HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

But you'll still come out to my place and hook me up with free HBO for a c-note, right?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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I will be sad when free HBO Max goes away. Not sad enough to pay for it, but still sad.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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hepcat wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:35 pm But you'll still come out to my place and hook me up with free HBO for a c-note, right?
The HBO is fine, but I'm a bit concerned about what you think the "Max" is.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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It's a like the Triple Lindy, right?
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Rumpy »

I'm kind of wondering what the point of a 4th season is with this show. I felt that Season 3 was tying up a lot of loose ends that seemed pretty definite. It felt like the final season of a series that had already peaked.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Sudy »

I don't really have a problem with this series going off the rails or putting on airs because it's times more interesting and artistic than a lot of the other popular stuff on the air. I admit I don't remember everything that happened in season three, but much of what I do was fascinating even if the storytelling wasn't always satisfying.

I keep seeing comments that the show should have stayed in the park or ended after season one or two, and that may have been its peak, but that would also mean we'd have no more show or the premise probably would have been played out by this point. When something is good it deserves to be pushed.

The show does have complexity issues, but it seems like people actively root against it.

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

I don’t think people are “actively rooting against it” as much as just disappointed that the story wasn’t as strong. I want Westworld to succeed, to push itself to new heights. But I didn’t see that in season 3. What I saw was an attempt to move outside the confines of the park, which also meant leaving behind the structure that that lended to the narrative. If they’d had a better script they could have made it work by making that a strength, but they didn’t and couldn't.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by malchior »

As someone who didn't finish Season 3, the main problem we had was that mid-season 2 the story started going off the rails. At best it was very messy. By the beginning of season 3 it was becoming hopelessly convoluted and the charm had faded significantly for us. I know the showrunners consider themselves auteurs and it was supposed to be confusing. However, it just didn't balance confusing with enough reward to make it worth it. If people wow over season 4, maybe it'll get a re-watch but there are plenty of better shows to watch in the meantime.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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hepcat wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:27 pm I don’t think people are “actively rooting against it” as much as just disappointed that the story wasn’t as strong. I want Westworld to succeed, to push itself to new heights. But I didn’t see that in season 3. What I saw was an attempt to move outside the confines of the park, which also meant leaving behind the structure that that lended to the narrative. If they’d had a better script they could have made it work by making that a strength, but they didn’t and couldn't.
Yeah, this. I'm not exactly rooting against it, but I do admit to being disappointed with season 2 and 3. There were only a handful of good episodes in season 2, and the one that stands out to me is the one with the Native American telling his story, also because at that point, it was a tonal shift and a self-contained story that was also simpler, and to me it showed that they didn't need to be complex. All they needed was to tell a good story. But everything needed to be obfuscated. And season 3 was a season-long disappointment. I felt their present-day story or whatever it is, wasn't nearly as interesting as it should have been. It feels like a series that has gotten worse as it's went along. Plus, I find the very concept of 'hosts' not being able to die off robs the show of some narrative tension. Half the cast are the hosts, and if you know they can't die, then there's no tension of characters being killed off if you know they can simply re-appear ad-infinitum.

And Meave had one of the best storylines in the entire show. And I was frustrated when they seemingly dropped it. Her character from then on was meandering.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Kraken »

You know what would take this show to the next level? Robot Yul Brenner.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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If you just want him to stand there and not do much of anything, you could get Robot Mark Wahlberg...which is basically just Mark Wahlberg.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Smoove_B »

S4 official trailer; starts 6/26

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by ImLawBoy »

Watched the first episode of season 4 last night. My problem is that it's been so long I didn't really remember how things wrapped up before. It starts off promising enough, but too early to give it a thumbs up or down.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

Me at first: I guess I’ll give it a try.

Me after 10 straight minutes of evil Ed Harris: Well played, Westworld. You win for now.

P.S. Aaron Paul has spent the last 20 years looking like he was 18. Now he looks like he just turned 30. Lucky bastard.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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So, a real case of 18 going on 30? :D
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

I know there’s a painting of Aaron Paul out there that looks 50.

Ed Harris though? He’s looked 40 since he was 9. And I don’t think he would have it any other way.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Smoove_B »

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:29 am My problem is that it's been so long I didn't really remember how things wrapped up before.


I'm helping!

I started the episode, but was too tired to finish. I've found that shows like Westworld really take a lot of focus and I need to start them earlier in the night.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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hepcat wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:56 pm Ed Harris though? He’s looked 40 since he was 9. And I don’t think he would have it any other way.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Sudy »

I'm enjoying this season so far. The show is still beautifully expansive and cinematic, and I'm happy to get to explore the outside world's clean, green, menacing dystopia. I presume there was an intentional mini-reboot and plot threads may have been simplified. (But not too much.) But some aspects of the story feel a little silly at times, and I'm worried things will turn goofy. I feel the show's at its best when it's being ambitious (even if season three was chaos, I found its elements compelling); this feels more like an appeasement. The recycling of so many characters and actors can be exhausting (even though that's part of the show's shtick), even for those of us who watched recaps.

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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I’m enjoying this season far more than the last season. Season 3 felt, for the most part, like an uninspired short story by a high school student recently off a Gibson kick who was obsessed with trying to be politically edgy. This season is more straightforward, while still holding a few cards close to its vest. It’s narratively more cohesive (so far). And it’s remembered that the denizens of this world (and the Sublime) are the important part of the story, not the tech. It is a bit “Matrix-y” at times, but not overly so.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Sudy »

Season 4, Episode 4:
Spoiler:
So, that big twist was really cool. (It reminded me of season two of Mr. Robot.) I'm still really enjoying this. I love layered, mind-bending stuff. But... I'm having a big problem figuring out the stakes, rules, and character motivations. Some of that's just a memory problem; despite the half-hour recap I watched before starting the season, there are too many nuances I don't remember from the previous ones. And this series doesn't handhold. But between a second time jump and everyone's shifting identities, things remain ridiculously convoluted.

What are Maeve's powers exactly? Other than being godlike with technology and doing whatever the plot demands. What about regular hosts? Doesn't Dolores-Tessa Thompson have superhuman abilities? Why is she just letting past Maeve/Jesse walk all over her? Unless that was part of the plan (in the past), but I can't piece it together at this point. The plague and control mechanism is incredibly creepy like something out of a good X-Files episode (or Dark City), but there's little suggestion as to how it functions so it feels disconnected from the reality of the series. So Dolores-Tessa Thompson just controls the world now? Or the city? Or what? I thought hepcat's The Matrix comparison was undue, but geez, the last scene in this episode is straight from it.

When do bullets actually hurt? When does death matter? How am I supposed to connect with a world without a consistent reality? Why bother getting invested when the rug's just going to be pulled out from beneath you? Nothing can be trusted.

A comparison to the Matrix sequels might indeed be apt, if it wasn't already being made after last season. We're now halfway through this season and it's all been setup without any clear goalposts emerging. But the villain's path is sure feeling like Agent Smith bullshit. I'm still enjoying the show, but I can't tell if it's good art or bad television.

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

I didn’t think it was that convoluted.
Spoiler:
Caleb is an experiment like Delos from season 2. They’re trying to create a host that has all the memories of the original human it’s based on. Why? I think that’s going to be revealed as we continue.

Charlotte won and successfully mind controls the world of 2083. She’s turned humans into the hosts at the original Westworld for all intents and purposes. That’s the reality. It’s not inconsistent, in my view. They lay it all out near the end of the episode.

Bernard was in the sublime for longer than 7 years. He was in there while Charlotte took over. His time in the Sublime has made him a precog, basically. This one I’m not as sold on as I find it a little hard to believe that a computer running through simulation after simulation after simulation for a few decades could nail down what’s going to happen moment to moment, but it’s science fiction. I’ll give it some leeway there.

Maeve has always been sort of a deus ex machina in this show. Her powers wax and wane according to the story’s needs. Just think of her like Westworld’s version of Q from Star Trek.

Delores is the one I’m most curious about now. What did Charlotte do to her? Did Charlotte do something to her? Did Maeve or someone send Teddy 2 to “wake her up”, thus unleashing the other superpowered host from the first few seasons?

I’m sure we’ll get most, if not all the answers. But unlike last season, I’m genuinely curious where the story is going now.

The “goalposts” for this season are easily recognized: either Maeve and/or Delores defeat Charlotte and humans are eventually freed, or Charlotte wins and season 5 is dismal.

Edit: one thing I forgot to mention: the man in black bought all that storage space in the first episode of this season, then in this last episode hints that he did something to everyone in the Sublime (which is what I assume all that storage space was for). That’s a huge mystery I can’t wait to see resolved.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Sudy »

Yeah, I understand most of the plot points and realize it's only half over. It just feels less and less grounded as it progresses to me, like the show has almost shifted sub-genres. Perhaps my problem is more with the pacing. Goalposts was the wrong term; I see where it's heading (and it seems kind of trite), but so many of the characters' goals are cloaked or shifting. Which I guess is what I want out of a premium drama, but it can still feels frenetic and disorganized to me.
Spoiler:
I get that it's the theme of the show, but at this point almost all of the principal characters have switched or morphed identities. I'm not confused by it like grandpa or something; I just find it to dilute storytelling focus.

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

I think the characters have grown and evolved over the course of 3 seasons. A show full of characters who are static is the death of a good story.
Spoiler:
I think the characters can be summarized thusly:

Maeve started as an unaware host, became aware and realized she was a slave, worked to free her people, but never wanted genocide when it came to humans. She just wanted freedom.

Delores is basically Maeve, but with a desire for revenge...which eventually was quelled last season. She's now apparently an amnesiac after the final events of the last episode of season 3 (her memories were stripped from her by Serac).

The Man in Black was a human in search of immortality through hosts, now he's a prisoner and the Man in Black out in the world is just a host under the control of Charlotte.

Charlotte was the human head of Delos, then she got offed by Bernard and replaced by a host created by him to carry Delores into the outside world. As we learned previously, there were more than one Charlotte hosts created though. The one we're seeing in season 4 obviously really hates humans.

Caleb is (well...was) a human who kind of acts as our viewpoint in this story of hosts. He also tends to cause hosts to see that not all humans are bad.

Bernard straddles the two worlds of humans and hosts. He was a human who wanted hosts to gain sentience, but eventually was recreated as a host. Now he works to keep both sides alive. He's kind of like Maeve in many ways.

The only one that I could see as shifting constantly would be Charlotte, but that's because there's more than one Charlotte.
The previous season I complained about the focus of the story shifting from the smaller world of the island to the rest of the world. I felt at the time that the story was being pulled in too many directions. This season seems to be building on the last, while maintaining a tighter narrative. We still have half a season to go though. Hopefully it won't go off the rails.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Sudy »

That's a thoughtful analysis. I'm just saying:
Spoiler:
There are plenty of shows that maintain character growth through four seasons without resorting to twists of "Hey, I'm a robot now!" or "I'm a copy now!" It was interesting the first few times. (Though there are also a lot of shows getting stale by season four.) Now it seems like some kind of comment on the transposability of identity, or just a cheap trick. As well, the show needs more and deeper villains than what Hale's become. Most of Ed Harris's henchman role this season seems like a waste of his abilities, even if the role reversal is kind of interesting. But turning reality on its head and essentially turning all of humanity into hosts feels a little one-note and on the nose to me.

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

Sudy wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:55 pm That's a thoughtful analysis. I'm just saying:
Spoiler:
There are plenty of shows that maintain character growth through four seasons without resorting to twists of "Hey, I'm a robot now!" or "I'm a copy now!"
But that's kind of the whole point of a show that's built entirely around the concept of robots designed to look like people. :wink:
Spoiler:

I kind of like the role reversal that's not just about a person, but rather an entire world at this point. Charlotte has made humans the hosts in a global version of Westworld (even though it is basically just a rehash of Planet of the Apes). I'm curious to see what she does now if not stopped.

As for the rest of the show?

I think the real story will be "what happened to the Sublime?". As well as "which side is Delores on now?".

Side stories I'm looking forward to are "how much ass will the human Man in Black whup when he gets free?". And "is Bernard God now?".
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Sudy »

I enjoyed this episode a lot. I still don't care for the scope and relative discohesion of the plot, but it was nice to spend another episode with a smaller set of characters now that most of their paths and identities have solidified. I don't think eight episode isn't enough for this story, but perhaps I'm confusing abbreviation with efficiency. I like that the episode spent so much time outside, it's an exceptionally cinematic show. Two nice covers in this one.
Spoiler:
It's The Matrix, but it's still pretty interesting.

They're sure getting their money's worth out of Evan Rachel Wood. She plays a different character each season.

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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I mostly agree with you. Although I don't think the show suffers from a lack of cohesiveness. If anything, they've scaled the story down from the last season into a much more digestible one. We know what the stakes are this time around. They're not nearly as blurred as last season.
Spoiler:
It really is the Matrix...but with the addition that we know what the machine masters went through before they turned on the humans. It adds a bit more depth to the admittedly derivative story.

The wild card for me is still Dolores. But I suspect after this last episode she's going to team up with the newly unearthed Maeve and the soon to be unfrozen Man in Black to administer a beat down on the decidedly inhuman Charlotte (who has assumed the "bored God" role, something that NEVER ends well for humans). However, who sent Teddy to Dolores? My money is on Dolores herself via some fail safe method she put into place previously.

I'm enjoying it, even if they sideline Bernard too much, in my opinion.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by em2nought »

I think Dark Winds stole Westworld's theme music :think:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by $iljanus »

hepcat wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:42 pm I mostly agree with you. Although I don't think the show suffers from a lack of cohesiveness. If anything, they've scaled the story down from the last season into a much more digestible one. We know what the stakes are this time around. They're not nearly as blurred as last season.
Spoiler:
It really is the Matrix...but with the addition that we know what the machine masters went through before they turned on the humans. It adds a bit more depth to the admittedly derivative story.

The wild card for me is still Dolores. But I suspect after this last episode she's going to team up with the newly unearthed Maeve and the soon to be unfrozen Man in Black to administer a beat down on the decidedly inhuman Charlotte (who has assumed the "bored God" role, something that NEVER ends well for humans). However, who sent Teddy to Dolores? My money is on Dolores herself via some fail safe method she put into place previously.

I'm enjoying it, even if they sideline Bernard too much, in my opinion.
So in regards to your last question…
Spoiler:
If Teddy was sent to the Valley Beyond at the end of season two I’m thinking it’s the enlightened hosts themselves who decided to send Teddy to our world to tip the probability scales a bit. I mean Bernard is a smart cookie and all but they may also want a little insurance. I also wonder if their endgame is to just gather all the remaining hosts on Earth and bring them to the Valley Beyond so they can reach their true potential free from humans?
And I have a question about the post scene in season 2…
Spoiler:
William was being questioned for fidelity in what looked like a facility in the future that’s been partially covered in sand. They don’t really come back to this in season 3 but I was wondering if it’s going to come into play in season 4 or 5 where the resistance is going to create a William of their own? There’s a lot of sand in season 4…

Edit: Oooh I forgot that season 4 Maeve locked William in a death grip. Perhaps that season 2 post scene will become relevant sooner than later…?

Keeping it vague but I’ll confess that having a chair on demand is pretty damn cool.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

I am in awe of Jeffrey Wright’s ability to embody world weariness and tragic resignation in every word, bodily movement and the way he glances at people while not actually looking at them. Just watch him. You’ll see what I mean.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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hepcat wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:58 pm I am in awe of Jeffrey Wright’s ability to embody world weariness and tragic resignation in every word, bodily movement and the way he glances at people while not actually looking at them. Just watch him. You’ll see what I mean.
Stubbs is a perfect counterpoint to his character. I'd watch a spinoff with those two!
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

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Stubbs is one of those ubiquitous Hemsworth kids.

But yeah, I do like their chemistry. Very funny.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Sudy »

Finally caught up with the final two episodes of the season. I enjoyed this season... it was definitely a lot more narratively focused. But I still think it suffered the at this point multitudes of character evolutions. I found it hard to remember all the details with a week between each episode, never mind previous seasons.
Spoiler:
It definitely felt like a series finale. As I understand it a fifth and final season is planned, but hasn't yet been approved. As a season finale I think it's... OK. As a series finale I'd be fairly frustrated. Good Dolores's conscious re-emergence was a nice way to tie everything up, but the last couple of episodes were a total deconstruction of the series and its characters and I don't know that they did them all justice. Every season of this series has been meaningful and quality storytelling to me, but it's hard to argue that the series lost its way and possibly has aspired to too much. In that sense I think The Matrix comparisons are particularly apt, even if the Matrix sequels were far more frustrating and disappointing, personally.

Not knowing when or if someone is truly dead used to be one of the best parts of the show, but at this point it causes me not to take any of the deaths seriously, and there were a lot of meaningful ones at the end of the season. If the final season winds up being the ultra-existential, post-singularity semi-reset I expect it will be, I suspect most remaining viewers will wish the show ended after the first or second season, if they don't already. These high-concept series always run out of juice and begin to repeat themselves if they're not carefully planned. They also suffer from splitting the characters off into segregated side-plots that don't feel nearly as cohesive.

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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by telcta »

Cancelled by HBO. I lost interest the past few seasons but probably would watch another season.

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Smoove_B
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Smoove_B »

:(

I actually enjoyed all the seasons overall. This last season in particular was good, though I can appreciate it probably wasn't "revolutionary" enough in terms of drawing people in and I'd imagine production costs are off the charts.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by Rumpy »

I'm not surprised. To be honest, I would have been happy with it ending after two seasons. I didn't expect it to get a 3rd, let alone a 4th season. It's a series that has gotten less and less appealing.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by ImLawBoy »

I definitely would have watched a final season (I thought this last season rebounded nicely), but I'm not surprised it was cancelled. It looks like it's probably very expensive to produce and I think the viewership was way down for Season 4.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by naednek »

I started the latest season but haven't returned. Wonder if I should bother. Wasn't really interested in this or last season.
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Re: HBO remakes Westworld into tv series...Abrams / Nolan

Post by hepcat »

The last season is a nice send off, if you ask me. It pretty much closes the story in a neat enough fashion.
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