Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation? Mixed results!

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:37 am
malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:21 am moderate GOP members
Not a thing. We need a better term, as moderate can no longer refer to any GOP members.
What is Romney then?
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Smoove_B »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Zaxxon »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
Yep. Alternately, 'someone who occasionally says the right thing while contributing financially and professionally to an organization opposed to the continued function of democracy in America.' That's a radical, not a moderate.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)*
*Except for Impeachment votes which is the only sign of a "moderate" anymore. That group is pretty small and soon to be irrelevant in the House.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

It's sort of amazing to watch one of the Democratic tropes in such vivid color - I'm referring to how they like to negotiate against themselves.

User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41247
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
This is great.

Romney is genuinely a moderate relative to today's GOP. It's just that today's GOP has gone so bonkers that it's nonetheless misleading to call him a moderate
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41247
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:04 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
This is great.

Romney is genuinely a moderate relative to today's GOP. It's just that today's GOP has gone so bonkers that it's nonetheless misleading to call him a moderate
Yep, the term is VERY much relative, and time-sensitive. What would we have/did we call Romney 10 years ago?

It's like we've gone through some kind of political wormhole in the past 15-20 years.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
It'll be interesting to see how much damage a $2T deal does to party unity. It is awfully frail to begin with.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:09 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:04 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
This is great.

Romney is genuinely a moderate relative to today's GOP. It's just that today's GOP has gone so bonkers that it's nonetheless misleading to call him a moderate
Yep, the term is VERY much relative, and time-sensitive. What would we have/did we call Romney 10 years ago?
A soon-to-be Republican nominee for President. That's how far they've slid since then. He is now an unpopular outlier with much of the GOP.
It's like we've gone through some kind of political wormhole in the past 15-20 years.
It's been an anti-revolution of sorts to say the least.
User avatar
stessier
Posts: 29818
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: SC

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by stessier »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
You know you keep using B when you mean T, right?
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
Global Steam Wishmaslist Tracking
Running____2014: 1300.55 miles____2015: 2036.13 miles____2016: 1012.75 miles____2017: 1105.82 miles____2018: 1318.91 miles__2019: 2000.00 miles
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41247
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:13 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
It'll be interesting to see how much damage a $2T deal does to party unity. It is awfully frail to begin with.
True. Though who knows what else they're likely to pass anyway. At least I think both wings of the party still trust / can work with Biden, although his influence over Manchin and Sinema (mainly Sinema) seems low.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41247
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

stessier wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:22 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
You know you keep using B when you mean T, right?
Whoopsie!
Black Lives Matter.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:28 pm
malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:13 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
It'll be interesting to see how much damage a $2T deal does to party unity. It is awfully frail to begin with.
True. Though who knows what else they're likely to pass anyway. At least I think both wings of the party still trust / can work with Biden, although his influence over Manchin and Sinema (mainly Sinema) seems low.
I don't know how much influence Biden has over Manchin. Manchin knows enough to extract the most tax savings for himself and his plutocratic buddies. He also is going to kibosh climate change provisions for sure. He is a complete scumbag but he isn't an idiot.

Sinema is the joker. SNL got that exactly right. This fake maverick shit is just bonkers. She isn't even doing it right. Her life story is one of complete unseriousness from what I've seen including references to her book. I sort of want to dig in because I don't understand how she is a US Senator. Were there no serious contenders? I mean it's Arizona and all but this is just embarrassing.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Smoove_B »

malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:35 pm Were there no serious contenders? I mean it's Arizona and all but this is just embarrassing.
My 1000 foot understanding is that she ran on a more progressive platform and is now going against the very things she said she supported (like increased minimum wage).

My guess is that we won't know what her real plan is until she loses her seat in 2024. Let's not be surprised when she slides into some awful corporate advisory position or joins a conservative think-tank and pulls down a generous six figure salary.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41247
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:44 pm
malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:35 pm Were there no serious contenders? I mean it's Arizona and all but this is just embarrassing.
My 1000 foot understanding is that she ran on a more progressive platform and is now going against the very things she said she supported (like increased minimum wage).

My guess is that we won't know what her real plan is until she loses her seat in 2024. Let's not be surprised when she slides into some awful corporate advisory position or joins a conservative think-tank and pulls down a generous six figure salary.
My working theory is that she's a narcissistic idiot.
Black Lives Matter.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:36 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:44 pm
malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:35 pm Were there no serious contenders? I mean it's Arizona and all but this is just embarrassing.
My 1000 foot understanding is that she ran on a more progressive platform and is now going against the very things she said she supported (like increased minimum wage).

My guess is that we won't know what her real plan is until she loses her seat in 2024. Let's not be surprised when she slides into some awful corporate advisory position or joins a conservative think-tank and pulls down a generous six figure salary.
My working theory is that she's a narcissistic idiot.
That is probably why she and Manchin get along on this. They both love the attention. I wouldn't be surprised if we found she loves that she was chased into a bathroom. The very serious people are aflutter at the incivility and she is in the center of it.
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Defiant »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:36 pm
My working theory is that she's a narcissistic idiot.
Isn't that a requirement for working in congress? (At least, the narcissistic part).
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:04 pmRomney is genuinely a moderate relative to today's GOP. It's just that today's GOP has gone so bonkers that it's nonetheless misleading to call him a moderate
Yet here he is scoring cheap political points for McConnell. Ten years ago he'd be calling out himself for this type of behavior.

User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Zaxxon »

Yeah, again, can't be described as a moderate. Even Kinzinger, who I view as one of the most level-headed GOP members, still aligns himself with the party. And is thus a radical.
User avatar
Carpet_pissr
Posts: 19980
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Sasse?
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8489
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Alefroth »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:20 pmSasse?
Does he align himself with the party?
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

This administration must get much better than this showing. No wonder Manchin and Sinema feel comfortable hiding in their ambivalence. The public doesn't understand what they are missing except in bits and pieces.

User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 41247
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:47 pm This administration must get much better than this showing. No wonder Manchin and Sinema feel comfortable hiding in their ambivalence. The public doesn't understand what they are missing except in bits and pieces.
Good luck, though. This is yet another drawback with the filibuster as currently structured is that it forces *everything* to be squeezed into one mega bill, which means that you have ten different topics (at least) that are unrelated that have to be passed together. Which both makes it difficult to pass, and makes it impossible to message, because the one thing that defines it / holds it together is the method of passage and the cost of it.
Black Lives Matter.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

A US Senator...fundraising...in Europe. Whatever. Nothing surprises anymore.

User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70101
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by LordMortis »

How did she win her primary?
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 51303
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by hepcat »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:08 am How did she win her primary?
She won Germany and France, which was enough.
Covfefe!
User avatar
Ralph-Wiggum
Posts: 17449
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Isn't it illegal to get campaign funds from foreign donors?
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Defiant
Posts: 21045
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Tongue in cheek

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Defiant »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:23 am Isn't it illegal to get campaign funds from foreign donors?
My assumption would be that she's raising them from Americans living abroad. Wouldn't have thought that would have been a big source for donations, though. (OTOH, I guess there might be some rich Americans who live abroad because they can afford to).
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

Yeah that's the thing. It's most likely Americans living abroad but it's just another indicator how gross this whole thing is. She won't meet actual constituents. She won't explain her position to the press. Raising money from rich people who actively are destroying our country? She'll fly to Europe for that. This is why I at least have sympathy for the 'Drazzil' position. It isn't like these people aren't out there actively earning the scorn.
User avatar
gbasden
Posts: 7664
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:57 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by gbasden »

malchior wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:51 am Yeah that's the thing. It's most likely Americans living abroad but it's just another indicator how gross this whole thing is. She won't meet actual constituents. She won't explain her position to the press. Raising money from rich people who actively are destroying our country? She'll fly to Europe for that. This is why I at least have sympathy for the 'Drazzil' position. It isn't like these people aren't out there actively earning the scorn.
Oh, I totally have the feels that at least half of Congress and the people that enable them should be put up against the wall. My lizard brain wants it very badly. I just know that it would make whatever course we are on worse.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Smoove_B »

malchior wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:50 pm She has been doing all sorts of other corrupt things - one of which is the shady PAC event earlier this week. Another one was the story that came out about her weird summer internship at a winery last summer owned by a hedge fund which is also a political donor to her campaign.
More on that:



To swing this back on topic, I'm pretty confident we're beyond "self destructing" at this point as there is a complete inability for the Dems to seemingly act in unison in any capacity when there are urgent matters at hand. And yes I know everyone is focusing on Sinema and Manchin, but I'm also firmly in the camp that if it wasn't them, it would be others.

Despair.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

It's the American dream baby! What's not to love about a system where one man from a tiny state with a massive conflict of interest has effective veto power over the next 10-years of sustainable energy investment and the environment of an entire nation. Or a woman with effective veto power over the whole agenda who won't even tell you what she wants other than pass her infrastructure bill. Then we'll get down to talking.
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Zaxxon »

Probably time for a thread title update.
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

Zaxxon wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:59 pm Probably time for a thread title update.
Soon. Many still expect a breakthrough. I think odds of a breakthrough keep falling but it seems unimaginable they won't settle on something. It'd likely be the end of the Democratic party controlling any chamber in Congress for years. People simply won't turn out if you can't get it done. We are already seeing this in the Virginia governor's race. It'll probably be a solid benchmark/glimpse of what inaction costs them.
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Zaxxon »

I'm referring to the news today that the core climate pieces are likely out (they had already been greatly gutted). If that's true, the administration is a failure, full stop.
User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 43690
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Kraken »

Biden let slip that free community college isn't going to make it, either.

An optimist might argue that passing an anemic reconciliation bill now sets up a reason to elect more Dems to finish the agenda later. Reconciliation can be done once a year (unless the parliamentarian gives you a freebie, as she did for the debt ceiling), right? If the spending bill is muted, then so too will the tax increases be. That leaves a lot of wiggle room for a second pass. Their message after passing this one has to be "let us finish the job."

I'm not that optimist. They aren't going to get a second chance with a wider majority...unless they also pass voting reform, which ain't gonna happen.
Drazzil
Posts: 4723
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:54 pm

Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Drazzil »

gbasden wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:20 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:51 am Yeah that's the thing. It's most likely Americans living abroad but it's just another indicator how gross this whole thing is. She won't meet actual constituents. She won't explain her position to the press. Raising money from rich people who actively are destroying our country? She'll fly to Europe for that. This is why I at least have sympathy for the 'Drazzil' position. It isn't like these people aren't out there actively earning the scorn.
Oh, I totally have the feels that at least half of Congress and the people that enable them should be put up against the wall. My lizard brain wants it very badly. I just know that it would make whatever course we are on worse.
Well not lining them up against a wall hasn't worked so far. If lining them up against the wall does not work we'll be down half a congresses full of scumbags.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16436
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Zarathud »

And you’ll have a Congress full up with fascists.

Cutting your own throat seems to be your political battle cry, Drazzil.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
Post Reply