No! The Hall of Fame is an exact science with sweeping social and cultural implications if someone is let in undeservedly!Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:17 pmSo only 5 QB's from each generation should get into the HoF? Same with other position players?noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:23 pm I still think Rivers is the 6th best QB of his generation and that shouldn't get you into the hall.
Brady
Peyton Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rothlesberger
Rivers
Sounds like he is still better than most QBs. Rivers has played on some pretty crappy teams. I think his GM's have failed him more than he has failed the team. A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
For me, it's not that only X number should get in, but I feel like the sheer numbers make it harder. Consider the logjam at receiver: Steve Smith, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Henry Ellard, Torry Holt, Irving Fryar, Hines Ward, Calvin Johnson, and more coming with Larry Fitzgerald retiring soon, Julio Jones is on year 9 or 10, Desean Jackson is getting up there, etc. Each of these guys needs at least 80% of the vote to get in. That's at one position and would make an awesome all time fantasy team. QB is going to be logjammed too, though not as badly, which is why I think he gets in.Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:17 pmSo only 5 QB's from each generation should get into the HoF? Same with other position players?noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:23 pm I still think Rivers is the 6th best QB of his generation and that shouldn't get you into the hall.
Brady
Peyton Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rothlesberger
Rivers
Sounds like he is still better than most QBs. Rivers has played on some pretty crappy teams. I think his GM's have failed him more than he has failed the team. A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Randy Johnson.Scuzz wrote:A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Maybe. Depends on how many starters there are. Consider that's way less than 30 good QBs as I'm not comparing him to Mahomes or Watson as young guys or Farve and Warner as old guys. I think you're right in the argument that we were a bit spoiled with so many really good QBs so you might err on the side of more.Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:17 pmSo only 5 QB's from each generation should get into the HoF? Same with other position players?noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:23 pm I still think Rivers is the 6th best QB of his generation and that shouldn't get you into the hall.
Brady
Peyton Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rothlesberger
Rivers
Sounds like he is still better than most QBs. Rivers has played on some pretty crappy teams. I think his GM's have failed him more than he has failed the team. A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Rivers had 3 amazing years in 2008-2010. He's been living off that reputation ever since. Most of his career, he's been in the top third of QBs; not the top 5. It's not a travesty if he gets in. I just prefer a hall of fame and not a hall of very good.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Rivers may very well be a top 10 all time player in approximate value when he hangs them up. He's not a hall of very good level player. He's Hall of Fame level.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:28 pmMaybe. Depends on how many starters there are. Consider that's way less than 30 good QBs as I'm not comparing him to Mahomes or Watson as young guys or Farve and Warner as old guys. I think you're right in the argument that we were a bit spoiled with so many really good QBs so you might err on the side of more.Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:17 pmSo only 5 QB's from each generation should get into the HoF? Same with other position players?noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:23 pm I still think Rivers is the 6th best QB of his generation and that shouldn't get you into the hall.
Brady
Peyton Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rothlesberger
Rivers
Sounds like he is still better than most QBs. Rivers has played on some pretty crappy teams. I think his GM's have failed him more than he has failed the team. A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Rivers had 3 amazing years in 2008-2010. He's been living off that reputation ever since. Most of his career, he's been in the top third of QBs; not the top 5. It's not a travesty if he gets in. I just prefer a hall of fame and not a hall of very good.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Sure but those years in Seattle stuck with Griffey Jr., Martinez, Arod...
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
I've only briefly looked into how approximate value is calculated, but isn't is somewhat biased to 1) QBs in general and 2) longevity (since I think it's total approximate value rather than yearly average)? Also, it doesn't account for negative plays which rewards gunslinger type QBs. For example, Jameis Winston's AV for 2019 (when he had 30 INTs and 12 fumbles) was a pretty damn good 15 (for reference, in 2018 Mahomes lead the league in AV with a score of 22). I don't know that anyone would say that Winston had a good year last year.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Look. I'm a stat geek. But 1) football doesn't lend itself to being single stat measured; 2) why that one in particular?
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Because it's a way to compare players across positions and eras. Like WAR for baseball.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:04 amLook. I'm a stat geek. But 1) football doesn't lend itself to being single stat measured; 2) why that one in particular?
AV isn't all that biased to QBs - in the raw and average category, less than half the top 20 players are QBs. Also for Jameis, in a year where he had all those turnovers, he also led the league in passing yards and was 2nd in TDs. That's a lot of positive to overcome with the negative stats.Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:01 amI've only briefly looked into how approximate value is calculated, but isn't is somewhat biased to 1) QBs in general and 2) longevity (since I think it's total approximate value rather than yearly average)? Also, it doesn't account for negative plays which rewards gunslinger type QBs. For example, Jameis Winston's AV for 2019 (when he had 30 INTs and 12 fumbles) was a pretty damn good 15 (for reference, in 2018 Mahomes lead the league in AV with a score of 22). I don't know that anyone would say that Winston had a good year last year.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
It was such a hard career for him.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:52 pmSure but those years in Seattle stuck with Griffey Jr., Martinez, Arod...
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Eight of the top 20 are QBs (and the first four are all QBs). Considering that the AV metric was made in order to compare the values of players across all positions, I would say that's pretty QB biased.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Except that QB's control a lot of the game? If it were biased toward offensive lineman that'd be a problemRalph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:28 pmEight of the top 20 are QBs (and the first four are all QBs). Considering that the AV metric was made in order to compare the values of players across all positions, I would say that's pretty QB biased.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Uh, Ray Guy is in the Hall of Fame...
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
That doesn't answer the question. There have been multiple books written about why and how WAR is calculated and useful.
Approximate value is one guy's theory and it's a finger in the air attempting to find out where the wind comes from.
From his explanation:
Anything that ranks Dan Marino 20% worse than Favre is a flawed metric.A reminder that this method is for the purpose of establishing approximate value.
...
Does it make this whole exercise useless? That's for you to decide. But if you think it does, there's not much point in reading on. So if you're still here, remember: I will liberally and sometimes arbitrarily play the "we're keeping it simple" card.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
By your own argument, WAR is a flawed metric because it Andy Pettitte's career WAR is more than 20% higher than Sandy Koufax.
Longevity plays a huge role in HoF careers. It's why Brett Favre's AV is so much higher than Marino's. It's also part of why Rivers' numbers are higher than Roethlisberger's.
Rivers is a HoF QB. I would not be surprised if he makes it first ballot.
Longevity plays a huge role in HoF careers. It's why Brett Favre's AV is so much higher than Marino's. It's also part of why Rivers' numbers are higher than Roethlisberger's.
Rivers is a HoF QB. I would not be surprised if he makes it first ballot.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
This kind of thing is why I think it's worthwhile to count stats in the regular season separately from championship game performance.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:35 pmAnything that ranks Dan Marino 20% worse than Favre is a flawed metric.
If you count SB wins, then Trent Dilfer ranks above many other top quarterbacks because he has a win there and they don't. Game performance though is a whole other thing. Dilfer had 153 yards and 1 TD in that SB. Marino had amazing stats in the regular season and even in some playoff games, that's enough for me to consider him one of the all time greats. He had the bad luck of facing off against Montana's 49ers in that one SB and he couldn't wield his mojo the way Eli did against Brady. He was still an all time great though. Favre's stats aren't as good but he did have an awesome SB performance. It's not just that his team won, he personally performed at a high level in that game. That's what elevates his status in my opinion.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
I wouldn't be surprised either. Borderline popular guys tend to get in.pr0ner wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:25 pm By your own argument, WAR is a flawed metric because it Andy Pettitte's career WAR is more than 20% higher than Sandy Koufax.
Longevity plays a huge role in HoF careers. It's why Brett Favre's AV is so much higher than Marino's. It's also part of why Rivers' numbers are higher than Roethlisberger's.
Rivers is a HoF QB. I would not be surprised if he makes it first ballot.
Also note, Andy Petitte isn't anywhere close to the Hall of Fame
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Old Man Rivers stages another ferocious 4th quarter comeback only to come up short, cementing his legacy.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Well, he retired today. A bit sad really. The most I was ever excited about NCSU football was when he was there. I remember going to see him on a Thursday night game his freshman year. I had never heard Carter Finley stadium that loud before. He was an incredibly great quarterback in college and the NFL. I hope he does get into the NFL Hall of Fame but I don't think it's a cinch.
My last iota of giving a shit about the NFL is now gone. Oh well... I don't miss it.
My last iota of giving a shit about the NFL is now gone. Oh well... I don't miss it.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
OK, now can we put this thread to rest until 1/21/26 when he's actually eligible to be in the HoF? Assuming he doesn't pull a Favre and wander about rudderless teams (hey, the Bears apparently need a QB!)
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Rivers never got any respect for his accomplishments. He's always been overshadowed by large venue QBs like Eli, Roethlisberger, and others. The ownership in SD is slightly better than Dan Snyder level. For most of his career he's been asked to overcome poor defense and poor coaching with a terrible offensive line. If you feel he's borderline I's say he deserves the HOF based on one game alone. And putting him in the same tier as Stafford is ridiculous. What's next? Comparing Zeke to Tim Biakabreakable? Not to mention putting him anywhere near Flacco. Flacco isn't even in the hall of very good.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
I think that Rivers will get in the hall, but I have a similar problem with him that I have with so many that everyone wants to just rush into the hall. Simply put, he was never near the best at his position during his career. I don’t mean just statistically, I just mean that there was never a year during his career where anyone would seriously consider him the best QB in the NFL.
He piled up stats though, and that’s all that matters now.
He piled up stats though, and that’s all that matters now.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
So one great season means more than 16 really good ones for you? Terrell Davis > Jerome Bettis?
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
Au contraire! This means we have five solid years to settle this issue once and for all!
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
.
When the odometer hits 5 years, his merits can then be gauged against other candidates.
The answer for the next 4.99 years is no, because he hasn't been retired long enough.
When the odometer hits 5 years, his merits can then be gauged against other candidates.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
At least he won't be up against Eli.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
"Well Phil, the good news is you won't be up against Eli. The bad news is that you will probably be against Brees."
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?
No, he said he was never the best at his position. He wasn't 2nd or 3rd either. He was the 6th best of his generation.EvilHomer3k wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:37 am So one great season means more than 16 really good ones for you? Terrell Davis > Jerome Bettis?
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog