Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by coopasonic »

Between the bird and odin-sense or whatever the "highlight the interesting things" action is called you should be pointed to what he actually wants. So far I think there are only 1 or 2 that I haven't figured out. Some were certainly more puzzling than others, but they are generally easier than the mushroom mysteries. :P

I've slowly been clearing all the POIs in England, but I'm ignoring the sea shanties... errr... I mean tattoo designs as I have no interest in them (seriously practically every inch of Eivor is covered in armor, what's the point in a damn tattoo?) and the parkour controls in the game kind of suck.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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Max Peck wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:52 pm
jztemple2 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:41 pm I'm getting a bit annoyed with some of these mysteries. I met a man next to a tent on the edge of the water and he needs me to bring him a beast so he can tell a good story. I kill a bear, but I can't pick it up. Same for some wolves. How am I supposed to bring him a beast? Irritating.
You need to aggro a beast and draw it back to him so that he can try to fight it. There should be some wolves nearby that will work nicely.
Again, thanks, I was just so focused on doing the killing myself :roll:

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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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coopasonic wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:54 pm and the parkour controls in the game kind of suck.
I need to disembark my longship. Let me just hop on the bench in front of me, ok now jump back to where I started. Now I'll jump on the mast, now on the rail of the ship, back to a bench... and ok I'll hop into the water.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Daehawk »

Had that happen a lot in Black Flag . In Origins for me its let go of tiller grab tiller let go of tiller grab tiller let go of the friggin tiller damnit run to front of ship away from tiller jump into water missing dock because its now way behind me.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by jztemple2 »

This AC game isn't clicking with me like Origins did, or even Odyssey which I didn't enjoy as much as I did Origins. I didn't explore all the first province but elected to proceed to England instead. It says I should have a power of at least 20 and I have one more than that so I think I'm good :D. I just think it was because Norway was pretty drab and uninteresting, few villages, few much of anything except snow and mountains. And waterfalls :roll:
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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jztemple2 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:50 pm I just think it was because Norway was pretty drab and uninteresting, few villages, few much of anything except snow and mountains. And waterfalls :roll:
Won an award, you know. Lovely crinkly edges.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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:D
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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wonderpug wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:10 am
jztemple2 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:50 pm I just think it was because Norway was pretty drab and uninteresting, few villages, few much of anything except snow and mountains. And waterfalls :roll:
Won an award, you know. Lovely crinkly edges.
:D :D as well! Nice reference.

I'm much happier now that I'm in England and there are multiple quest paths, settlement building and less climbing up vertical cliff walls.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Is there a way to look at weapon stats that are available for sale at trading posts?
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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wonderpug wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:10 am
jztemple2 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:50 pm I just think it was because Norway was pretty drab and uninteresting, few villages, few much of anything except snow and mountains. And waterfalls :roll:
Won an award, you know. Lovely crinkly edges.
Off topic, during my morning walk I started listening again to the original radio version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Finished just the first episode but I think I might go through all twelve this week.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Paradroid »

That's the best incarnation of the story in my opinion. And, happily, I've just got my kids into it too. :D
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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Victoria Raverna wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:00 am Is there a way to look at weapon stats that are available for sale at trading posts?
google?

:P
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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jztemple2 wrote:This AC game isn't clicking with me like Origins did
Me either, and I'm closing in on 30 hours. It's fun enough that I'm still playing, but I don't feel compelled to play like I did Origins/Odyssey.

For me I think it's the pacing. It's entirely possible I'm looking at the previous games with rose-colored glasses, but Valhalla seems to have more artificial gatekeeping to me. I'll follow a quest line until I get stuck at a point where I have to either grind something out (like the village level), or collect something in areas entirely too difficult for me. So I abandon questing and go run around doing collections stuff until at some point I finally open up something worth doing until the next time I get stuck, repeat. it's usually those interim periods between quests that I start to lose interest. I felt like in Origins/Odyssey I *always* had something worthwhile doing.

While I'm nitpicking:

- I hate that there are boss guys that are 90+ roaming around a Level 20 region. I like clearing regions, and there are some I simply can't because they populate it with events or bosses that are beyond the level of the region.

- I hate you can't see weapon stats or sell weapons or do any goddamn thing with your surplus inventory.

- I don't particularly like the skill tree. Yes, it's great you can respec anytime and they make it incredibly easy to respec parts of your tree. That's fantastic. But I don't like that parts of it are hidden, and I don't like that you have to hover over every icon to see what it is. I understand they want it (like everything in this game) to be this free-form, just roll with it thing, but I like some aspect of planning especially when I'm apparently going to be stuck with the same gear for the entire game.

- Upgrading stuff is a pain in the ass grind. I know the previous games had upgrading, but it never felt as arduous - and critical - as it does in this game. It would be different if the supplies were plentiful, but they're not.

Again, I think they designed this game to be this free flowing experience where you just do your thing and let stuff happen as it may. Don't worry about your skills, just play naturally and refine them as you go along. Don't worry about loot, just pick a favorite weapon and upgrade it. Don't worry about your level, just explore the world and take things as they come. That's nice on paper, I tend to hate that style of game design in practice.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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YellowKing wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:08 pm
jztemple2 wrote:This AC game isn't clicking with me like Origins did
Me either, and I'm closing in on 30 hours. It's fun enough that I'm still playing, but I don't feel compelled to play like I did Origins/Odyssey.
I've got about fifteen hours in now and I've unlocked the multiple quest paths, like upgrading the settlement, looking for the Hidden Ones and checking out the three assistants working for Soma. I'm having more fun than I had before, but the game doesn't feel as solid as Origins did.

I'm agreeing with a number of your points. The whole skill tree business seems clumsy and annoyingly pointless. Got a skill point? Spend it to get +1 Melee. Now what exactly is that? And there are so many of this tiny, iterative increases. I really preferred how Ghost Recon Breakpoint did it, where each Skill point (or at least most of them) did something tangible, not just adjusted a coefficient.

I agree, I want to sell or dismantle or something with my old inventory. I've got a number of shields, most of which I have no interest in. I guess the game wants me to hold on to them just in case I decide to swap to another of the three families of load-out. Still, I should be able to archive them or something.
YellowKing wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:08 pm Again, I think they designed this game to be this free flowing experience where you just do your thing and let stuff happen as it may. Don't worry about your skills, just play naturally and refine them as you go along. Don't worry about loot, just pick a favorite weapon and upgrade it. Don't worry about your level, just explore the world and take things as they come. That's nice on paper, I tend to hate that style of game design in practice.
The funny thing is, I feel almost compelled to go to the map and put a marker on each nearby mystery or wealth or whatever and go hunt it down. Rowed down near a new village? Check out the map, send out your bird, spot the prize points and go grab them. And because you can use Odin vision to highlight the valuable things you tend to ignore doing any random exploring. Yes, I could just ignore the map and bird and just explore, but that would be way too long a process to enjoy.
YellowKing wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:08 pm For me I think it's the pacing. It's entirely possible I'm looking at the previous games with rose-colored glasses, but Valhalla seems to have more artificial gatekeeping to me. I'll follow a quest line until I get stuck at a point where I have to either grind something out (like the village level), or collect something in areas entirely too difficult for me. So I abandon questing and go run around doing collections stuff until at some point I finally open up something worth doing until the next time I get stuck, repeat. it's usually those interim periods between quests that I start to lose interest. I felt like in Origins/Odyssey I *always* had something worthwhile doing.
This sort of describes my feelings as well. In Origins different regions also had different levels that were recommended you reach before entering them, but mostly it seemed like I would have enough stuff to do in the easier regions that by the time I was ready to go to a more difficult region I'd have already reached that level. In Valhalla I feel like those required levels needed in adjoining regions are very artificial. Example, I need stuff from monasteries to upgrade my village. Near me is a monastery, but it is in a level 90 area and I'm only at level 37, so even though I need the resources from it and it is an easy row down the river from me, it would be too hard for me to deal with. Yes, it makes sense to assume that it is a more heavily defended place and I have to be stronger to defeat it, but then why do I have a current quest that requires me to attack monasteries?

Also, most of the mysteries have seemed pointless, even silly. Steal clothes from nudist bathers? Really? I'm a blood thirsty Viking that just torched a village and you want me to go steal a box of clothing? I've pretty much decided to give up on these and just do them later on when I'm bored with questing.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Blackhawk »

Just a thought from someone who hasn't played any of the recent three: Do they use a similar enough model that it's just getting tired? I absolutely love the Far Cry series, but the last couple I played just felt blah for me. I realized that it isn't that they're inferior games, but that I've spent so much time with their systems that they aren't as much fun as when they were fresh.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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Blackhawk wrote:Just a thought from someone who hasn't played any of the recent three: Do they use a similar enough model that it's just getting tired?
That thought occurred to me. However, I decided my annoyances aren't from the formula being worn out as it is in Far Cry, but more with the tweaks they made to the formula going in the wrong direction.

Origins was a revolutionary departure from the series which kind of started the introduction of roleplaying into the game. I felt Odyssey refined and expanded this in mostly all good ways.

Valhalla seems to have tried to further refine Odyssey by introducing even more roleplaying aspects, but as noted above, they all have flaws. The "build your settlement" thing was supposed to be another revolutionary concept for the series, but instead I'm finding it just an annoying grind. The skill tree gives unprecedented customization, but it's also unwieldy with a bunch of "filler" upgrades that have little impact on gameplay. Ditching loot and having your character focus on upgrading your weapons was supposed to streamline gear, but it introduces a grind aspect that is unfun and unrewarding.

Ultimately it feels like a step back. I'm hoping the next iteration of the game doesn't toss out the new features completely, but refines them so that they're less grindy and more fun.

All that said, I'm still playing the game daily - there's nothing that has turned me off so much that I'm not enjoying myself.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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A little bit of a counterpoint, I'm around 75 hours in and still enjoying myself. The only things that have really bothered me in the game (other than the seemingly random traversal controls) are a few bugs that keep popping up.

1) Too often when raiding or doing anything with companions, when I break, open or destroy something to get to an area, the NPCs act like it is still blocked. There was also a point where my raiders wouldn't disembark... once I cleared pretty much all of the enemies, they finally decided to join me. It would have been fine if I hadn't been in the 340 region (I am around 370 now so not too terrible).

2) There was one boss fight which, firstly was in a region marked rank 90 and the ONLY thing in this area was the boss fight and the boss is 280. After a couple tries, I gave up for about 150 power levels, when I went back the boss bugged out repeatedly. It took 5 tries to until I could finish the fight without him getting stuck and unhittable in the ground. And it was a fight that took a LONG time with my trusty hammer.

I do have a bit of a problem now in that the game won't let me pick a new region to take over, there are a couple left, but they aren't selectable and the only missions left aren't really missions so now I am just clearing out the order, raiding for supplies and collecting collectibles hoping something triggers progress. The good part is I enjoy most of these things.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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coopasonic wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:34 am I do have a bit of a problem now in that the game won't let me pick a new region to take over, there are a couple left, but they aren't selectable and the only missions left aren't really missions so now I am just clearing out the order, raiding for supplies and collecting collectibles hoping something triggers progress. The good part is I enjoy most of these things.
After a little more exploration I went back and found that there was another area to take over, it was just very small, an area within an area. I'm back to cruising through, dominating England... except for one small thing... enemies no longer aggro. I can't be detected by either man or beast. On the plus side, super easy, on the down side, super boring. Hope when I restart the game after lunch it is fixed.

This may be the buggiest AAA release I have experienced since the early Elder Scrolls games, at least in terms of bugs impacting my gameplay experience.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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I’ve had about five lockups or crashes in fifteen hours of gameplay myself.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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jztemple2 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:50 pm I’ve had about five lockups or crashes in fifteen hours of gameplay myself.
What system are you guys playing on? Im about 10 hours into the ps5 version and i haven't run into a single bug. I would note that ubisoft has a history of patching the hell out of the ac games. Heck odyssey was updated so much that the game was massively improved as far as quality of life fixes about 6 months after launch.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Paradroid »

Yeah they do that with all their flagship titles to be fair.

I'm not seeing any game-breaking bugs myself, but the hot spot thing continues to annoy the piss out of me.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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Scraper wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:59 pm
jztemple2 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:50 pm I’ve had about five lockups or crashes in fifteen hours of gameplay myself.
What system are you guys playing on? Im about 10 hours into the ps5 version and i haven't run into a single bug. I would note that ubisoft has a history of patching the hell out of the ac games. Heck odyssey was updated so much that the game was massively improved as far as quality of life fixes about 6 months after launch.
I'm playing on the PC. Yes, I know Ubisoft will be patching the game, but it is still annoying. And really I don't think I will be playing the game six months from now.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by coopasonic »

I'm also on PC and I'm 85 hours in so I may have seen a little more of the game than some of you. :) I think I am on the final stretch story-wise.

For the record, there are only 400 nodes on the skill tree. After you get them all, you stay at 400 power level then you get mastery points you can spend in one of three masteries, raven, wolf and bear.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Paradroid »

I'm not as critical of the skill tree as some people seem to be. You gain levels really quickly so it still feels like you're getting the "proper" skills at a reasonable rate, but in the meantime if you're going down the archery branch you still get stealth and melee nodes to pick up to ensure you don't gimp yourself. And you can reset any time too. I think it's fine.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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And I finished up an hour or so of play with another crash. I'm seeing some stutter in the big battles with lots of smoke and people running around, although my Ubisoft Connect fps meter says I'm still getting 70-85 fps. I'm wondering if that is related to the crashes, although this crash happened a good ten minutes after the battle while I was jumping around some sunken Roman columns.

I'm not hating the game, far from it. I'm just trying to find a mode of playing that interests me more. I'm not really one for all these cut and slash battles, I didn't like them when they were introduced in Odyssey. I really prefer sneaking to slashing :D
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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I played a couple more hours and had more fun with it. For one thing, I've quit trying to hunt down every Wealth, Mystery and Artifact point in my region. Mysteries I'm just giving up on for now unless I really do stumble over them, they are rather silly. I've found a few Artifacts but they don't seem to give me much of what I need right now, so I'll still go get them if they are nearby, otherwise I'll wait till later. Wealth spots I'll get, but only after I've run through Quests and Raids in the area first, otherwise I find myself going back to the same places. I just did that in fact, having raided a monastery and then being sent to it right afterwards for a quest.

I've also come across some "pop up" Quests where someone wants to talk to you and it turns into a small mission. I like these because they are unexpected and this one I just did...
Spoiler:
the one where you get your own personal wolf-dog
...was well written and a nice break from the norm "go kill somebody/burn someplace".

I do like the Quest arcs that have a number of missions and storylines that are tied together. Again, the one I just completed I found well written and nicely laid out as far as locations. And a surprising twist to it as well.

Regarding the Skill trees, I've realized I'm approaching it wrong. All I should care about are the Abilities I'm unlocking, the rest is just gravy. I am specializing in the Bear Head weapons and armor so I've tried to find some of those minor skill points that boost up my loadout, but now it is more important to find Abilities that match my combat play style, which is panicky button mashing :D

So I'm coming around to giving the game a more unqualified thumbs up and am looking forward to seeing more towns and new sights.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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jztemple2 wrote:Regarding the Skill trees, I've realized I'm approaching it wrong. All I should care about are the Abilities I'm unlocking, the rest is just gravy. I am specializing in the Bear Head weapons and armor so I've tried to find some of those minor skill points that boost up my loadout, but now it is more important to find Abilities that match my combat play style, which is panicky button mashing
I started doing the same. Right now I'm focusing on just unlocking Way of the Bear stuff since that's what nearly all of my gear is. Knowing that the skill tree can be maxed out has taken some of my anxiety away about picking the right ones.

I think you're taking the right approach about not hunting down every single thing. I think some of my criticisms of the game come directly from my "grab everything" playstyle. I spent my game session yesterday just doing mainline quests and found myself having a much better time.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

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89 hours, I have finished the story, I have Excalibur and Mjolnir. The order has been annihilated. There are two quest left, one is bugged, but reddit says if I finish the other it will un-bug the first. I am missing 3 codex pages because I stopped scouring cities for wealth in the late game. Deciding if I care. There are also two legendary animals left so I might hunt them down as well. I have a week and a half until Immortals Fenyx Rising so I guess I may as well try finish it a little more completely. I haven't been challenged by anything in quite a while which has taken a bit of the fun out of it. The hardest zealot went down in under a minute.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by coopasonic »

Thinking on it more, the best thing about Valhalla is that the meta-story has me looking forward to what they do with it in the NEXT AC game. Of course I won't remember it by then and I'll be confused by the callbacks, but this is the first time the meta-story really caught my attention in a LONG time.

...and if it isn't clear what I mean by meta-story, I mean the modern day, out of the animus bits.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by jztemple2 »

Oil jars... I got a hint that to break open a covering over a well I need to get into I should place an oil jar there and and shoot it with an arrow. Far enough, but I have searched all over the local area and couldn't find a jar I could pick up. Is there some special place I should look that has oil jars?
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Newcastle »

@JZT - Oil jars should be pretty close to where the breakable wall is. At least that's been my experience. It should be within 50-100M am guessing. Look for small carts. THey also respawn when you find their spawn spot.

-I'd give it a 78% right now. It was fun to run around in it, and I really did enjoy that time but I decided to put this away for now. I know it's going to get a lot of support. The game needs time to ripen and I'll be there later for it. I've got the DLC Mondo pack. I love previous AC games so I dont mind waiting for it to get better.

I came straight from Odyssey. So i have massive rose tinted glasses of a full on supported game. I understand that. But, Odyssey felt more fleshed out. Valhalla seems to have several interesting systems but they dont intermingle too well yet [settlements, order, vacant world]. In Odyssey there always feels like there is something to do ie mega battles, or getting into ship combats, or even hunt animals...Valhalla doesn't come close to that feel yet.



Impressions
-frequent crashes. about once a game session now.
-the world seems empty (run between two points, not often do you encounter critters or bandits). There is a massive world, but there a lot of gaps that are just lifeless and that's a shame. The world could have been populated with many more natural events/quests .
-dislike skill tree (no need to hide it as they do). Bring back the previous structures. Get rid of the numerical "skill points".
-limits on ammo. I am a terrible shot, seriously. I dont like wandering around scrounging for arrows. Prefer previous iterations where you can craft your own.
-dont care for the stamina mechanic
-dont care for the health regen mechanic either. I hate running around looking for health berries. sucks.
-am power level 130 and I feel incredibly lethal. Not that much challenges
-seems gated where it forces you to run across the world to gain skill points to enter other areas. Also in terms of raiding supplies to increase your settlement
-raiding mechanic seems underutilized right now. Wish there were more raids I can do {hear there is DLC for that coming in DEC.}
-not enough forts to raid; and the forts you do raid there is no strategy..you can literally just go "hold my beer..." and charge in.

MEH
-dont really care having to run around the world to find "abilities"

Likes
-the rock & mushroom quests are enjoyable
-data puzzles are cool
-the valkyre leap ability is making my day each time I play.
-archery is pretty awesome in this game it seems.
-roman ruins are a delight to go through
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jztemple2
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by jztemple2 »

Newcastle wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:13 am @JZT - Oil jars should be pretty close to where the breakable wall is. At least that's been my experience. It should be within 50-100M am guessing. Look for small carts. THey also respawn when you find their spawn spot.
Thanks, I'll look for them.

I'm enjoying the game more as I'm doing more role playing and less collectible gathering. I also was getting crashes more than I should, but one thing I'm doing is after a big battle that had lots of fire and smoke, where I've noticing some stuttering....
Image

...I'll save the game and exit out, then after checking my mail and stuff, starting the game again. I don't think it is a memory leak or overheating, but I'm thinking that somehow crashes and playing on after battles are related.
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Scraper
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Scraper »

I ran into 3 bugs in the PS5 version yesterday. Two of them during the same mission. One time I was standing on top of a church fighting someone and I used the Valkyrie leap ability, the problem was my guy leaped 300m and landed on a rock, so I had to run back to the church. The next bug was in the basement of the church where there was a crawl space that let me in to find a chest. The problem was I could not get out, so I had to port to the nearest view point. The third bug was in the Seer's mission where you have to close the door on the ice giants. It would not let me close the door to complete the mission. So yeah bugs are starting to crop up on me too. However, none of it was game breaking, the door bug just required a reload.
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coopasonic
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by coopasonic »

jztemple2 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:38 am Oil jars... I got a hint that to break open a covering over a well I need to get into I should place an oil jar there and and shoot it with an arrow. Far enough, but I have searched all over the local area and couldn't find a jar I could pick up. Is there some special place I should look that has oil jars?
There is a skill you can get that gives you an explosive arrow. Once I got that I never worried about oil jars again. I just started worrying about adrenaline instead. :P

Also you can just throw the oil jar at the barrier, no need for placing and shooting.

The puzzle is sometimes where to find the oil jar and how to get it to the location. Sometimes there are oil jars on the other side of the obstruction and you need to find a way to blow them up, kind of like the super common shoot the blockage through the window thing.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by coopasonic »

I finished the other quest which did, in fact, unbug the first. Now I have zero quests. The credits never did roll, but I finished everything they tell you to do so... *shrug*

90 hours 15 minutes - that was a lot more game than I expected coming in, but I enjoyed it all the way to the end.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by Daehawk »

hahaha I found out in Origins that using a flaming sword in a place with lots of oil jars and hay does not mix well.
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by jztemple2 »

How do I get a Predator bow? I've played almost 24 hours and I've yet to come across one. I have the arrows for it even!
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by coopasonic »

jztemple2 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:26 pm How do I get a Predator bow? I've played almost 24 hours and I've yet to come across one. I have the arrows for it even!
I have 3 of them but couldn't tell you where I got them. Google tells me The Needler is a predator bow that you can get from merchants (380 silver).
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by jztemple2 »

coopasonic wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:29 pm
jztemple2 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:26 pm How do I get a Predator bow? I've played almost 24 hours and I've yet to come across one. I have the arrows for it even!
I have 3 of them but couldn't tell you where I got them. Google tells me The Needler is a predator bow that you can get from merchants (380 silver).
Thanks, I saw that Needler bow in the store but it wasn't labeled with the type. That will help.
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jztemple2
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Re: Assassin's Creed Vahalla

Post by jztemple2 »

Two crashes today, both after pressing F12 to take a screenshot. I guess I'll stay away from screenshots unless I need them :?
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
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