The Platform Wars (Steam, Epic, GoG, etc)

[malchior]

As far as downloading and playing games Epic is fine (we'll find out for sure in two weeks when Borderlands 3 hits), but from a feature standpoint, Epic has a lot of ground to cover... like *all* of it. It's kind of shocking they have launched and gone this long without basic features like a wishlist.

I bought my first game from Epic (Control) and I noticed that the speeds were not competitive to Steam. I can max out my pipe (~20 MB/s) from Steam. Epic maxed out at 4 MB/s. In fact, I was feeling cheeky so I fired up a Steam download at the same time and it happily tapped into the 15 MB/s available to it. This wouldn't be a big deal if they had pre-loading...but that is another feature that is missing.

I just ran a quick test on Epic, downloading For Honor which looked like the biggest thing I had that wasn't already installed and it was running around 98MB/s. I started downloading XCOM2 on steam and am seeing 83-88 MB/s.

I was grabbing it right around the time of the launch of Control so it could have been related to that. Borderland 3 will be the real test. I half expect they'll be staging that out in a cloud provider with a CDN capability. Otherwise, they will be hurting.

[morlac]

As far as downloading and playing games Epic is fine (we'll find out for sure in two weeks when Borderlands 3 hits), but from a feature standpoint, Epic has a lot of ground to cover... like *all* of it. It's kind of shocking they have launched and gone this long without basic features like a wishlist.

I bought my first game from Epic (Control) and I noticed that the speeds were not competitive to Steam. I can max out my pipe (~20 MB/s) from Steam. Epic maxed out at 4 MB/s. In fact, I was feeling cheeky so I fired up a Steam download at the same time and it happily tapped into the 15 MB/s available to it. This wouldn't be a big deal if they had pre-loading...but that is another feature that is missing.

I just ran a quick test on Epic, downloading For Honor which looked like the biggest thing I had that wasn't already installed and it was running around 98MB/s. I started downloading XCOM2 on steam and am seeing 83-88 MB/s.

I get about 15%-20% faster dloads on Epic than Steam presently. Steam is fairly inconsistent and hiccups on occasion when downloading. I may try different servers, my work buddy swears the Atlanta ones suck.

[Max Peck]

Epic seems to have paid $10.5 million for Control’s PC exclusivity

At this point, we know Epic is committed to paying a lot of money for exclusive games to attract players to its Epic Games Store. Now, we seem to know how much it paid up front for at least one of those exclusives: €9.49 million (about $10.45 million at today's exchange rates).

The EGS exclusive in question is Remedy and 505 Games' supernatural shooter Control, and the number in question comes buried in an Italian earnings report from 505 Games parent company Digital Bros. (as noticed by analyst Daniel Ahmad). That figure is listed in two tables in the document, corresponding to total revenue from Control and total revenue from the Epic Games Store, both for the period ending June 30, 2019.

"Revenue come(s) from the computer version of Control," the report reads, according to a rough translation of a portion of the document. "The game was released on August 27 but the structure of the marketplace who requested the PC exclusivity has made possible to gain the revenue starting from this quarter."

Back in July, Ooblets developer Glumberland revealed via blog post that the money it received up front from Epic represented "a minimum guarantee on sales that would match what we’d be wanting to earn if we were just selling Ooblets across all the stores." Epic's Sergei Galyonkin has also said that Epic's exclusivity deals tend to be structured as minimum guarantees against future sales.

Assuming Digital Bros. got a similar deal, that means the publisher won't make any additional money from Epic Games Store sales of Control until it earns back the €9.49 million upfront payment. For context, at $60 per sale and Epic's standard 88% revenue share, Control would have to sell roughly 200,000 PC copies for Digital Bros. to meet that minimum (or more if the average sales price comes down due to discounts). Guaranteeing that revenue up front, though, helps Digital Bros. avoid uncertainty in its balance sheet and, in turn, helps Epic bring in new customers to its growing storefront.

[Lorini]

That's not going to last. They are pretty desperate.

[morlac]

That's not going to last. They are pretty desperate.

How is this desperate? This isn't a desperate reaction to a failed plan, It's their business model. It's a calculated risk/investment based on their belief a game will sell a certain amount and they earn it back + some. It also works to drive customers to their platform. Even if it lost a million they may have gained enough new customers to make it worth it in the long run. People may not like the exclusiveness but It's a brilliant strategy and pretty much the only way to challenge Steam.

[Max Peck]

If that analysis is correct, Epic is just paying an advance on projected sales and keeps all revenue until they recoup the advance. That being the case, an exclusivity deal costs them nothing in the long term unless the title underperforms. Given how much revenue they have coming in from Fortnite alone ($2.4 billion in 2018) they can probably keep this going for as long as they wish.

[Blackhawk]

And lots of businesses are willing to operate at a short-term loss if it wins them the market.

[hitbyambulance]

i am very interested in the 4Q 2019 shenanigans we shall be seeing from all storefronts

[Lorini]

And lots of businesses are willing to operate at a short-term loss if it wins them the market.

Do you think they’ll win this market?

[Blackhawk]

And lots of businesses are willing to operate at a short-term loss if it wins them the market.

Do you think they’ll win this market?

I think they'll win the market they're after, provided they keep the short-term losses under control, and I think what they're after is to be competitive with Steam, not to unseat them. Nobody else is really competitive with Steam.

[morlac]

Exactly, they don't need to "win" the market to be successful. They have a different approach than Steam. Title to thread is misleading as Steam is the only "platform" among these. The rest, and Epic especially are just a store fronts. I'd say based on Borderlands 3 sales they are going to do just fine. I'm sure that exclusive cost more than 10 mil but I'm pretty sure they made whatever it was back already.

[Blackhawk]

I also expect that once Epic has become genuinely competitive with Steam (IE - they have a good sized library, a huge user base, and are full-featured), we'll see a lot fewer exclusives. They simply won't be necessary anymore.

What we'll see then is Steam having to take steps to draw back customers, take steps to attract developers, and all the other stuff that you get in a real marketplace.

[Blackhawk]

At least I hope so. I'm not an analyst. It's possible that Epic will win and become the Monsanto of gaming, hated by one and all. I prefer to remain optimistic (but keep my eyes open.)

[coopasonic]

It will take years for Epic to become feature-competitive with steam and they will need to keep up the exclusives until they are. The best possibility of all of this is that it really ought to drive Steam to get the hell off their proverbial laurels.

[Lorini]

I also expect that once Epic has become genuinely competitive with Steam (IE - they have a good sized library, a huge user base, and are full-featured), we'll see a lot fewer exclusives. They simply won't be necessary anymore.

What we'll see then is Steam having to take steps to draw back customers, take steps to attract developers, and all the other stuff that you get in a real marketplace.

Have they promised anymore features for players? They not offering reviews is a show stopper for me.

[Rumpy]

The thing I don't like about them is that they seem to operate more like a console platform, buying up exclusives as if they were first-party and disallowing any of them from appearing on other stores while the other two, Steam and GOG all have releases appearing on both stores, ie they're not store specific . In the long-term, I don't think this model is sustainable or even healthy for the industry. All it does is cause division among the PC Crowd when there shouldn't even technically be any division seeing as the PC has always been more of an open platform.

[coopasonic]

I also expect that once Epic has become genuinely competitive with Steam (IE - they have a good sized library, a huge user base, and are full-featured), we'll see a lot fewer exclusives. They simply won't be necessary anymore.

What we'll see then is Steam having to take steps to draw back customers, take steps to attract developers, and all the other stuff that you get in a real marketplace.

Have they promised anymore features for players? They not offering reviews is a show stopper for me.

They have a publicly viewable roadmap.

https://trello.com/b/GXLc34hk/epic-games-store-roadmap

User Reviews is on the "later" list.

[Blackhawk]

In the long-term, I don't think this model is sustainable or even healthy for the industry.

They've said outright that they don't intend for it to be long-term. It is their strategy for breaking into Steam's space. Whether that ends up remaining true, who knows.

The lack of reviews doesn't bother me too much. Steam reviews are about the most useless thing out there. Too many paid reviews, too many 'reviews' of politics or social positions rather than games (strong female protagonist? Negative reviews.) I've gotten used to doing my research elsewhere after something catches my eye there.

[Jaymon]

The reason I don't like Epic has nothing to do with their exclusives, or their storefront.

I don't like Epic because they make all their money from fortnite which I loath and detest.

[Lorini]

I also expect that once Epic has become genuinely competitive with Steam (IE - they have a good sized library, a huge user base, and are full-featured), we'll see a lot fewer exclusives. They simply won't be necessary anymore.

What we'll see then is Steam having to take steps to draw back customers, take steps to attract developers, and all the other stuff that you get in a real marketplace.

Have they promised anymore features for players? They not offering reviews is a show stopper for me.

They have a publicly viewable roadmap.

https://trello.com/b/GXLc34hk/epic-games-store-roadmap

User Reviews is on the "later" list.

Thanks.

[Rumpy]

In the long-term, I don't think this model is sustainable or even healthy for the industry.

They've said outright that they don't intend for it to be long-term. It is their strategy for breaking into Steam's space. Whether that ends up remaining true, who knows.

Ok, hypothetically, let's say Valve goes and announces tomorrow a better cut for developers. Will Epic then decide to stop their current practice? I somehow doubt it since it's deeply ingrained. I have a feeling they'll keep doing it because they know they can.

[Blackhawk]

In the long-term, I don't think this model is sustainable or even healthy for the industry.

They've said outright that they don't intend for it to be long-term. It is their strategy for breaking into Steam's space. Whether that ends up remaining true, who knows.

Ok, hypothetically, let's say Valve goes and announces tomorrow a better cut for developers. Will Epic then decide to stop their current practice? I somehow doubt it since it's deeply ingrained. I have a feeling they'll keep doing it because they know they can.

I never said that their crusade was just for developers' rights, but for a competitive market share. So probably not.

Will they ever? Who knows? I've mentioned their claims, that it is temporary until they're competitive. If the idea is true that they are taking big risks, potentially losing millions with each exclusive, or even accepting a loss, then probably not.

I'm not an Epic fan. I don't dislike them, either. I'm pretty Epic neutral. I usually find myself defending them for some reason, though, because I find so many of the knee-jerk reactions against them to be silly and unfounded.

[morlac]

The reason I don't like Epic has nothing to do with their exclusives, or their storefront.

I don't like Epic because they make all their money from fortnite which I loath and detest.

Well good news then, they are now making money by selling games

[Rumpy]

In the long-term, I don't think this model is sustainable or even healthy for the industry.

They've said outright that they don't intend for it to be long-term. It is their strategy for breaking into Steam's space. Whether that ends up remaining true, who knows.

Ok, hypothetically, let's say Valve goes and announces tomorrow a better cut for developers. Will Epic then decide to stop their current practice? I somehow doubt it since it's deeply ingrained. I have a feeling they'll keep doing it because they know they can.

I never said that their crusade was just for developers' rights, but for a competitive market share. So probably not.

No, you didn't. But I think it's pretty well understood at this point that the two are linked. Being competitive would also mean upping the game with better dev cuts. By buying up exclusives, Epic is hoping to force Valve's hand to have better dev cuts and therefore be more competitive. And it seems to me that Epic is willing to do this for as long as it takes. That's my take.

[Lorini]

I think Valve is saying to devs that Steam offers way more looks at their games and they have a much higher chance of sales on Steam vs Epic. And even if Epic takes less money, smart devs will also consider if they are losing sales by going exclusive with the Epic store. I think as long as Epic doesn't insist on exclusivity it's a no brainer to go on Epic or any other store really, but if they can't sell their game on Steam, a dev is giving up something to get something and have to decide if that's worth it.

[Rumpy]

I think Valve is saying to devs that Steam offers way more looks at their games and they have a much higher chance of sales on Steam vs Epic. And even if Epic takes less money, smart devs will also consider if they are losing sales by going exclusive with the Epic store.

Exactly. And it's already sort of happened. There was a dev that was recently approached about putting their game on the Epic Store, and he asked them if it would mean exclusivity or if he'd have the option of also selling it elsewhere. They told him that it was exclusive, and he backed down, realizing that as a smaller developer, he'd rather have more options available. More money isn't always immediately the best option if it means less views. For an already established dev studio like Remedy, these things likely don't have much impact, but to a small indie dev it could alter their potential growth.

[Smoove_B]

Just saw this over on Blues:



(it's a coffee cup that has an EA logo with steam rising out of it...)

It would be interesting is EA is indeed returning to STEAM - especially if they're going to add updated/remastered titles.

[Smoove_B]

As suspected, it's official:

REDWOOD CITY, Calif. & BELLEVUE, Wash.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Today, Electronic Arts Inc. (NASDAQ: EA) and Valve announced a partnership to put EA games into the hands of players on Steam. EA Access will launch on Steam next spring, giving players another place to subscribe to a great collection of EA games and member benefits on PC. The first new EA game launching on Steam will arrive on November 15, when the eagerly anticipated title, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order™, debuts worldwide. Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order is available to pre-order on Steam beginning today.

Future plans:

In the coming months, players on Steam will be able to play other games such as The Sims™ 4 and Unravel™ 2. Multiplayer games like Apex Legends™, FIFA 20 and Battlefield™ V will become available next year, and players on Origin and Steam will have the ability to play together.

[Blackhawk]

I wonder how many titles they'll add from the last decade during the Origin era. Will they eventually migrate the whole catalog over? And will games we own on Origin already be in our Steam libraries?

[Rumpy]

One big question that's arisen over this is, "Does this mean Origin hasn't been as successful as they'd hoped?" Sounds like they're realizing that maybe they're stronger allied with Steam.

[malchior]

It's interesting to note that Steam must have cut EA an heck of a deal. I don't think the storyline is that Origin wasn't working out. I mean it wasn't knocking anyone's socks off but more like a minor factor versus a major. I think you have to look broader. It sure as heck seems that Valve has made several strategic errors that have put them in an ugly position. They tried getting into hardware and it failed. They tried VR and have had limited success. Crucially, they essentially stopped making games despite sitting on huge IPs.

Contrast that to Epic/Fortnite which has a massive war chest and continuing to print money. It appears that Epic saw the opportunity to use that to steal big exclusives out from under Valve and cut into Valve's cash flow. If that is true, it follows that very likely Valve needed EA more than EA needed Steam. To be fair, Steam is a more advanced platform so that easily could have factored into EA's decision. EA likely also saw this and made them an offer that Valve couldn't afford to refuse.

[Smoove_B]

That sounds about right. I can't imagine they're going to advertise a better cut, but it certainly looks that way. I always figured these 3rd party platforms were nuts trying to figure it all out. It's one thing that they get to keep the money, but now they need to deal with client maintenance, storage space, forums, security and whatever else I'm not thinking of. I would be really surprised to learn getting a bigger cut is worth the headaches Valve is shielding you from.

[hitbyambulance]

And will games we own on Origin already be in our Steam libraries?

that part, while it would be appreciated, seems to be extremely unlikely

[Rumpy]

It's interesting to note that Steam must have cut EA an heck of a deal. I don't think the storyline is that Origin wasn't working out. I mean it wasn't knocking anyone's socks off but more like a minor factor versus a major. I think you have to look broader. It sure as heck seems that Valve has made several strategic errors that have put them in an ugly position. They tried getting into hardware and it failed. They tried VR and have had limited success. Crucially, they essentially stopped making games despite sitting on huge IPs.

Fair enough. That's a good assessment. Either way, it seems both will likely benefit.

[Smoove_B]

I know we've had this conversation before, but I hadn't realized just how scummy G2A is.

Not sure if it's the best place to report it, but it seems like it might. G2A caught with stolen keys:

Last year, G2A—a supremely suspect grey market seller of PC games—offered to pay studios 10x the cost of their games if it was found to be selling stolen keys. Only one company took them up on the offer, and whaddya know, it turns out G2A was selling a bunch of stolen keys.

Factorio creators Wube Software were the sole developers going to the effort of working with G2A over this, and while the two companies were originally going to work with a professional third party auditor like Deloitte or Ernst & Young, in the end G2A decided to simply perform the investigation themselves.

In a blog post called “Keeping Our Promise”, G2A say that of the 321 keys Wube reported as having been stolen, their internal investigation revealed that 198 had then been sold by G2A. As a result of this, G2A is now paying Wube $39,600, or “ten times the value of any bank-initiated refund costs that Factorio paid in relation to each of the 198 illegitimate keys sold via its Marketplace.”

[morlac]

Bound to happen at any pawn shop. At least they backed it up and paid I guess.

[hitbyambulance]

of course they immediately dropped their 'ten times the amount in reimbursement' after they were called out.

[hitbyambulance]

now here's a problem i've never had with Steam, GOG or any other service - emails from epicgames with the security codes to login are no longer arriving in my email.... so i can't log in at all or play anything there. they were fine all up to Thursday - then it was Friday and no more. i have a helpdesk service request in, but i expect i won't hear anything until Monday.

[Freyland]

now here's a problem i've never had with Steam, GOG or any other service - emails from epicgames with the security codes to login are no longer arriving in my email.... so i can't log in at all or play anything there. they were fine all up to Thursday - then it was Friday and no more. i have a helpdesk service request in, but i expect i won't hear anything until Monday.

"We're sorry, all employees are too busy sorting through the personal data of all the new customers who signed up for the free Total War game. We attempt to assist you as soon as possible. "

[hitbyambulance]

it gets better. tech support says, 'in order to validate your identity for troubleshooting, please use the following link'... which is the same login link... where i still don't get the security code for validation.