Bring Back the Draft?

[Holman]

I'm starting to think we should reinstate the draft, and not only for military branches but also for police.

Hear me out.

The political and social culture of the military and the police ought to reflect America. The WW2/Korea/Vietnam draft produced a military that more or less did so, and (as it turned out) it sent home a couple of generations of veterans who saw very clearly that the militarization of American culture and politics and foreign policy was a bad thing. (Most of the counter-cultural writers and thinkers of the 1940s and 50s and 60s had military experience, and they and their colleagues' experience drove the coming of the Civil Rights era and the Great Society reforms.)

Proponents of the all-volunteer military point to its recovery from Vietnam-era malaise, but we have to assume that that malaise had more to do with the unpopularity of the war than with the draft alone. After all, shouldn't a democracy engage only in wars that the citizens support?

The police, meanwhile, have always been an all-volunteer force, and its not hard to see that they have almost always formed a reactionary bulwark against progressive change. The degree to which they more or less align with right-wing militias today is a flashing warning sign.

So suppose we drafted soldiers/marines/airmen/etc *and* cops? Young people would assume that they might be called upon for a four-year term of service after high school, but they could expect training and then benefits and educational support afterwards. The most talented might be drawn to a career in service, while the untalented could be readily washed out because the draft would ensure replacements.

What about it?

[dbt1949]

I remember the attitudes of those who were drafted. To say it as not great is an understatement.
There is a shortage of troops right now that's true. And a lot of those who are enlisting are joining because they're running out of options on the home front. So lesser quality.
I cannot believe drafting would be too popular with the people of our country. I'm not sure if there is any drafting in any countries in the "free" world.
Perhaps draft them but don't send them into combat.
Personally I would be against it.

[Holman]

I remember the attitudes of those who were drafted. To say it as not great is an understatement.
There is a shortage of troops right now that's true. And a lot of those who are enlisting are joining because they're running out of options on the home front. So lesser quality.
I cannot believe drafting would be too popular with the people of our country. I'm not sure if there is any drafting in any countries in the "free" world.
Perhaps draft them but don't send them into combat.
Personally I would be against it.

I hear you. But I think the 60s were a different time, and the war was unpopular.

I guess the question is (to take the cop example), Is it better to staff and train the police with a wide range of citizens or with a self-selected force? I think the answer is obvious.

[Smoove_B]

I am not keen on a draft, exactly. I do think there should be some type of path for service though - one that we can encourage by offering free tuition. Similar to ROTC but better in the sense that you can do other things - working/volunteering in public service. They'd need to figure out how to have a potential large group of firefighters, EMTs, community liaisons, etc... but I do think instilling service is good. Not only for building a sense of community but for the actual value it provides.

I've been seeing this for over a decade now as I train younger folks. There's no interest or connection in going into public service of any kind quite frankly because of the abysmal salary. Spending $90K+ on a college degree to earn entry level public servant wages is madness. If they had loan forgiveness for public service and/or better transitional programs for High School graduates that want to earn tuition first, I think that would be better.

I'm really hesitant to mandate it though, even though it would probably help to address so many issues. I guess my main concern is that I don't want to create a military / police funnel. But anything that would help siphon off the college funnel would be ideal - and I'm saying that as someone that collects a paycheck from a public university.

It's a good thought exercise though.

[dbt1949]

I believe the military gives a good chunk of change now for those who go into combat arms.

[Smoove_B]

They do, I'm just philosophically opposed to the idea of putting someone into a position where they're forced to fight for money. If someone could get similar benefits by being an EMT or firefighter? Build homes with Habitat for Humanity? And sure, I know there are other jobs in the military that don't involve front line combat, but I genuinely don't know what % of recruits are selected out of those positions.

[Holman]

They do, I'm just philosophically opposed to the idea of putting someone into a position where they're forced to fight for money. If someone could get similar benefits by being an EMT or firefighter? Build homes with Habitat for Humanity? And sure, I know there are other jobs in the military that don't involve front line combat, but I genuinely don't know what % of recruits are selected out of those positions.

A very large majority (maybe 80-90%) of service members are in support roles, so much so that front-line fighters characterize them as "POGs" ("People Other than Grunts"). Of course there are situations where (as in Afghanistan and Iraq) truck drivers and base support troops come under regular life-threatening fire.

But all the same, the military needs citizens. In WW2, positions were made available for those who objected to serving in combat for religious reasons but did not apply for full Conscientious Objector status. My grandfather was one of these, and he served as a medical orderly in Tunisia, France, Belgium, and Germany. I'm certain that he saved front-line soldiers' lives.

It's not hard to imagine a culture where young people choose their route of post-high-school national service, training, and benefits.

[Smoove_B]

I think I'd be more comfortable with it if they could detail out how they would address these things and not target groups or populations for dangerous work while making sure all the wealthy white kids are working as scribes.

Generally speaking I do think there is value in service; I just don't know exactly how you mandate it and then make sure it's not being abused.

[Jaymann]

That's a hard pass good buddy.

[Holman]

That's a hard pass good buddy.

Why, though?

Right now we're getting a military culture and a military-to-police pipeline that tends towards (and supports) Authoritarianism.

What if the troops and the cops better represented American society?

[Jaymann]

That's a hard pass good buddy.

Why, though?

I lived through the draft and it's a fricking nightmare.

[Kraken]

That's a hard pass good buddy.

Why, though?

That's sorta the ultimate violation of personal/bodily autonomy, isn't it?

Now, if we mandated two years of public service *in the service of one's choice*, be that the military or lawn forcement or social work or the civilian conservation corps or the peace corps or what have you, AND we rewarded completing such tours of duty with, say, two years of free public college, then you'd have my ear. I wouldn't oppose mandating public service if we each got to choose the nature of that service. If the only options involve uniforms and guns (military or LEO), then nope nope nope.

[dbt1949]

When I was in the service I joined the army and got out because I was sick and tired of it. The jobs GIs we were promised weren't there. So I went in the air force. The draft was pretty much over by then but I don't think anybody in the air force was ever drafted.
Anyrate back to my main point..........When I first went in we got about $100 a month. We got raises and eventually got like $288 by the time I got out. I had a good friend who was drafted, he was an architect, and made $24,000 a year which was rich by the standards of the day. He could have been making $24,000 a year as a civilian but was making less than $2,000 a year in the service. Had nothing to do with Vietnam it had to do with the peasant wages. That's why he was unhappy.
What do service personal make now a days? Will congress allow them a substantial raise?

[stessier]

I'm not sure if there is any drafting in any countries in the "free" world.

Israel and Germany were two that immediately came to mind, but a quick check shows Germany ended the draft in 2011. This shows the situation everywhere in the world.

[Holman]

I'm not sure if there is any drafting in any countries in the "free" world.

Israel and Germany were two that immediately came to mind, but a quick check shows Germany ended the draft in 2011. This shows the situation everywhere in the world.

I believe Norway, Sweden, and Finland all have a draft.

[dbt1949]

I know everybody (males) in Switzerland has to spend some time in the military.

[Sudy]

I don't think you see the required amount of reform using this bottom-up method. Or at least, it won't come nearly fast enough. Too many strings are pulled from above and beyond. The existing hierarchy would wither, crush, or infect the new blood.

No one should ever be forced to go into combat for a corrupt nation and military. Or even a virtuous nation. But I'm an antimilitarist, near-pacifist, weenie idealist millennial.

Compulsory service in non-violent public services? I think it would be good for most people. But it also feels... less free. Is it worth it? Primary and secondary education are already mandatory. What's another couple years gaining real-world experience (or something closer to it) in service and support of the state. Well, the horribly corrupt state. If you work in another branch of public service, aren't you still complicit by degree? Who cares, it's mandatory.

[Holman]

The real issue is the growing cultural disconnect between those who choose military service and the rest of society.

I started with the proposition that it was better when the military was (due to the WW2/Korea/Vietnam draft) made up of a cross-section of America rather than the self-selected "warrior culture" we're seeing today.

An even more severe warrior-culture problem afflicts our police forces, and we all know what results from that.

If the draft is off the table, what other solutions are available?

[Pyperkub]

There's also a huge disconnect in the wars we've been fighting.

Blood for Oil has definitely been a thing, do we really want to trust these leaders with the draft which will turn into a tool where every diplomatic issue will have idle troops as the first option?

[Blackhawk]

Given who is likely to be holding the reins, I'm very hesitant over anything that will dramatically increase the strength of the military, or guarantee by law that casualties will be replaced (thus making them more expendable.) I like that, except in times of crisis, the government has to earn service from its citizenry. It's incentive for the government not to get involved in wars unless absolutely necessary, not to throw lives away for frivolous cuases, to treat soldiers (and veterans) better, and so forth.

Bring back the draft in the current (and possible near-future) political environment, and you remove much of the pressure on the government to not abuse the military.

[dbt1949]

Thank god that didn't happen in my time.

[Kraken]

Given who is likely to be holding the reins, I'm very hesitant over anything that will dramatically increase the strength of the military, or guarantee by law that casualties will be replaced (thus making them more expendable.) I like that, except in times of crisis, the government has to earn service from its citizenry. It's incentive for the government not to get involved in wars unless absolutely necessary, not to throw lives away for frivolous cuases, to treat soldiers (and veterans) better, and so forth.

Bring back the draft in the current (and possible near-future) political environment, and you remove much of the pressure on the government to not abuse the military.

I don't think a draft would increase the strength of the military. Rather, it would degrade if a substantial part of the force was there unwillingly and leaving ASAP. The people who want to be soldiers are going to be a lot better at it. Of course that leads to a significant percentage of the force being militants, which is the dilemma. But I don't think diluting them with draftees is the way to counter that problem. The military is really really good at indoctrination -- at tearing recruits down and rebuilding them -- so maybe you can reprogram the deplorables if your training is designed to do that.

[dbt1949]

I knew guys in the army that got bad conduct and dishonorable discharges just so they could get out. They knew once they got out they weren't going to have jobs that cared about such references anyways.

[waitingtoconnect]

I would suggest that a mandatory spell in the peace corps or some form of local community service would be much better. Entering military service or service as a police, fire fighter or paramedic voluntarily would negate the need to take up this service.

Firstly it could improve people's lives in America and reduce social fracture. It would also restore people's sense of community. Overseas postings could also be offered.

Also bone spurs couldn't be used as an excuse to avoid this service.

[dbt1949]

I knew a guy in the peace corps 35 years ago but I don't know if it's still around. It's pretty back breaking work and except for the getting killed part the army would be a better option.

[Holman]

I lived next door to a young couple who met and married during their Peace Corps service in the 1990s. They were in a very impoverished country in Africa (sub-Saharan but I forget which). They both described it as a very meaningful experience.

[malchior]

I'm in support of something partially involuntary that is broader than just military service. We live in a dangerous world - pacifism is not realistic and we have to have a defense. But I'd like to see expanded opportunity to serve the nation in a wider capacity in national defense and civilian service. Particularly one that gives people a sense of civic duty and builds a path that reduces demand on higher educations and lowers generational debt levels. It might even turn into something broadly voluntarily if it found footing. Unfortunately this is way too grand a vision for a nation this broken and dysfunctional. We don't dream anymore. Heck we don't have decency or values anymore.

[Zarathud]

Forcing young people into unpaid work isn’t going to help the labor market. I think it might be well intended but problematic. You might be providing troops for the conservatives graduating from their home religious school.l

[malchior]

Why would it be unpaid?

[Pyperkub]

I would suggest that a mandatory spell in the peace corps or some form of local community service would be much better. Entering military service or service as a police, fire fighter or paramedic voluntarily would negate the need to take up this service.

Firstly it could improve people's lives in America and reduce social fracture. It would also restore people's sense of community. Overseas postings could also be offered.

Also bone spurs couldn't be used as an excuse to avoid this service.

IMHO, you're on the right track, just tie it to student loan forgiveness for public universities. Americorps/Peace Corps/Teaching/other. That way it's not a draft, but a win-win across the board (save for predatory student loan businesses).

Private Universities? You might be able to convince me, but off the top of my head, I'm not interested in subsidizing them with Gov't loans/loan forgiveness.