Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:19 pm
Made it to level 24 as Moze, having a blast - just got to swamp land (or whatever it's called). For no discernible reason, I figured what the hell - let me try the Siren before I get much further. I'm about to hit level 10 with her and make it to the Sanctuary. She's a lot better than I thought she'd be. Feels like she hits kinda hard but isn't as soft as FL4K or Zane did (to me). I played FL4K to level 14 and Zane to level 10-ish. I still think Moze's Iron Bear is the best power of all, but Amara is (I think) my second favorite character to play (so far). I've never jumped between all 4 characters this much for a Borderlands game. I have 37 hours (in a row?) of play time and I don't think Moze is at the 1/2 way point of the game yet. Pretty impressive in terms of content.
It's funny how different people approach things. I rarely used Iron Bear - it was basically my escape hatch if I was about to die.
Which beast and path did you take with FL4K? I used Broodless and the orange path and felt much more powerful than Moze.
stessier wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:07 amIt's funny how different people approach things. I rarely used Iron Bear - it was basically my escape hatch if I was about to die.
That's exactly how I use it - or if I'm getting swarmed by elite / badass enemies at a checkpoint area. So much fun to just jump in and tear through everything.
Which beast and path did you take with FL4K? I used Broodless and the orange path and felt much more powerful than Moze.
I had taken the Spiderant for the health regeneration and focused mainly in the Hunter tree. I did respec a few times in trying to play different ways with him, but I just couldn't get it to work. Running around and fighting wasn't really the issue. It was when I'd encounter badass or elite creatures - particularly more than one. FL4K (and Zane) didn't feel to me like they were doing anything to elites. Both Amara and Moze punch through both rather quickly. I was dying repeatedly fighting story bosses or checkpoint bosses while playing FL4K. I never die as Moze and I think I only died once as Amara (trying to fight a Hammerlock hunt monster).
It really could be a build issue for me, combined with my play style. I can say that the Legendary drops have also been a game changer. The one gun that continues to deliver the goods is the "Nighthawkin" SMG. I don't know exactly why but it just rips through everything, long after it's been outleveled by enemies. There was a Jacobs legendary I found for Moze that also worked great for a long time - it sent ice ricochets off when I'd critical hit so anytime there were mobs, it was ice for everyone - absolutely fantastic. I believe Amara has an actual ability in the tree I'm focused on that randomly has that as an effect, so I'm really looking forward to getting there.
Oh, one thing on Amara that I've found helpful... If you aren't spec'ing in the green tree, consider putting 5 points in it anyway. I went with the 1st tier health regen ability. The rest of my focus is in the orange elemental tree. But this allows me to actually swap my ability effect from fire to corrosive. That can be very handy in certain places. (Oh. And I guess if you are spec'ing green, consider putting 5pts in the orange tree. )
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Yes, I'm completely in the Orange tree and just put my first point into the Health Regen ability in green. I was using the Force Ghost power (that shoots out a wave of hurt), but it seemed rather limited and didn't have the greatest range. I've since switched to Force Fist (or whatever it's called).
The Night Hawkin is great. It's accurate and fast, and has extremely high damage for an elemental gun. Usually elemental guns trade off the bonus elemental damage with reduced regular damage, but the Night Hawkin doesn't, or at least doesn't do so as much. Also, keep your eye out for the following: Hellshock, Lob, and anything with the word 'Call' at the end of it. They're amazing on any character once you figure out how they're used.
And for shields, I always, always look for a Transformer. They're, in my opinion, the best shields in the game.
For FL4K, I found that the AI for the beast wasn't up to having them fight effectively unless you put all sorts of points into skills that boosted them. So I went with the Jabber, which keeps the pet at range and provides a little bit of added damage and distraction. When something tough comes along I'll use the attack command (he switches to rockets), but mostly I just ignore him. The one skill I did take is the one that gives him the ability to revive me in combat. Since he's ranged he's usually alive and near me, so it has saved my ass countless times.
I've played Moze both ways. I had one build that was all about high elemental damage and all the points were there to make Moze a badass. Iron Bear was just there as an escape if things got hairy. My last build, on the other hand, gave Iron Bear a very short cooldown and a very long uptime, boosted his damage way, way up, and made him really tough. The trade-off was that Moze was fairly weak, damage-wise, when on foot.
One symetry trick to look at with Moze, almost any build:
~Transformer shield (high capacity, shock damage restores shields instead of damaging you)
~Deathless relic (Reduces character health to 1. Increases shield capacity by 100%. Increases shield recharge rate by 25%, decreases recharge delay by 25%. ) [These two alone give you a shield+health pool that is much larger than it would be with a regular shield and lots of health. Significantly larger.]
And the following skills:
~Armored Infantry (gives increased damage and personal damage reduction when your shields are active - which is 100% of the time.)
~Thin Red Line (reduces your max health by 60%, increases your shields by 60 %. As your health is already locked at 1, the downside is neutralized, and this is just a 60% shield increase on top of the 100% from the Deathless relic)
~Vladoff Ingenuity (+30% shield)
~Desperate Measures (increases your gun damage based on how low your health is. Note: Your health is locked at 1, giving you a constant 50% damage increase across the board!)
So, short version: You have constant 13% damage reduction, +65% gun damage. You have 1 health, but +190% shield capacity (you can take probably twice as much damage as max health + regular shield), extra fast recharge, and shock heals you.
Shock heals you means that anything that does shock damage. That means that shock enemies can't hurt you. It means that damaging a shock barrel and standing next to it makes you invulnerable. It means that guns like Kill-o-Wisp or a shock Devil's Foursome become instant healing. Just shoot the ground until you're full again.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:45 am
Also, keep your eye out for the following: Hellshock, Lob, and anything with the word 'Call' at the end of it. They're amazing on any character once you figure out how they're used.
Yes, yes, a 1000x yes!
I was working through all those legendaries I got and one of the last ones was a Hellshock. I'm not much into Maliwan because I like to point and shoot, not point/charge/shoot. But I was having fun and decided to try it before selling it off - holy cow! The stopping power of the thing was a amazing. It was fire/shock so activating the machine was a breeze as I could melt COV and then flip over to shock to take out the guardians. The hardest part was making sure I didn't run out of ammo!
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:45 am
Also, keep your eye out for the following: Hellshock, Lob, and anything with the word 'Call' at the end of it. They're amazing on any character once you figure out how they're used.
Yes, yes, a 1000x yes!
I was working through all those legendaries I got and one of the last ones was a Hellshock. I'm not much into Maliwan because I like to point and shoot, not point/charge/shoot. But I was having fun and decided to try it before selling it off - holy cow! The stopping power of the thing was a amazing. It was fire/shock so activating the machine was a breeze as I could melt COV and then flip over to shock to take out the guardians. The hardest part was making sure I didn't run out of ammo!
Tip: (Not necessarily for the Guardians, of course.) The ricochet on the Hellshock is the non-selected element. Leave it on fire. If you come up against an enemy with meaningful shields, just shoot the ground in front of their feet. The ricochet will be shock and will drop their shields. Then just lift your aim and you'll be hitting them with fire, no need to charge, no need to switch modes.
Wait - you can have more than one equipped skill?? How do you get ones in boxes beside the first??
Oh wait - I used Gamma Burst but put all of my points into the Hunter tree. Is that the problem? I need to find Action Skill Augments, right?
I only have one skill equipped (Fade Away, in a hexagon.) The diamond is my pet (gunslinger jabber), and the two chevrons are augments. You get the augments by working your way down the tree. When you unlock a row, any augments or variant skills (gunslinger jabber vs regular jabber) are automatically unlocked, no points needed.
/edit - reading failure. Yeah, if you're using the skill from a tree other than what you invested in, you won't get many things that boost that skill, including augments. With the current level cap it is possible to reach the capstone (final ability) on two different trees at once, which is crazy powerful.
Last edited by Blackhawk on Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wait - you can have more than one equipped skill?? How do you get ones in boxes beside the first??
Oh wait - I used Gamma Burst but put all of my points into the Hunter tree. Is that the problem? I need to find Action Skill Augments, right?
I only have one skill equipped (Fade Away, in a hexagon.) The diamond is my pet (gunslinger jabber), and the two chevrons are augments. You get the augments by working your way down the tree. When you unlock a row, any augments or variant skills (gunslinger jabber vs regular jabber) are automatically unlocked, no points needed.
Right, but I was unlocking Hunter augments but had equipped Gamma Burst - so they wouldn't apply, right?
I've started Amara and just got to Pandora at Level 9. It might just be the guns I've been getting (got my first Maliwan at Level 8), but she is much squishier than either Moze or FL4K and I've had to be much more careful so far rather than running in guns blazing.
My Moze build is all about splash damage. Grenades, rockets, grenade launchers, guns with splash damage. It's just so much fun just creating huge explosions everywhere.
FL4K is a gamma burst skag build for me - I tried the Fade Away crit thing and it requires too much aiming for my poor skill set. So lots of letting the pet tank for me while I shoot from a safe distance. Gives me a chance to play with sniper rifles.
Zane is a Hitman build I found somewhere. Gives up grenades in favor of both his clone and his drone. All about doing damage while you're moving, never really stopping.
Amara I'm playing as a melee smash build. She's been the one I've found to be the hardest in general, although getting in close and smashing badasses is actually easier than trying to gun them down sometimes.
Being an alt-aholic, I get to play 4 completely separate style characters. Of course, I'm playing them parallel, which means I'm very slow getting through the story, but I'm getting a nice variety while I do it.
Is anyone else still playing the Science game? I'm up to Level 10 against Ellie.
My Amara playthrough is rough. I'm running through it the same way I did with FL4K (minimal side missions), but I'm just not getting the drops. When legendaries do drop, they are grenades or class mods for the trees I'm not using. I'm still doing okay - just took out Katagawa at Level 17 - but I feel the need to tactically hide or retreat most of the time. Hopefully things will change when I get to the Jacobs' house.
I've got a bunch of legendary weapons in the ~20 range. Let me know if you want one to help you over this "hump". I just had to sell a bunch of legendaries because my bank was full.
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Likewise. I've got one or two mule characters just for level 20-30 legendaries. I'm happy to share.
Amara is a little more tactical than some of the other classes, and is dependent on her skills. But when it all works together it works beautifully.
Here's some Mayhem 2 with my Amara that shows how the phaselock works with the skill that shares it with nearby enemies combined with the one that shares damage between all linked enemies and the one that adds extra elements to elemental damage. And a Lob. The crowd control with this build is crazy. You don't die when nobody can shoot at you!
Does anyone know if the level effects the drops. I am playing with my son and we have just cleared the 1st vault and drops are rubbish, we are playing on easier could this be why, not getting a lot of anything so far. We are really enjoying it but getting poor drops all the time is a tad disappointing
Reemul wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 6:39 am
Does anyone know if the level effects the drops. I am playing with my son and we have just cleared the 1st vault and drops are rubbish, we are playing on easier could this be why, not getting a lot of anything so far. We are really enjoying it but getting poor drops all the time is a tad disappointing
Your level effects the level of the drops, but not the quality (as far as I know). So Level 20 will see the same ratio of orange/purple/blue/green as Level 10 the only difference is Level 20 drops will have levels around 20 while level 10 will have drops around Level 10.
And yeah, it seems like something has changed to degrade drops A LOT. I'm getting whites from Badasses. I'm almost through Eden-6 and have only seen 1 legendary, 3 purple, and 10 blues.
They recently ended a long running event that was pumping up the drop rates.
The truth is that nobody quite knows exactly how their drop system works. Here's what is usually believed to be true:
Level determines the level of the drops of all types . Drops also seem to increase in number as you advance. TVHM (second playthrough) seems have an effect as well.
There does seem to be a level based increase as to rarity, but you reach 'normal' pretty early. I figure it is there to create a loot progression early on.
Luck (the stat) seems to affect the rarity of the items dropped.
And then there is Mayhem Mode that adds further modifiers.
And keep in mind that this is a Looter Shooter. 99% of what you find is supposed to be useless to you. I probably leave half of everything that drops on the ground, only taking what sells above a certain threshold to prevent having to backtrack to the shop all the time. If I go through a zone and upgrade one or two items I'm doing well.
I play Amara where phase locking is a large part of her attack/survivability. This becomes a problem when I run up against bosses who can't be locked. Getting repeatedly squished is a bummer.
I am finding lately that level difference +/- is probably the biggest factor in difficulty. Playing as FLAK I was doing all of the side quests early on and so was +2 or more levels for a good portion of time and I was just crushing everything. I started another play through with Zane just to mix things up and I did zero side quests and difficulty ranged from challenging to impossible. I hit the Katagawa Ball fight at level 16, the boss is level 18 and I died instantly after the cut scene dropped. I mean like the split second I had control of my character I was dead, and then twice more both times one-shotted by the boss. With FLAK I was level 20 or maybe even 21 at that point and the fight was challenging in the sense I had to move to avoid being hit and I may have lost shields once or twice but my health never really dipped. At another point in the game, on either Zane or Moze I was doing one of the larger battles on Athenas in the monastery right on level and there were A LOT Of enemies so the fight was again, challenging, I leveled up mid fight and immediately started one shotting everything.
IMHO even level with enemies = challenging fun, +1 level with enemies= still fun but less challenging, 2+ level and it's just a cakewalk. On the flip side -1 levels = still fun but expect to need second wind more often, -2 not fun and some bosses may be unbeatable unless your a masochist for repeating deaths.
"Don't touch my stuff when I'm dead...it's booytrapped!" - Bender Bending Rodriguez
Equipment also plays a huge role. Go into a boss fight with the wrong items and you can be in for a very hard time. The first time I did Katagawa ball fight I had just found a Cloning Hex, a homing damage-over-time shock grenade. I didn't even have to shoot the boss - the grenade killed him in two or three throws. The first time I fought Spoilerboss*, though, I didn't have anything to eat through his armor and shields and it took forever, including multiple deaths.
*Spoilerboss isn't a boss, but Spoilerboss is a spoiler.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 11:27 am
Equipment also plays a huge role.
Yeah. I took Moze through Katagawa at Level like 25 and obviously a breeze. FL4K hit is around Level 16 and also breezed through because I had the perfect guns. Amara hit it at Level 17 and it was constantly a battle to stay alive long enough to get a shot off and when I did, it was like throwing bottle caps against a brick wall.
In other news, I stink at aiming. I've tried Marcus' shooting range maybe 20 times and never got more than 12. I think I'm trying to be too precise. I need to get a COV gun and just light it up.
I just got a lvl 22 rocket launcher that does 26 shots before breaking and needing to re ammo up. It does 1000 damage per shot and is just steam rolling stuff, i love it. I am at the mansion.
Tao wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 11:12 am
I am finding lately that level difference +/- is probably the biggest factor in difficulty. Playing as FLAK I was doing all of the side quests early on and so was +2 or more levels for a good portion of time and I was just crushing everything. I started another play through with Zane just to mix things up and I did zero side quests and difficulty ranged from challenging to impossible. I hit the Katagawa Ball fight at level 16, the boss is level 18 and I died instantly after the cut scene dropped. I mean like the split second I had control of my character I was dead, and then twice more both times one-shotted by the boss. With FLAK I was level 20 or maybe even 21 at that point and the fight was challenging in the sense I had to move to avoid being hit and I may have lost shields once or twice but my health never really dipped. At another point in the game, on either Zane or Moze I was doing one of the larger battles on Athenas in the monastery right on level and there were A LOT Of enemies so the fight was again, challenging, I leveled up mid fight and immediately started one shotting everything.
IMHO even level with enemies = challenging fun, +1 level with enemies= still fun but less challenging, 2+ level and it's just a cakewalk. On the flip side -1 levels = still fun but expect to need second wind more often, -2 not fun and some bosses may be unbeatable unless your a masochist for repeating deaths.
Levels are very important with this game, unlike regular RPG's. As you found out a one level difference is a big difference and a two level difference is huge. You really need to stay even in levels to maximize the fun and reasonable challenge.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:45 am
I've played Moze both ways. I had one build that was all about high elemental damage and all the points were there to make Moze a badass. Iron Bear was just there as an escape if things got hairy. My last build, on the other hand, gave Iron Bear a very short cooldown and a very long uptime, boosted his damage way, way up, and made him really tough. The trade-off was that Moze was fairly weak, damage-wise, when on foot.
One symetry trick to look at with Moze, almost any build:
~Transformer shield (high capacity, shock damage restores shields instead of damaging you)
~Deathless relic (Reduces character health to 1. Increases shield capacity by 100%. Increases shield recharge rate by 25%, decreases recharge delay by 25%. ) [These two alone give you a shield+health pool that is much larger than it would be with a regular shield and lots of health. Significantly larger.]
And the following skills:
~Armored Infantry (gives increased damage and personal damage reduction when your shields are active - which is 100% of the time.)
~Thin Red Line (reduces your max health by 60%, increases your shields by 60 %. As your health is already locked at 1, the downside is neutralized, and this is just a 60% shield increase on top of the 100% from the Deathless relic)
~Vladoff Ingenuity (+30% shield)
~Desperate Measures (increases your gun damage based on how low your health is. Note: Your health is locked at 1, giving you a constant 50% damage increase across the board!)
So, short version: You have constant 13% damage reduction, +65% gun damage. You have 1 health, but +190% shield capacity (you can take probably twice as much damage as max health + regular shield), extra fast recharge, and shock heals you.
Shock heals you means that anything that does shock damage. That means that shock enemies can't hurt you. It means that damaging a shock barrel and standing next to it makes you invulnerable. It means that guns like Kill-o-Wisp or a shock Devil's Foursome become instant healing. Just shoot the ground until you're full again.
Excellent advice on Moze but I'll add a few things:
1) An Iron Bear Moze is great on the first and second playthrough up to level 57. I found IB to be great and used it all the time. However, once you start going up Mayhem levels, IB sadly, becomes useless, even with the buffs it got most recently. The problem is that while Mayhem difficulty is offset by Guardian ranks and better weapons/shields, IB remains relatively static. He gets no additional defense or offense for the most part. Hence he can't kill and he can't stay alive. Once you start playing Mayhem levels, you need to respec Moze into a non-IB build.
2) While your advice is excellent you ignored something very important - choice of class mod. For example I am using the Bloodletter COM with the Deathless artifact. This allows all health healing to instead recharge my shield. This pairs very nicely with the Deathless artifact that convert all but one health into your shield. Moze's health increase abilities now all recharge her shield along with her shield recharge abilities. There are other good choices (Bear Trooper for Iron Bear, Blastmaster for a more offensive build, etc). But the COM is very important because it needs to synergize with the rest of your build.
3) The Deathless artifact is great except for one thing - you lose the benefit of "health gating". In Borderlands series, the developer have set it so that as long as your health is over 50%, you cannot be killed in one shot. This was to make boss fights more tolerable because so many of them can one shot you. Any shot that would kill you will instead reduce your health dramatically. However, if use the Deathless artifact, you give up that benefit. So it is a trade off - overall you are more resilient because your shield is so strong and it is easier to recharge it but you are more vulnerable to being one shot, especially at Mayhem levels. So you need to be aware of this if you go the Deathless route.
But overall, you gave great advice.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
I haven't played Moze for a while, and that was limited to Mayhem 2 in the old system.
I actually do use the Bloodletter, and there were other elements I left out. I was trying to keep the tip relatively light rather than offering a full build/equipment list. It was meant as more of a starter to get people pointed in a good direction and to demonstrate how equipment and skills can synergize in ways that turn dull, weak skills and items with non-obvious benefits ("stuck at one health? Why would I ever take that?") into incredibly powerful combinations.
Just respec'd to try out the Deathless. It's interesting. I've gone down a couple times when I thought my shield was still in good shape. Not really sure what happened. Either something got through the shield or it wasn't as good as I thought. Guess I need to learn to pay better attention.
Also trying a melee IB build. It's... different. I miss my rockets and nuke. And, I had no problem staying alive in IB on M2. He held is own easily. Presumably the comments meant higher Mayhem levels.
Currently I've dropped it to M1 because I'm trying to get another Yellowcake and the final cartel fight is not fun on harder levels.
One thing I've noticed is that I don't feel even remotely the same with B3 as, say, Diablo 3. In D3 I wanted to get to higher Torment levels and Greater Rift levels. So I looked up builds and tweaked. But here I don't really feel the need to push Mayhem levels. Much like in B2 I never really cared about striving for higher Overpower levels.
I'll probably play through all of the classes; and finish True Vault Hunter Mode for each. But I don't think I'll be doing much "end game grinding". In the end, the absence of Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode will probably mean a lot less time spent on B3 (that and having fewer character classes to fiddle with).
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Isgrimnur - Facebook makes you hate your friends and family. LinkedIn makes you hate you co-workers. NextDoor makes you hate your neighbors.
I think others have said it before, but I'm now around level 17 with Amara, having previously played Moze to level 24 or so. Playing Moze is like wielding a giant hammer. Quite satisfying and just plowing through everything (at least the way I was playing her). Amara is also quite deadly, but it feels more like I'm using a fighting knife. Much more precision and needing more tactical finesse to juggle opponents. Also quite satisfying, but in a very different way. I was going to jump back to Moze, but I might just keep playing Amara now. This is the first time I've ever played a game like this - running chractets in parallel through through an unfinished story. It's been interesting, that's for sure.
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