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Election integrity and the transfer of power

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malchior
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by malchior »

Frum points out some important comparisons to our peer nations. This was a Twitter thread. It was unrolled and I've recreated in a more forum friendly manner because this is important to read and understand.
No more happy talk about the "uniquely American transition of power." Trump presidency and this post-election period confirm that the US is *less* committed to democratic norms - and has *weaker* institutional safeguards for democracy - than peer wealthy democracies.
I asked a German diplomat friend to detail the safeguards against, say, a German chancellor trying to extend her tenure despite losing an election. He replied that such a thing was utterly impossible, he couldn't begin to enumerate the reasons why. And he was right of course.

Nobody wondered, "Will Gordon Brown or Theresa May leave office if defeated?" Ditto the Netherlands, New Zealand, and newer democracies like Portugal or South Korea. Democratic culture is deep, and election law is administered impartially. For all the boasting, not true in USA

Normally, inauguration day is a day of self-congratulation. This next one should be a day of self-reflection - and commitment to self-improvement. The US not only lags other democracies - it has regressed even by its own standards. Time for a new era of reform.

And reform begins with acceptance of some grim and unwanted realities.

The problems are not "on both sides."

The illiberal authoritarianism of some dean of students somewhere is not equivalent to illiberal authoritarianism by the Attorney General of the United States.

Renewal of democratic institutions in the United States should be *non*-partisan - outside the everyday work of government - but cannot be *bi*-partisan when one party is so committed to (or frightened of) the individual leading the attack on democratic institutions.
And of course it's not just Trump.

As I detail in these 3 related articles

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ty/616904/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... en/616991/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rd/617105/

even the non-Trump Republican party has committed itself to a program of minority rule.

It's hard thus to imagine that Congress can effectively conduct an investigation into Trump-era abuses by itself - since so many Republicans in Congress accepted, protected, and even connived in those abuses - and since so many Republicans in the states are now adding to the list



Now counter-question

How does "liberty" - or more exactly the democratic idea of regulating state power by impartial law - get into the hearts of men and women in the first place?

It's not innate! By nature, we prefer that our tribe dominate. The democratic idea is learned.
Learned how?

Learned by practice, and practice based upon laws and institutions.

(Remember Tocqueville's astute remarks on the importance of jury duty to self-government?)

So we have to build our institutions fair and strong to foster individual commitment to democracy

The Republican thralldom to Trump followed 20 years of undoing voting rights and civil rights. Republicans became acculturated gradually first to minority rule, then to authoritarian rule. Trump's false allegations of fraud rest on carefully nurtured prejudices.
I'm going on too long. But if anybody is still bearing with me, one last point ...
If I've had any one message in everything I've written about Trump and Trumpism since 2015 ... it's that the direct involvement of the people in elections is democracy's LAST line of defense, not its first.

Joe Biden summoned 80 million Americans to defend democracy. Great, but that massive collective undertaking only followed the internal failure of the checks and balances erected to protect democracy in the long intervals between elections. And as we saw in 2020, malign actors can corrode voting rights during those long intervals between elections 80 million people voted to eject Trump and replace him. One official at the General Services Administration has successfully defied that vote for some 2 weeks. In a more democratic culture, she'd say No. The story of the Trump years is how many like her have said Yes.

Ok the (belated) end. For now.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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At what point do the people start to take to the streets again in protest of this abuse? When do We the People step up and make some noise to save our Democracy such as it is? Do we wait until January when we are totally fucked or do we start pushing now for things to move past this nightmare?
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Well I want a pony. Somehow I don't think this will work out for either of us.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Remus West wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:13 pm At what point do the people start to take to the streets again in protest of this abuse? When do We the People step up and make some noise to save our Democracy such as it is? Do we wait until January when we are totally fucked or do we start pushing now for things to move past this nightmare?
What's crazy is that I genuinely believe the GOP members of Congress don't really dispute the election. I'm not quite as convinced about state and especially local-level politicians, but I am confident in saying that in private they all know Biden was elected.

However, they're playing with fire and thinking they'll just stay quiet and somehow reap the benefit of Trump stoking the flames of the base. But instead, they're allowing democratic norms to erode and as Holman pointed out earlier, allowing the American system to be diminished in the eyes of the world. Once again, the GOP is actively putting party before country to squeeze out short-term gains and not thinking or caring about what it's doing to the overall process and how it will impact future elections. There is real damage happening here.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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I hope the name of Emily Murphy, director of the GSA, goes down in history as the person who helped derail a democracy and who will have the blood of covid deaths on her hands.

With all the amateur legal challenges failing in the courts there is no excuse for not facilitating the transition. This is not even close to Gore v Bush. And when she’s booted on her ass after the inauguration she shouldn’t even have a job as a dog catcher.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Isgrimnur »


Spoiler:
@PalmerReport

New survey says only 12% of Americans think Trump should never concede. For reference, 6% of Americans think the moon landing was fake. This election is over, and the vast majority of Americans know it's over. The only place this election is still being "contested" is on Twitter.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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$iljanus wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:30 pm I hope the name of Emily Murphy, director of the GSA, goes down in history as the person who helped derail a democracy and who will have the blood of covid deaths on her hands.

With all the amateur legal challenges failing in the courts there is no excuse for not facilitating the transition. This is not even close to Gore v Bush. And when she’s booted on her ass after the inauguration she shouldn’t even have a job as a dog catcher.
Ditto. The craziest part is that there is no real downside to her authorizing the transition to begin. The money involved is not even a rounding error in the government's budget. If Trump were to win out in court, it's not like Biden is in because he got some transition access.

Not allowing the transition to move at full speed has major negative consequences (during a pandemic, no less).
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Emily Murphy, the Berk who Stole Christmas.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Remus West wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:13 pm At what point do the people start to take to the streets again in protest of this abuse? When do We the People step up and make some noise to save our Democracy such as it is? Do we wait until January when we are totally fucked or do we start pushing now for things to move past this nightmare?
How would taking to the streets change anything?
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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To give you an idea of how today's press conference is going.


.@RudyGiuliani says there is not more evidence of the great voter fraud scheme he alleges because the media—due to its "irrational, pathological hatred" of Trump—is not looking for this evidence.
So, about what everyone expected then.

Oh, and...ew.

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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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$iljanus wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:30 pm I hope the name of Emily Murphy, director of the GSA, goes down in history as the person who helped derail a democracy and who will have the blood of covid deaths on her hands.

With all the amateur legal challenges failing in the courts there is no excuse for not facilitating the transition. This is not even close to Gore v Bush. And when she’s booted on her ass after the inauguration she shouldn’t even have a job as a dog catcher.
I think there is legitimate reason to investigate criminality here. These people are attacking our national government in a manner that puts all of our futures at risk - and doing it without a shred of evidence.

For instance, the two Republicans on the election commission in Wayne County are now trying to rescind their vote to certify. Why? Because they said they endured hours of threats and pressure to certify. Which is horrible. They should never have had to endure that (if true). That said, they had ZERO reason to deny certification on the first vote so essentially they were pressured and bullied into doing their actual jobs based off the evidence. There should have been no controversy there and would have been none if they had just done their jobs the way they are supposed to.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Alefroth wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:54 pm
Remus West wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:13 pm At what point do the people start to take to the streets again in protest of this abuse? When do We the People step up and make some noise to save our Democracy such as it is? Do we wait until January when we are totally fucked or do we start pushing now for things to move past this nightmare?
How would taking to the streets change anything?
There aren't people taking to the streets right now because Biden is winning / has won, and Trump's efforts to overturn those results have been essentially 100% unsuccessful so far. If it looks like Trump might be able to change the outcome in one or more states - e.g., if his Wayne County stunt had worked - then we would see mass protests. And those are very capable of changing the actions of state and local officials - see e.g., the Wayne County GOP folks promptly backing down and certifying (and then reversing again under pressure from Trump), or the success of the Brooks Brothers Riot.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Jesus Christ.


Sidney Powell, Mike Flynn's lawyer now working for Trump, says the election was rigged by "communist money" and a scheme devised by the late Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuala.
This might be funny if it weren't so insanely dangerous.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Smoove_B wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:29 pmHowever, they're playing with fire and thinking they'll just stay quiet and somehow reap the benefit of Trump stoking the flames of the base. But instead, they're allowing democratic norms to erode and as Holman pointed out earlier, allowing the American system to be diminished in the eyes of the world. Once again, the GOP is actively putting party before country to squeeze out short-term gains and not thinking or caring about what it's doing to the overall process and how it will impact future elections. There is real damage happening here.
I'd argue that there is another possibility. They are afraid. I suspect some are true believers but others might just be survivors who know the math here. They are already aligned long-term with the "side that will win" and don't want to end up on the wrong side of the line. The President and at least one US Senator applied pressure to officials to try to overturn results from an election. We're far into the abyss now.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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malchior wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:45 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:29 pmHowever, they're playing with fire and thinking they'll just stay quiet and somehow reap the benefit of Trump stoking the flames of the base. But instead, they're allowing democratic norms to erode and as Holman pointed out earlier, allowing the American system to be diminished in the eyes of the world. Once again, the GOP is actively putting party before country to squeeze out short-term gains and not thinking or caring about what it's doing to the overall process and how it will impact future elections. There is real damage happening here.
I'd argue that there is another possibility. They are afraid. I suspect some are true believers but others might just be survivors who know the math here. They are already aligned long-term with the "side that will win" and don't want to end up on the wrong side of the line. The President and at least one US Senator applied pressure to officials to try to overturn results from an election. We're far into the abyss now.
I don't buy that interpretation. This (*all* of this, back to letting Trump off the hook for impeachment, at least) only works because the GOP Senate is united. If even 10% of them were legitimately afraid of these results, they could stop this mess at any time. 90%+ are just fine with what's happening.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Zaxxon wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:59 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:45 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:29 pmHowever, they're playing with fire and thinking they'll just stay quiet and somehow reap the benefit of Trump stoking the flames of the base. But instead, they're allowing democratic norms to erode and as Holman pointed out earlier, allowing the American system to be diminished in the eyes of the world. Once again, the GOP is actively putting party before country to squeeze out short-term gains and not thinking or caring about what it's doing to the overall process and how it will impact future elections. There is real damage happening here.
I'd argue that there is another possibility. They are afraid. I suspect some are true believers but others might just be survivors who know the math here. They are already aligned long-term with the "side that will win" and don't want to end up on the wrong side of the line. The President and at least one US Senator applied pressure to officials to try to overturn results from an election. We're far into the abyss now.
I don't buy that interpretation. This (*all* of this, back to letting Trump off the hook for impeachment, at least) only works because the GOP Senate is united. If even 10% of them were legitimately afraid of these results, they could stop this mess at any time. 90%+ are just fine with what's happening.
I'm not saying they aren't united. What I'm saying is I don't think they were all united on any attempt to overthrow Democracy. Trump forced them to cross the Rubicon on that. That they are staying silent is what I'm commenting on. Do we really think that 90% approve Graham pressuring the GA Secretary of State? If so, this would already be worse than it is.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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I mean it's not like it takes a scholar to see the cumulative effect here. I hear what you're saying, that perhaps the frog has been in the water too long while the temp continues to rise, but I don't see how a Senator can be not OK with it and continue silent. This is pretty clearly the most significant attack we've had on US democracy in many decades. When you're in a position to stop it (more specifically: the position to stop it) and you don't, you're OK with it.

Of course most would say they're not OK with it, but we're at the actions stage of this coup attempt; words are meaningless.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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This is okay.
A GOP member of the canvassing board in Wayne County, Mich., said President Trump called her earlier this week after she and another Republican on the board initially refused to certify election results showing President-elect Joe Biden as the winner of the presidential election.

Monica Palmer confirmed to The Washington Post that Trump called her on Tuesday night after she and William Hartmann balked at approving the election results. The two eventually relented and certified the results, but on Wednesday both Palmer and Hartmann sought to rescind their certification.

Palmer, who did not respond to multiple requests for comment from The Hill, told the Post that Trump called "to make sure I was safe."
Yeah, "hope you're safe, would hate for anything to happen...."
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Zaxxon wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:17 pm I mean it's not like it takes a scholar to see the cumulative effect here. I hear what you're saying, that perhaps the frog has been in the water too long while the temp continues to rise, but I don't see how a Senator can be not OK with it and continue silent. This is pretty clearly the most significant attack we've had on US democracy in many decades. When you're in a position to stop it (more specifically: the position to stop it) and you don't, you're OK with it.

Of course most would say they're not OK with it, but we're at the actions stage of this coup attempt; words are meaningless.
Going off into crazy conspiracy land. What if Trump saw too much and now they are worried what he will share when he's out? Actually that's probably not that crazy.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Octavious wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:29 pm
Zaxxon wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:17 pm I mean it's not like it takes a scholar to see the cumulative effect here. I hear what you're saying, that perhaps the frog has been in the water too long while the temp continues to rise, but I don't see how a Senator can be not OK with it and continue silent. This is pretty clearly the most significant attack we've had on US democracy in many decades. When you're in a position to stop it (more specifically: the position to stop it) and you don't, you're OK with it.

Of course most would say they're not OK with it, but we're at the actions stage of this coup attempt; words are meaningless.
Going off into crazy conspiracy land. What if Trump saw too much and now they are worried what he will share when he's out? Actually that's probably not that crazy.
If he saw anything of note he'd have tweeted about it.

Let me rephrase. If he understood anything of note he would have tweeted about it.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Ya you're probably right. I'm just amazed at how quickly we devolved into batshit crazy land.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Octavious wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:07 pm Ya you're probably right. I'm just amazed at how quickly we devolved into batshit crazy land.
It wasn't quick. We just reached a tipping point where it is now exposed for what it is.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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The zombie apocalypse is stealing the election!


Trump campaign attorney Sidney Powell just said that Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez rigged the 2020 election.

Hugo Chavez died in 2013.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Pyperkub wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:14 pm The zombie apocalypse is stealing the election!


Trump campaign attorney Sidney Powell just said that Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez rigged the 2020 election.

Hugo Chavez died in 2013.
My first thought after listening to her speak was I hope someone Tweets, Hugo Chavez stole Election from Trump. In reality though, it isn't what she said. Her comment was along the lines that the system that was used in the current election was created for Chavez to ensure he continued to win. So not so much that Chavez rigged the election but that the Democrats knowingly used a rigged system that they believed would work, i.e. Chavez.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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You're no fun :(

Just think about it - if Hugo could do this, then maybe the Evangelicals need to re-evaluate Socialism!
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Having finally seen the press conference it is hard to believe how idiotic these clowns are. I still don't feel severe immediate danger but it certainly is greater than no chance. Another random note - how is Giuliani still a lawyer? At what point does the bar...you know enforce professional standards?
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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I'm just catching up to the carnival sideshow from earlier today and seeing that Powell encouraged Trump-supporting militias to "retake this country". Are you fucking kidding me right now?

The GOP deserves to be erased from history at this point. I am going to repeat this - I will *never* vote for a single GOP candidate ever again, as long as I live. They cannot come back from this.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Smoove_B wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:25 pm The GOP deserves to be erased from history at this point. I am going to repeat this - I will *never* vote for a single GOP candidate ever again, as long as I live. They cannot come back from this.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Tao wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:19 pm In reality though, it isn't what she said. Her comment was along the lines that the system that was used in the current election was created for Chavez to ensure he continued to win. So not so much that Chavez rigged the election but that the Democrats knowingly used a rigged system that they believed would work, i.e. Chavez.
I was going to point out that distinction, but defending them in any way made me throw up in my mouth a little, so I decided not to.

Her argument is still batshit, but a bit less so than "Chavez did it", as it's being portrayed.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Her comments are about on the level of the boogyman, mothman and slender man conspired to steal the election.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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So the claim is that the Democrats (funded by George Soros) somehow used a system devised by Hugo Chavez to give the presidency to Joe Biden but to lose seats in the House, fail to grab the Senate, and leave state governments in GOP hands. Do I have it right?

And presumably this system actually involved flooding the system with physical ballots, since the Georgia hand-recount just confirmed the machine totals?
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Remus West wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:13 pmAt what point do the people start to take to the streets again in protest of this abuse?
The second it stops being comically pathetic and actually sticks at any point in the process. When a single legitimate vote is tossed, I think it's safe to whip out the anti-fascist banners and place a shitstorm in front of the White House.

So far, to my knowledge, absolutely nothing they've tried has actually removed one legal vote.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Pyperkub »

Holman wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:45 pm So the claim is that the Democrats (funded by George Soros) somehow used a system devised by Hugo Chavez to give the presidency to Joe Biden but to lose seats in the House, fail to grab the Senate, and leave state governments in GOP hands. Do I have it right?

And presumably this system actually involved flooding the system with physical ballots, since the Georgia hand-recount just confirmed the machine totals?
What I find interesting is that the GOP/Fox et al. have been laying the groundwork for a "The Democrats STOLE the Election!" claim for a long time, and it appears as if they are going to burn that foundation down in a year when it won't make a difference. In Court and under Oath, no less.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Holman »

Pyperkub wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:04 pm
Holman wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:45 pm So the claim is that the Democrats (funded by George Soros) somehow used a system devised by Hugo Chavez to give the presidency to Joe Biden but to lose seats in the House, fail to grab the Senate, and leave state governments in GOP hands. Do I have it right?

And presumably this system actually involved flooding the system with physical ballots, since the Georgia hand-recount just confirmed the machine totals?
What I find interesting is that the GOP/Fox et al. have been laying the groundwork for a "The Democrats STOLE the Election!" claim for a long time, and it appears as if they are going to burn that foundation down in a year when it won't make a difference. In Court and under Oath, no less.
One detail of all this is that the GOP declines to make these claims in front of a judge. None of the crazy shit they said today is part of any of the suits they've brought, which are full of much more modest claims (and even those get thrown out).

Today's show was about the delegitimizing the Biden presidency and laying down a narrative to justify complete and total obstruction for the next four years. They implied that this was also the stuff of the lawsuits, but that's just for the audience.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Holman wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:12 pm
Pyperkub wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:04 pm
Holman wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:45 pm So the claim is that the Democrats (funded by George Soros) somehow used a system devised by Hugo Chavez to give the presidency to Joe Biden but to lose seats in the House, fail to grab the Senate, and leave state governments in GOP hands. Do I have it right?

And presumably this system actually involved flooding the system with physical ballots, since the Georgia hand-recount just confirmed the machine totals?
What I find interesting is that the GOP/Fox et al. have been laying the groundwork for a "The Democrats STOLE the Election!" claim for a long time, and it appears as if they are going to burn that foundation down in a year when it won't make a difference. In Court and under Oath, no less.
One detail of all this is that the GOP declines to make these claims in front of a judge. None of the crazy shit they said today is part of any of the suits they've brought, which are full of much more modest claims (and even those get thrown out).

Today's show was about the delegitimizing the Biden presidency and laying down a narrative to justify complete and total obstruction for the next four years. They implied that this was also the stuff of the lawsuits, but that's just for the audience.
However, given the "Voter ID is necessary to prevent fraud!" claims, they keep having to admit "there is no fraud" in Court.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Kraken »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:57 am
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:52 am I think the plan is to pretend that Michigan hasn't certified their vote because of these two Wayne County nitwits (who Trump did call, btw). But of course, MI has certified the votes so it's all just another attempt to muddy the waters and make people think Biden stole something. On top of that, Biden wins even without Michigan, so it's just more sound and fury signifying nothing.
What does that do? To the extent that it's to deny Biden legitimacy among GOP voters, that's probably already been achieved. If it's to stop him from becoming president, seems like that's not going to work.
It gives the GOP justification for new voter suppression efforts going forward.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

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Skinypupy wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:18 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:15 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:44 am They apparently have a press conference at noon to specifically outline how they plan to cheat. I'm sure it will be enlightening.

Can't be optimistic about the future for one fucking second. This fucking guy, jasus.
It could be even more interesting, since the announcement of the completion of the GA recount is supposed to be happening right around the same time.
Did this happen? I rely on OO for this sort of thing.
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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power

Post by Kraken »

Paingod wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:45 pm
Remus West wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:13 pmAt what point do the people start to take to the streets again in protest of this abuse?
The second it stops being comically pathetic and actually sticks at any point in the process. When a single legitimate vote is tossed, I think it's safe to whip out the anti-fascist banners and place a shitstorm in front of the White House.

So far, to my knowledge, absolutely nothing they've tried has actually removed one legal vote.

How would we know if it's time to protest?

We suggest watching out for the following:

▪ Local election officials unilaterally discarding large numbers of votes without a court order or failing to certify the dutifully reported results.

▪ State legislators naming their own electors, citing unsubstantiated claims of rampant fraud.

▪ The Justice Department prosecuting (or threatening to prosecute) local election officials with dubious accusations of misconduct.

▪ Trump continuing to resist the peaceful transfer of power into December, even after the results have been certified.
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