Library loaning of PC games

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:12 pm

I'm a relatively new hire at a local library. This particular library has been loaning out PC games for some time now and, in discussions with one of the librarians, it's become pretty obvious how little the people who are buying these games and putting them into circulation know about the logistics (and legality) behind lending out PC games. For example, the purchaser recently procured two copies of different MMORPG expansions with the intent of putting them into circulation, not being aware that A. the original game would be required or B. that the MMORPG model would not translate well at all to library lending. Since I know quite a bit about gaming and what's out there I have the opportunity to provide a lot of input.

I haven't met with the powers-that-be to discuss this in detail yet, but my biggest concern is copyright violation for having games installed on more than one PC out there, especially when it comes to the use of cd keys (playing those titles multiplayer obviously opens Pandora's Box). Does anyone out there work for a library that has loaned out PC games in the past? How about anyone that's borrowed PC games from a library? Did they have any policies regarding installing the games? Any input would be appreciated.

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:01 pm

Can you call the MMORPG company and have them set up a special account for the library and just change the password each time a person returns the game?

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:47 pm

i've never heard of a library loaning out games! that's fantastic. i use my local one (King County in Western Washington, it RULES) for everything. they also order about 2/3s of the CDs i request that they don't have in stock (anywhere from 4 to 9!)

Meghan · Post by **Meghan** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:22 pm

I've seen video rental companies that rent games, pc & consol. Granted, the mmorpg purchases seem like a bad idea.

I wouldn't worry about it any more than the library worries about ripping audio cd's or dvd's or photocopying books.

dangerballs · Post by **dangerballs** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:45 pm

Who's playing for the MMORPGs subscription fees?

Eel Snave · Post by **Eel Snave** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:16 am

I'm always shocked by how libraries will buy stuff without actually consulting people who...you know...KNOW about these things.

For instance, at my library, we've got about 3 copies of The Longest Journey. It's a great game, but are 3 people really going to check this out? Especially considering the price (at the time they purchased it) of $50 per copy. I mean, honestly.

Bad Demographic · Post by **Bad Demographic** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:42 pm

Unless they're privately funded libraries, they probably don't have to worry about whether a lot of people will check out the games. Still, three copies of a single game seems excessive. And the whole issue of the legality --- you got me there. Some part of my brain keeps telling me this isn't really kosher (maybe the part that actually read the software user agreement).

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:45 pm

That's the thing - no one is paying the fees. in order for the game to work, the person borrowing it would have to charge it to a credit card, then cancel after a week or two when the game is due back. Like I said, it just wouldn't work out logistically.

An example of a grey area is Rome: Total War, though. One of the librarians emailed me the other day inquiring about this title. It's a strange one in that you don't need the cd key to install or play single player, but it's required for multiplayer. Would it be okay, then, to loan that particular title without the cd key included, along with a note that multiplayer isn't available with that copy? Or is it legal to lend out the entire package and not be concerned with liability, if there is any? This is the stuff I wonder about and I'm not sure if it's completely covered in the game's EULA.

Otherwise, this is a great library - they also lend out DVD's, music CD's, and books on tape/cd. It's pretty awesome being able to catch new movies without having to shell out an arm and a leg (although, considering they're free, some of the titles are really hard to catch on the shelf).

Kadoth Nodens · Post by **Kadoth Nodens** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:57 pm

Just out of curiosity, do they lend out console games or non-gaming software?

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:13 pm

Nope, no console games or non-game software.

Kadoth Nodens · Post by **Kadoth Nodens** » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:57 pm

Jow wrote:Nope, no console games or non-game software.

Weird. You'd figure that stuff would be more in demand.

Good luck in getting everything straightened out.

JayG · Post by **JayG** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:47 am

I think it's a good idea. The more chances there are for young people to get addicted to PC gaming, the bigger chance there is for our hobby to grow.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:42 am

Jow,

My parents check out games for my nephew from the Canton Library all of the time. You might want to check in on them. They are located at Canton Center south of Cherry Hill (Actually south of Proctor, but you might not know that road)

Are you working at the Westland library on Central City? They seem awfully small to have games and DVDs.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:23 am

Nope, I'm at the one in downtown Plymouth. The network manager here actually works pretty closely with the NM over at Canton, so maybe I can ask him to dig for info the next time they talk.

Thanks for the tip.

Eduardo X · Post by **Eduardo X** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:33 pm

I was very impressed, thanks to this thread, to discover that Denver's library has tons of games. They're not all particularly good games, but games none-the-less.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:39 pm

I'm betting it's not legal. But who wants to come down on a library.

Giles Habibula · Post by **Giles Habibula** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:57 pm

This is just absolutely fascinating. I had no idea.

So instead of trying a lame demo before I buy, I can just check out the whole game and try it that way? As a collector, I love the idea of 'try the whole game before you buy', because if I liked it a lot, I'd go out and purchase it even though I'd already finished it during the loan time.

On the other hand, I imagine that most folks would check it out, finish the game (by checking it out multiple times if need be), and then never buy it at all. Which initially sounds totally illegal as hell. But if people can rent a console game for a couple bucks or loan one of those out from a library, I guess I don't see why the same rules wouldn't apply to PC games. I suppose the license agreement would be the place to check for the final answer. And I can't imagine the license allowing it, even in the case of a single-player game like TLJ.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:36 pm

The only problem I can foresee is that PC titles are generally CD keyed while console titles aren't. Therefore, the same cd key is being shared among every single person that borrows that game. Needless to say, in multiplayer that could cause the key to be banned and the library's copy of the game to become useless... but this is just repeating something I said in the initial post.

Funny enough, I've never checked our catalog to see what's available. Just so busy with the couple games I bought last month and life that the thought of adding more games to the fray is ridiculous.

Edmond · Post by **Edmond** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:37 am

We have some great selection of games here.

Last time I went there, I saw, on the shelf:

Starwars: KOTOR
Homeworld 2
Dungeon Siege
Freelancer
Dominions 2
Red Alert 2
Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
Age of Mythology
XIII
Various EA sport games
And lots of others that I can't remember,

username · Post by **username** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:58 pm

Giles Habibula wrote:On the other hand, I imagine that most folks would check it out, finish the game (by checking it out multiple times if need be), and then never buy it at all. Which initially sounds totally illegal as hell. But if people can rent a console game for a couple bucks or loan one of those out from a library, I guess I don't see why the same rules wouldn't apply to PC games. I suppose the license agreement would be the place to check for the final answer. And I can't imagine the license allowing it, even in the case of a single-player game like TLJ.

Companies can't just claim anything they want. They can't require you to sacrifice your first-born son, for example, in exchange for using their product. If books and console games can be loaned, rented, or sold, then so can (the physical media of) computer games.

Remember, it is just as illegal to copy and distribute books and console games as it is computer games. It's the content that's protected from duplication. When you buy a book or a game, you're buying one instance, so to speak, of the material contained therein, and that's all you're allowed to have without paying for another instance. Thus, so long as libraries aren't loaning out duplicated copies of games, they're in the clear. They meet the requirement of "one copy on one computer at a time."

(This means that your initial assumption that one must purchase a game in order to use it is fallacious. That's not the case. It's only the case that one must be using a legally purchased copy; i.e. a copy legally purchased by someone.)

The whole problem with computer games revolves around the fact that they are so easily duplicated. It's much more difficult to duplicate books and console games, since few people own the equipment. But in theory, everyone could run out and buy printing presses and start duplicating books and selling them or giving them to their friends. If that happened, the book industry would demand the outlawing of printing presses, just as the computer game (and record) industry is now pushing to outlaw CD burners. In principle, there's no difference between them.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:12 am

just as the computer game (and record) industry is now pushing to outlaw CD burners

this is really happening?

username · Post by **username** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:59 am

It was. I don't know if it still is.

EDIT: When I said that few people own the means to copy console games, I was thinking of the old cartridges they used to use. I just bought my first console last week, so I know they're coming on CD's now, which are probably just as easy to copy as computer game CD's.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:44 am

i checked my library card catalog - they have City of Heroes, Age of Mythology, a few Carmen Sandiego games and Physicus. that's it...

is there a free trial available for City of Heroes? i'd check it out if that were to be the case...

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:22 am

I think you are on the hook anyway, aren't you? Don't the Dunninghuff Public Library (Plymouth) and the Canton Public Library have an interlibrary loan arrangement? IE Couldn't I go to Plymouth and request you to get the game from Canton and borrow it from you already? I know that the Plymouth and Canton library cards were also historically interchangable.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:57 am

I'm pretty sure that arrangement exists for books in particular, but I'm not sure if it extends to other media. Worth finding out, I guess.

The duplication thing was also something I was considering, but ya know, there's no way to stop that and I'm relatively sure (even if it was possible to stop) that it's the lending institution's duty to prevent that.