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Wed May 15, 2019 2:38 pm

Rumpy wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:53 pm
You've never quit a project that you were close to? You've never thrown away something that you've desperately wanted? Realized something you loved was tainted and unbearable? That something easy was ultimately unfullfilling?
Each of her major victories demanded blood sacrifice, the Witch, the Dothraki lords, the slavers, the house of Qarth, the white walkers, The Tarlys. This might the first time she was going to not get her blood and fire.

Also yes the writing was still weak.

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Well, nobody's perfect, are we? I still don't see any of those things warranting a full-blown snap, not in the way they've written it. Besides, with the victories, I've felt those were all within reasons of the different culture that she comes from. You look at past cultures, and history records lots of strange rituals we don't understand and likely never would. Blood sacrifice? OK. Maybe she should have waited and killed Cersei in a direct confrontation, which you know given how far she's come, would likely be more satisfying. This razing though felt like she jumped the gun so much. Either way, the writers have given us a poor reason for what she's done to try to clear up their weak writing. There are tons of better ways they could have given her that sacrifice.
Don't disagree with any of that. I just see it in degrees. If they hadn't focused so much on connecting her to the specific, for lack of a better word, hunting of civilians I don't think the backlash would be as great.
She has it in her to raze a city, and war is awful and lots of civilians get killed. I don't think they separated those two things well enough.
Particularly if we were able to see her process of compartmentalizing the aftermath. Humans justify some awful shit in the name of not taking responsibility for their actions.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Wed May 15, 2019 2:49 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:38 pm
Don't disagree with any of that. I just see it in degrees. If they hadn't focused so much on connecting her to the specific, for lack of a better word, hunting of civilians I don't think the backlash would be as great.
She has it in her to raze a city, and war is awful and lots of civilians get killed. I don't think they separated those two things well enough.

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Too true. Ahh yeah, maybe she should have focused Drogon on the tower and caught both Jaime and Cersei in the process... I just don't know what she thought of accomplishing by hunting all those civilians. Yeah, I do agree it wasn't separated very well.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Wed May 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Image
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Wed May 15, 2019 3:43 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:07 pm
Image
The meme game is strong for these past few eps.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Wed May 15, 2019 3:45 pm

I'm entertained.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Wed May 15, 2019 5:22 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:While the scale could be problematic, she didn't actually do much killing herself. She rode on her birthright and flammed scurrying vermin in the maze below.
That’s like saying someone shooting people didn’t actually do the killing himself.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Wed May 15, 2019 5:33 pm


Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:While the scale could be problematic, she didn't actually do much killing herself. She rode on her birthright and flammed scurrying vermin in the maze below.
That’s like saying someone shooting people didn’t actually do the killing himself.
I once listened to a twenty year old artilleryman who in any other context was a churchgoing family guy with lots of friends casually brag about the feeling of firing on targets and how if we really wanted to be effective we'd drop shells in sympathizer homes. (Granted he may have been full of shit.)Presumably, not being close enough to see their faces is different than having doing it by hand.

Disassociating yourself from horrors is basic behavior.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman » Wed May 15, 2019 6:14 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:52 am
If she was in such a rage, why did she wait for the bells?
She wasn't in that rage until AFTER the bells sounded. The way I saw it:
She leads the attack. Tyrion told her the bells mean surrender. TYRION, the guy who is in her doghouse. She's not looking forward to hearing those bells.
She smashes everything defense related, especially the scorpions, the tool that killed her dragon. This gets her bloodlust going but she's still in control of herself.
She parks and waits to see what's what. As she's sitting there she sees the Red Keep. It reminds her Cersei is still alive, still in possession of the throne. How maddening! The insolence, the hubris! And if there's a surrender Cersei will probably take the easy way out and kill herself. Now her blood is really boiling at the thought of Cersei not suffering enough.
Then the bells sound. Everyone is happy. The fighting, the death, the destruction is over! Everyone is going to stand down. But Dany is not happy.She starts thinking. The only thing the bells mean to her is that she's supposed to stop everything and put all the sacrifice and loss in the past like it doesn't matter now. Her close friends and advisers that were killed? Meh, get over it. The dragons, her children, that were killed? Get over it. The ungrateful people who treated her like she was bothering them when they knew she was their queen? No one cares. The people in this city are happy because Dany will stop fighting, not because Dany has freed them from Cersei.

THAT is when she said "Fark this" and snapped.

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