The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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malchior
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

On another front, this piece by Maggie Haberman is ... I don't even have words to describe it. She just throws out random guesses about why Trump kept the documents. And somehow that is a news piece nowadays.

All of her speculative guesses are just variants of Trump is non-serious. To wit, along the lines of: he's a packrat who loves having classified material in his possession, he thinks he is King, he routinely mishandled classified documents, or he thinks it's personal information. That made the top of page on nytimes.com. Apparently the NY Times has decided to just join the circus. I tend to align with these explanations but a serious analysis can't discount that he was going to misuse them intentionally. Unless you are Maggie Haberman and then you ignore that possibility completely. :roll:
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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It's not like this guy stood on the stage with Putin and said he trusted him more than the US intelligence. I seriously don't know how got/gets away with that kind of shit.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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It's not like this guy stood on the stage with Putin and said he trusted him more than the US intelligence. I seriously don't know how got/gets away with that kind of shit.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Alefroth »

Even in redacted form, I hope the order is appealed.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

malchior wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:43 pmEdit: Some folks are confused how SDNY isn't involved since this scheme involves federal taxes as well. Maybe they are and we don't know it yet.


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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Octavious »

It's almost like everyone involved with Trump are a bunch of crooks. So weird.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Isgrimnur »

CNN
Allen Weisselberg, the former chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, pleaded guilty Thursday to his role in a 15-year-long tax fraud scheme, and as part of the deal he has agreed to testify against former President Donald Trump's real estate company at trial.
...
Weisselberg pleaded guilty to 15 felonies and admitted he failed to pay taxes on $1.7 million in income, including luxury perks, such as rent and utilities for a Manhattan apartment, leases for a pair of Mercedes-Benz cars and private school tuition for his grandchildren.
...
As part of the deal, he will pay nearly $2 million in back taxes, interest and penalties and waive any right to appeal.
...
Judge Juan Merchan said Weisselberg would be sentenced after the Trump Organization's trial. He said the agreement was for a five-month sentence to be followed by five years of probation. The judge warned Weisselberg if he does not meet all the conditions of the plea agreement, "I would be at liberty to impose any lawful sentence which in your case includes imprisonment from 5 to 15 years."

The plea puts him at odds with the Trump Organization, where he worked for 40 years, and his testimony could damage the company, if it goes to trial on related tax charges as scheduled in October.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

The DOJ just lost an appeal in it's shockingly unethical attempt to cover up Barr's misconduct. The second tweet is right - it is indefensible. This would be a major scandal if the system wasn't in the midst of collapse. Unfortunately most people don't even know what's happening here which is a damn shame. It's infuriating how Garland has been covering up Barr misdeeds for the institutions sake. This was one of the worst episodes and according to many lawsplainers the district judge eviscerated their paper thin arguments and the appeals court agreed. Garland continues to be a massive disappointment.



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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

Trump pursuing this (he won't - he is stoking outrage) would however be a good test about how corrupt this system is.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

malchior wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:42 pm The DOJ just lost an appeal in it's shockingly unethical attempt to cover up Barr's misconduct. The second tweet is right - it is indefensible. This would be a major scandal if the system wasn't in the midst of collapse. Unfortunately most people don't even know what's happening here which is a damn shame. It's infuriating how Garland has been covering up Barr misdeeds for the institutions sake. This was one of the worst episodes and according to many lawsplainers the district judge eviscerated their paper thin arguments and the appeals court agreed. Garland continues to be a massive disappointment.
Yeah, this is absolutely disgraceful and has been pissing me off for a while now. Biden owns some of the blame here as well and is related to some of the odd "non-actions" regarding several awful Trump appointees still pulling strings that should not be IMO.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

malchior wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:54 am Trump pursuing this (he won't - he is stoking outrage) would however be a good test about how corrupt this system is.

I hesitate to even mention this, but are we POSSIBLY starting to see some kind of karmic justice happening, or have the Dems finally figured out the game that has been set up, and decided to finally start playing (instead of just whining about how the rules have changed, or that the other player is cheating, etc)? :think:

To be fair, this particular instance is not a direct action by the J6 committee or Dems, but DJT and friends sure seem to running into problems for themselves that they (or their line of thinking) created. Lots of recent own goals might be more accurate. It's like they set up the system to work in their favor so they could punish the libs, and it seems to be backfiring a bit. :D
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

I think safer to say low chance of backfiring. Nothing has happened to him other than free publicity he is using to whip up the masses. But if it does backfire I'll cheer their shortsightedness.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Good to see that projection and random Capitalization is alive and well.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Carpet_pissr »

malchior wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:11 pm I think safer to say low chance of backfiring. Nothing has happened to him other than free publicity he is using to whip up the masses. But if it does backfire I'll cheer their shortsightedness.
Agree. Premature wishful thinking on my part. At this point we have a few J6 rioters in jail, and that's it.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by TheMix »

Jaymann wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:19 pm Good to see that projection and random Capitalization is alive and well.
Yeah. The use of "scammers" really stood out to me. I mean, who exactly are the FBI trying to scam? And what are they trying to get? Such an odd word to use. Unless you assume it's just the one he his most familiar with because it is... well, him.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Kraken »

I just wish that assclown would STFU and go away. I am so sick of his whining and lies. Maybe if his wing of the GOP wipes out in the midterms he and his patsies will be reduced to screaming from the sidelines.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

Kraken wrote:I just wish that assclown would STFU and go away. I am so sick of his whining and lies. Maybe if his wing of the GOP wipes out in the midterms he and his patsies will be reduced to screaming from the sidelines.
Biden was speaking for you too at the debate?
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Dramatist »

Kraken wrote:I just wish that assclown would STFU and go away. I am so sick of his whining and lies. Maybe if his wing of the GOP wipes out in the midterms he and his patsies will be reduced to screaming from the sidelines.
So much this!

I really think there is some momentum for picking up seats in the Senate. If some of the ultra MAGA senate candidates lose it might shut up Trump for a minute or two.


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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LordMortis »

Jaymann wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:19 pm Good to see that projection and random Capitalization is alive and well.
This
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

NY Times

Good lord. Apparently we are at the Trump appeasement stage of denial in elite land. This take is the epitome of the 'very serious person' opinion that makes a 'coastal elite' want to see the entirety of the elite pundit class fired into the sun. Damon Linker essentially exposes himself as a moral and ethical wreck.

IMO this piece is driven by his fear that his precious corrupt, broken system is on the verge of failure. I mean he says we need to move on because we survived a 'stress test' by getting through the Trump administration, the auto-coup, and 1/6! (To paraphrase) - 'We made it through the bad times so we should move on because the risks are too high to try to address the corruption. These people might revolt!' He seemingly is ignoring that bad times are ahead and doing nothing only continues to increase the risks he is worried about.

Douhat wrote a similar argument yesterday. The 'very serious people' see the war coming and think we can wish it away by hiding under the covers. They are fools. Unfortunately they are examples of the thinking of the elite who have led us here and may lead us into tyranny or civil war. Keep preparing. We're all on our own when our own Neville Chamberlain's have such loud voices.
Liberal excitement is understandable. Mr. Trump faces potential legal jeopardy from the Jan. 6 investigation in Congress and the Mar-a-Lago search. They anticipate fulfilling a dream going back to the earliest days of the Trump administration: to see him frog-marched to jail before the country and the world.

But this is a fantasy. There is no scenario following from the present that culminates in a happy ending for anyone, even for Democrats.

Down one path is the prosecution of the former president. This would be a Democratic administration putting the previous occupant of the White House, the ostensible head of the Republican Party and the current favorite to be the G.O.P. presidential nominee in 2024, on trial. That would set an incredibly dangerous precedent. Imagine, each time the presidency is handed from one party to the other, an investigation by the new administration’s Justice Department leads toward the investigation and possible indictment of its predecessor.

Some will say that Mr. Trump nonetheless deserves it — and he does. If Mr. Garland does not press charges against him for Jan. 6 or the potential mishandling of classified government documents, Mr. Trump will have learned that becoming president has effectively immunized him from prosecution. That means the country would be facing a potential second term for Mr. Trump in which he is convinced that he can do whatever he wants with complete impunity.

...

But we’ve been through a version of the turbulent Trump experience before. During the Trump years, the system passed its stress test. We have reason to think it would do so again, especially with reforms to the Electoral Count Act likely to pass during the lame duck session following the upcoming midterm elections, if not before. Having to combat an emboldened Mr. Trump or another bad actor would certainly be unnerving and risky. But the alternatives would be too.

We caught a glimpse of those alternative risks as soon as the Mar-a-Lago raid was announced. Within hours, leading Republicans had issued inflammatory statements, and these statements would likely grow louder and more incendiary through any trial, both from Mr. Trump himself and from members of his party and its media rabble-rousers. (Though at a federal judge’s order a redacted version of the warrant affidavit may soon be released, so Mr. Trump and the rest of his party would have to contend with the government’s actual justification of the raid itself.)
Edit: It's been a few hours and I'm still astounded at how dumb this piece is. I mean it reads smart but it's smart dumb. Meaning he actually argues with a straight face this:
As we’ve seen over and over again since Mr. Trump won the presidency, our system of governance presumes a certain base level of public spiritedness — at the level of the presidency, in Congress and in the electorate at large. When that is lacking — when an aspersive figure is elected, when he maintains strong popular support within his party and when that party remains electorally viable — high-minded efforts to act as antibodies defending the body politic from the spread of infection can end up doing enduring harm to the patient. Think of all those times during the Trump presidency when well-meaning sources inside and outside the administration ended up undermining their own credibility by hyping threats and overpromising evidence of wrongdoing and criminality.
He seems to not see that the poison that is killing this nation is elite impunity. He ignores this to take a hard stance that this is a political problem that can't be solved through the legal system. Instead of recognizing the system itself might be corrupt he instead bins the whole idea. The obvious problem here he seems to be hand waving away leads to an internally incoherent position. He argues that the politics are too unstable to survive the legal system doing its job so we must rely on the political system to save us. That's what I mean by smart dumb. It sounds smart but he seems to be (wishfully) leaving out all the problems with his argument.

IMO I've long argued our path to surviving this worsening and intensifying crisis was a very tricky middle path with cooperation between our legal and political apparatus. We needed to use the legal system to restore faith in institutions broadly enough that we could restore stability. We also needed to also talk frankly about our political and systemic problems to get people to recognize the danger we are in. Unfortunately with folks taking Linker's approach, to wit, Biden, Garland, and a host of 'very serious people' we are doing none of these things and it looks like calamity is ahead.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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malchior wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:50 am NY Times

Good lord. Apparently we are at the Trump appeasement stage of denial in elite land. This take is the epitome of the 'very serious person' opinion that makes a 'coastal elite' want to see the entirety of the elite pundit class fired into the sun. Damon Linker essentially exposes himself as a moral and ethical wreck.
I just read the Linker piece. I don’t get your outrage, malchior. I mean, maybe I get it, but I don’t agree with it.

Linker’s piece isn’t advocating for appeasement. Not at all. It’s just laying out the obvious risks — serious, potentially stability-ending risks — of going down a path that leads to prosecuting Trump and possibly putting Trump behind bars while he’s simultaneously running to be POTUS.

I don’t agree with his conclusion that the risks are too great and that we should just beat Trump and the MAGAT movement at the ballot box, but I think the argument he makes is much more coherent than you do.

In the end, it seems clear to me that, above all else, we cannot move forward and get past Trump if the lesson learned is that POTUS (or anyone with enough power) is above the law. That mandates that Trump be prosecuted if the evidence is there and should overwhelmingly result in a conviction.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:07 pmLinker’s piece isn’t advocating for appeasement. Not at all. It’s just laying out the obvious risks — serious, potentially stability-ending risks — of going down a path that leads to prosecuting Trump and possibly putting Trump behind bars while he’s simultaneously running to be POTUS.
It's absolutely appeasement. It's essentially papering the path of the act of negotiating with the 'rebels' to prevent a civil war or uprising by giving Trump a grant of impunity and then hoping he gets rejected at the ballot box. Unfortunately, this is ignoring that rejection at the ballot box has been positioned as illegitimate as well. Or that Trump wins which again is end of game. That's the root of the incoherence in his argument in my opinion. Edit: Maybe incoherence is the wrong word but what I'm saying is his point becomes less clear and workable looking in the broader context. He thinks it is a political problem that can only be solved by the political process ignoring that the political process is looking increasingly unstable and unworkable.

Douhat made a similar argument with a twist. His take was essentially the case against Trump has to be a slam dunk *and* can't be seen as illegitimate. That's an impossible bar with a GOP that has gone haywire.

That's why I label this generally as appeasement. They are setting unreasonable ground conditions for the enforcement of the law premised in keeping them from acting out. And again I believe that elite unaccountability was a big component of what led us here in the first place. We're in a spiral where people's trust in the system broadly across the spectrum is far too low to maintain stability in nearly every institution.

I strongly believe that prosecuting Trump for the crimes that several experts said was a slam dunk (e.g. obstruction charges) would restore faith in the rule of law across a majority of the populace. For what it's worth, this is why I think Garland's DOJ unethically tried to cover up the Barr Mueller memos. They know the truth is that Trump should have been charged and don't want us to see that they are essentially appeasers themselves.

In the end, I agree with Linker (and many others) that prosecuting Trump is unprecedented and possibly dangerous. But it's more dangerous to not do so. We have a faction burning down the house. What's the point of appeasing them? It's mindless cowering or unwillingness to face reality. Or some range in between.
I don’t agree with his conclusion that the risks are too great and that we should just beat Trump and the MAGAT movement at the ballot box
Right and I'll further argue that you have to think down to the very foreseeable and logical ends of the argument to see how unworkable it is. He seems to be ignoring the wholesale rush for the GOP to dismantle democracy. He does tip his hat a little to this but hangs the future on a dubious patch. To wit, the Electoral Count Act fixes being passed. That's not a sure bet and it also presumes that it actually fixes the problem. Which it probably doesn't. In any case, he puts an incredible amount of faith on the dubious idea that the system held. The crisis is still here and he's a fool if he thinks otherwise. His model is a gossamer web of links that IMO doesn't seem to realistically weigh any of the risks individually much less as a complex whole. It's fantasy thinking that's IMO common amongst his sort.
In the end, it seems clear to me that, above all else, we cannot move forward and get past Trump if the lesson learned is that POTUS (or anyone with enough power) is above the law. That mandates that Trump be prosecuted if the evidence is there and should overwhelmingly result in a conviction.
Exactly but then we have people like Linker who are unreasonably optimistic about the crisis. This also is probably the wrong way to put it. Perhaps better phrased as unreasonably avoiding thinking about the most probable outcomes? In any case, it is an unwillingness to face that our system is in disastrous shape and those types are at the levers of power. That is where my outrage comes from. They think tiny fixes and getting people to vote are the balm when we are in an existential crisis that requires urgent ethical and moral conviction. And we as a nation seem to be unable to harness those forces. Instead we see attempts at bargaining through cynical action and hoping for the best against all odds. I've said it before I'm happy to be proved wrong but I am confident I won't be. That's why I'm preparing for a much worse future that seems more likely to come by the day.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by YellowKing »

Believing that "the system will hold" is what got us into this mess in the first place. It will hold until it doesn't.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo »

That there's no easy way out of this mess, and that any prosecution of Trump would be risky and painful, is pretty obvious. But among other things, since there's no way out of this mess without a fight of some sort, I'd rather have that fight sooner via a prosecution than have it in 2024 when Trump uses perfectly legal means to steal the election.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Kurth »

El Guapo wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:12 am That there's no easy way out of this mess, and that any prosecution of Trump would be risky and painful, is pretty obvious. But among other things, since there's no way out of this mess without a fight of some sort, I'd rather have that fight sooner via a prosecution than have it in 2024 when Trump uses perfectly legal means to steal the election.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

I also agree 100%. We'll see what happens but I reckon the people in charge are still acting like they govern a society that ceased to exist after 2016.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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What does it mean for Trump to file pro se but through lawyers?

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Ex parte!
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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stessier wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:03 pm What does it mean for Trump to file pro se but through lawyers?

I would guess it means he hired lawyers to write the motion and file it, but not to represent him past that. All Federal filings are required to be filed via PACER, which means a lawyer has to file it. So they probably entered a limited appearance just for that. That's just my guess though as it's highly unusual.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior »

It's not pro se - he roped some dope into representing him. A someone who hates to get paid at least. I'm sorta kidding but it is a guy named Evan Corcoran who apparently was an AUSA at some point.

Edit: Despite the pedigree several lawyers are saying it's basically a press release pretending to be a legal document.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LordMortis »

Google says he is/was Bannon's defense lawyer, was almost picked by Trump to be a part of "his" DOJ, and defended Trump during his second impeachment.

https://www.businessinsider.com/steve-b ... es-2021-11

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... -fbi-raid/
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Kurth »

stessier wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:03 pm What does it mean for Trump to file pro se but through lawyers?

Why did you think he filed pro se? He has local counsel in FL, and he has two additional out of state lawyers representing him. Fake news! :lol:
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Octavious »

Hmm almost seems like he might just be trying to stall them. Nahhhhhh
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Kurth wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:17 pm
stessier wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:03 pm What does it mean for Trump to file pro se but through lawyers?

Why did you think he filed pro se? He has local counsel in FL, and he has two additional out of state lawyers representing him. Fake news! :lol:
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Octavious »

It was updated later apparently with his Lawyer information. Saw that somewhere else.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Octavious wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:53 am It was updated later apparently with his Lawyer information. Saw that somewhere else.
Yeah, there was a 4 hour period where it was all over Twitter as pro se. Now there are lawyers' names attached.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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For some reason, Trump representing himself reminded me of that old Brady Bunch episode in which some guy claiming he got whiplash in an accident caused by one of the family is discredited during his presentation by Mike Brady throwing a briefcase on the floor, causing the guy with whiplash to suddenly turn his head completely.

Then I found this when I looked it up and I can't stop chuckling.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Unagi »

I’m confused. The document linked ends up being signed by 3 lawyers.


Ah. Ok. Never mind Just caught up.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by stessier »

NARA's letter to Trump. Why would Trump's side release this?

I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Running____2014: 1300.55 miles____2015: 2036.13 miles____2016: 1012.75 miles____2017: 1105.82 miles____2018: 1318.91 miles__2019: 2000.00 miles
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