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Mars is hard

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AWS260
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Re: Mars is hard

Post by AWS260 »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:31 pm This video is great:

So cool.
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Re: Mars is hard

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They're doing a question and chat thing right now. Someone asked about the cameras and NASA says the yare just bought and used . They barelly modded them to keep out dust and such. You can buy them online yourself. Man thats not like the old days where everything was custom made.

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Re: Mars is hard

Post by Redfive »

AWS260 wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:53 pm
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:31 pm This video is great:

So cool.
It really is awe-inspiring. I hope it gets shown in elementary schools around the world.
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Re: Mars is hard

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That video . . . I made my whole family watch it, and after the fourth time I explained to them that this was REAL video - not CGI - they all turned to me and said, “Dad, we know!” I realized I was really trying to convince myself! So epically cool! :D
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Re: Mars is hard

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Re: Mars is hard

Post by raydude »

Daehawk wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:01 pm They're doing a question and chat thing right now. Someone asked about the cameras and NASA says the yare just bought and used . They barelly modded them to keep out dust and such. You can buy them online yourself. Man thats not like the old days where everything was custom made.

https://www.twitch.tv/nasa
It depends on how the instrument is used and the criticality to the success of the mission. I'm pretty sure the landing cams are not scientifically useful nor are they listed as part of NASA's success criteria for the mission. "Take landing selfie video" for example is not a mission-critical goal, hence no need for custom cameras.

However, MASTCAM-z and Supercam are most definitely scientifically useful and most likely the data they take are part of the mission success criteria. Just looking at the pics of the instruments you can see that there is a lot of custom work that went into them.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Re: Mars is hard

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Re: Mars is hard

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Daehawk wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:28 pm Enlarge Image
This is why NASA doesn't let me drive the rover -- screw rocks, I'd want to go look at the landing debris.
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Re: Mars is hard

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That image makes me think of this emoji

:?
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Re: Mars is hard

Post by Holman »

Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.

The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
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Re: Mars is hard

Post by raydude »

Holman wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:52 am Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.

The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
I don't believe there is an economic value to Mars either - unless Musk is thinking about the $$$ to be made shuttling supplies to Mars. However, even if his motives are less than scientifically pure, that's not to say that humanity shouldn't colonize Mars. Also, it's not as if the first colonists to Mars will not be among our best and brightest. In fact, I would argue the first colonists to Mars will be precisely those who think humanity's existence on Earth is precarious, and therefore will strive to ensure Mars doesn't become exploited to the point of harming the environment the way Earth has been. Of possible futures, I think something like the Mars Republic in The Expanse is more likely than most. Certainly given the distances involved I think it's more likely that any company controlled colonization of Mars will result in an independent government sooner rather than later.
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Re: Mars is hard

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raydude wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:38 am
Holman wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:52 am Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.

The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
I don't believe there is an economic value to Mars either - unless Musk is thinking about the $$$ to be made shuttling supplies to Mars. However, even if his motives are less than scientifically pure, that's not to say that humanity shouldn't colonize Mars. Also, it's not as if the first colonists to Mars will not be among our best and brightest. In fact, I would argue the first colonists to Mars will be precisely those who think humanity's existence on Earth is precarious, and therefore will strive to ensure Mars doesn't become exploited to the point of harming the environment the way Earth has been. Of possible futures, I think something like the Mars Republic in The Expanse is more likely than most. Certainly given the distances involved I think it's more likely that any company controlled colonization of Mars will result in an independent government sooner rather than later.
0% chance. Well, I'll qualify that - the *first* colonists would be highly skilled pioneers to build the infrastructure and get the very basics running. They'd be very few in number and not inclined to widespread exploitation.

However, if and when it becomes safe, affordable, and feasible for anyone to go to and stay on Mars, the first people to come in large numbers will be those who are always pioneers on a frontier - less wealthy people who haven't found opportunity at home and so are seeking it elsewhere (homesteaders and 49ers and whatnot). They will absolutely be willing as a group to stripmine Mars of whatever they can to build a decent life. It's the same force that drives the removal of the rainforest.

Whether there's economic value to Mars is harder to say I think. Though all it would take is to find some widespread economic use for something that's relatively abundant on Mars and rare or nonexistent on Earth.
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Re: Mars is hard

Post by raydude »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:45 am
raydude wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:38 am
Holman wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:52 am Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.

The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
I don't believe there is an economic value to Mars either - unless Musk is thinking about the $$$ to be made shuttling supplies to Mars. However, even if his motives are less than scientifically pure, that's not to say that humanity shouldn't colonize Mars. Also, it's not as if the first colonists to Mars will not be among our best and brightest. In fact, I would argue the first colonists to Mars will be precisely those who think humanity's existence on Earth is precarious, and therefore will strive to ensure Mars doesn't become exploited to the point of harming the environment the way Earth has been. Of possible futures, I think something like the Mars Republic in The Expanse is more likely than most. Certainly given the distances involved I think it's more likely that any company controlled colonization of Mars will result in an independent government sooner rather than later.
0% chance. Well, I'll qualify that - the *first* colonists would be highly skilled pioneers to build the infrastructure and get the very basics running. They'd be very few in number and not inclined to widespread exploitation.

However, if and when it becomes safe, affordable, and feasible for anyone to go to and stay on Mars, the first people to come in large numbers will be those who are always pioneers on a frontier - less wealthy people who haven't found opportunity at home and so are seeking it elsewhere (homesteaders and 49ers and whatnot). They will absolutely be willing as a group to stripmine Mars of whatever they can to build a decent life. It's the same force that drives the removal of the rainforest.

Whether there's economic value to Mars is harder to say I think. Though all it would take is to find some widespread economic use for something that's relatively abundant on Mars and rare or nonexistent on Earth.
The difference is that there is way less margin for error on Mars if you screw up the environment you're living in. On Earth, strip mining mountains and letting the "junk" fall where it may contaminate the riverbeds and streams is ok because one can always bring in bottled water or just let the town die as folks move away from a contaminated site. On Mars, letting "junk" contaminate your water supply leads to death as there are no Martians to buy water from or Martian towns to move to.
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Re: Mars is hard

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raydude wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:59 pm
El Guapo wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:45 am
raydude wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:38 am
Holman wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:52 am Worth remembering: Mars is a Hellhole.
Musk is not from Mars, but he and Sagan do seem to come from different worlds. Like Sagan, Musk exhibits a religious-like devotion to space, a fervent desire to go there, but their purposes are entirely divergent. Sagan inspired generations of writers, scientists, and engineers who felt compelled to chase the awe that he dug up from the depths of their heart. Everyone who references Sagan as a reason they are in their field connects to the wonder of being human, and marvels at the luck of having grown up and evolved on such a beautiful, rare planet.

The influence Musk is having on a generation of people could not be more different. Musk has used the medium of dreaming and exploration to wrap up a package of entitlement, greed, and ego. He has no longing for scientific discovery, no desire to understand what makes Earth so different from Mars, how we all fit together and relate. Musk is no explorer; he is a flag planter. He seems to have missed one of the other lines from Pale Blue Dot: “There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world.”
I don't believe there is an economic value to Mars either - unless Musk is thinking about the $$$ to be made shuttling supplies to Mars. However, even if his motives are less than scientifically pure, that's not to say that humanity shouldn't colonize Mars. Also, it's not as if the first colonists to Mars will not be among our best and brightest. In fact, I would argue the first colonists to Mars will be precisely those who think humanity's existence on Earth is precarious, and therefore will strive to ensure Mars doesn't become exploited to the point of harming the environment the way Earth has been. Of possible futures, I think something like the Mars Republic in The Expanse is more likely than most. Certainly given the distances involved I think it's more likely that any company controlled colonization of Mars will result in an independent government sooner rather than later.
0% chance. Well, I'll qualify that - the *first* colonists would be highly skilled pioneers to build the infrastructure and get the very basics running. They'd be very few in number and not inclined to widespread exploitation.

However, if and when it becomes safe, affordable, and feasible for anyone to go to and stay on Mars, the first people to come in large numbers will be those who are always pioneers on a frontier - less wealthy people who haven't found opportunity at home and so are seeking it elsewhere (homesteaders and 49ers and whatnot). They will absolutely be willing as a group to stripmine Mars of whatever they can to build a decent life. It's the same force that drives the removal of the rainforest.

Whether there's economic value to Mars is harder to say I think. Though all it would take is to find some widespread economic use for something that's relatively abundant on Mars and rare or nonexistent on Earth.
The difference is that there is way less margin for error on Mars if you screw up the environment you're living in. On Earth, strip mining mountains and letting the "junk" fall where it may contaminate the riverbeds and streams is ok because one can always bring in bottled water or just let the town die as folks move away from a contaminated site. On Mars, letting "junk" contaminate your water supply leads to death as there are no Martians to buy water from or Martian towns to move to.
It's a good thing people never mess with the environment recklessly in ways that endanger their health and safety.
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Re: Mars is hard

Post by Kraken »

Ironically, the main thing Mars needs in order to become more habitable is a hefty dose of global warming...and there aren't any fossil fuels there to help with that. A nice blanket of CO2 would trap solar heat, melt ice, and give plants something to breathe.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Kraken wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:01 pm Ironically, the main thing Mars needs in order to become more habitable is a hefty dose of global warming...and there aren't any fossil fuels there to help with that. A nice blanket of CO2 would trap solar heat, melt ice, and give plants something to breathe.
Between playing Surviving Mars and playing Terraforming Mars, this is known. Maybe we set up a toxic greenhouse removal and dumping convoy from Venus to Mars and the both become Goldilocks... Assuming we can find water on Venus.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Even a terraformed Mars is missing a magnetic field, though. Anything out in the open is living Chernobyl's worst day.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Phys.org

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Over the course of about 18 months, the Mars Odyssey probe detected ongoing radiation levels which are 2.5 times higher than what astronauts experience on the International Space Station – 22 millirads per day, which works out to 8000 millirads (8 rads) per year. The spacecraft also detected 2 solar proton events, where radiation levels peaked at about 2,000 millirads in a day, and a few other events that got up to about 100 millirads.

For comparison, human beings in developed nations are exposed to (on average) 0.62 rads per year. And while studies have shown that the human body can withstand a dose of up to 200 rads without permanent damage, prolonged exposure to the kinds of levels detected on Mars could lead to all kinds of health problems – like acute radiation sickness, increased risk of cancer, genetic damage, and even death.

And given that exposure to any amount of radiation carries with it some degree of risk, NASA and other space agencies maintain a strict policy of ALARA (As-Low-As-Reasonable-Achievable) when planning missions.
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Re: Mars is hard

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NASA has a good writeup about the process of unpacking Ingenuity, and what to expect if it goes well. First flight is probably around 3 weeks away. Here's a tidbit I didn't know.
A small amount of the material that covered one of the wings of the Wright brothers’ aircraft, known as the Flyer, during the first flight is now aboard Ingenuity. An insulative tape was used to wrap the small swatch of fabric around a cable located underneath the helicopter’s solar panel. The Wrights used the same type of material – an unbleached muslin called “Pride of the West” – to cover their glider and aircraft wings beginning in 1901. The Apollo 11 crew flew a different piece of the material, along with a small splinter of wood from the Wright Flyer, to the Moon and back during their iconic mission in July 1969.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Kraken wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:00 pm NASA has a good writeup about the process of unpacking Ingenuity, and what to expect if it goes well. First flight is probably around 3 weeks away. Here's a tidbit I didn't know.
A small amount of the material that covered one of the wings of the Wright brothers’ aircraft, known as the Flyer, during the first flight is now aboard Ingenuity. An insulative tape was used to wrap the small swatch of fabric around a cable located underneath the helicopter’s solar panel. The Wrights used the same type of material – an unbleached muslin called “Pride of the West” – to cover their glider and aircraft wings beginning in 1901. The Apollo 11 crew flew a different piece of the material, along with a small splinter of wood from the Wright Flyer, to the Moon and back during their iconic mission in July 1969.
I love all of their historical references. And this show with the code on the Perseverance parachute was also very funny. I wonder what they will come up with for the mission to Titan. If it takes place, of course.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Image

Selfie of Perseverance with Ingenuity is stitched from 62 images. Ginny could fly as soon as this Sunday.

Story
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Re: Mars is hard

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Martians "Oh oh great, now they're shitting too. Wonderful."
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Re: Mars is hard

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Kraken wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:07 pm Image
I didn't realize the rover was going 'back n forth' across the same patch of land, as I can see another set of track off to the right, in that image...
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Re: Mars is hard

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Kraken wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:00 pm Here's a tidbit I didn't know.
Do you know if there is any plan to video record the flight from the ground ? I have to imagine there is.

Being a bit of an RC Helicopter fan (in my day), I am really geeked about this test flight.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Unagi wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:09 am I didn't realize the rover was going 'back n forth' across the same patch of land, as I can see another set of track off to the right, in that image...
The soundstage isn't really big enough for more than that.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Unagi wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:12 am
Kraken wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:00 pm Here's a tidbit I didn't know.
Do you know if there is any plan to video record the flight from the ground ? I have to imagine there is.

Being a bit of an RC Helicopter fan (in my day), I am really geeked about this test flight.
The rover will "watch" from a safe distance and might be able to pick up the sound with its microphones. I don't think it has a movie camera, but it can take a rapid sequence of photos like we've seen in the "dust devil" images. The copter is outfitted with a camera as well. It would be cool if it can snap a pic of Perseverance, but IDK if that's in its flight program. Remember that it's autonomous, not RC.
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Re: Mars is hard

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stessier wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:13 am
Unagi wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:09 am I didn't realize the rover was going 'back n forth' across the same patch of land, as I can see another set of track off to the right, in that image...
The soundstage isn't really big enough for more than that.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Kraken wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:43 pm Remember that it's autonomous, not RC.
Just think of the lag.
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Re: Mars is hard

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Kraken wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:43 pm I don't think it has a movie camera, but it can take a rapid sequence of photos like we've seen in the "dust devil" images.
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Re: Mars is hard

Post by Kraken »

Ingenuity's maiden flight delayed until Wednesday. One hopes the new target time isn't at 3:30 a.m. EDT, as the earlier one was. I want to watch it "live" (minus 15.5 minutes).
Perseverance will be parked at an overlook 215 feet (65 meters) away from the helicopter so it can safely watch the flight and capture images and videos.
"And videos" might mean I was wrong about Perseverance's movie capability.
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Re: Mars is hard

Post by Max Peck »

The description of the Mastcam-Z sensor implies that it can capture video as well as still images.
Mastcam-Z has cameras that can zoom in, focus, and take 3D pictures and video at high speed to allow detailed examination of distant objects.
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