This is what I was trying to get at. This is an example why you and not I should be helping the Democrats communicate through clear messaging.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:21 amActually, the original trolley dilemma would be a more accurate, and just as clear, image.stessier wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:47 amYou complain all the time about the Dems not know how to message, yet when presented with a clear image that demonstrates a point - not the whole point certainly, but the main thrust of an argument - you complain that it lacks all the shades of grey in the true situation.malchior wrote: ↑Thu Aug 25, 2022 7:09 pmIf the point is to mislead then sure it does that. It heavily implies there is no cost to take the clear track and that's simply not true. I have no problem helping folks but there are costs and pretending there aren't is unserious behavior.
The real case is not "this way saves everyone and that way doesn't." Buts that's what the updated image shows.
Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
- dbt1949
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Which changes over time. We had much better benefits when I was in the army than when I was in the air force ,one in particular.......used to be we had 3-4 years of college that was free and now you have to pay for it. Invest your own money.
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
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- Isgrimnur
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
There's a thread on reddit today about using the GI Bill for flight school. I volunteer to help separating military members transition to tech careers. A lot are using the GI Bill to pay for their education.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
I work with a lot of ex-military folks who use GI Bill to get cybersecurity training. Either higher education or certification adjacent (e.g. SANS).
- LawBeefaroni
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
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- Zaxxon
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
That might be the best use of that particular meme I've seen in some time.
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- Jaymann
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Only if you choose the correct trolley switch.
Jaymann
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Black Lives Matter
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- The Meal
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
I saw a Reddit comment referring to this response (actually MTG’s “go to hell” comment, but you know, close enough) as the GOP getting butthurt at getting owned by Dark Brandon.
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- LordMortis
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Wait, I thought good Christians were trying to keep people out of hell. That should be a nono for a God fearing woman like MTG. Oh, those frogs that scorpion is carrying on her venomous back. I rather doubt she has enough wealth and clout to be a citizen of the world. I wonder what her plans are if she ever sees her dream of collapsing the US come to fruition. Also this puts a different spin on her refusal to submit a budget for pork for district. She gets for herself but not the people who voted for her. That went from having principles to being lazy and not knowing how to be effective in a single demonstration.
Last edited by LordMortis on Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Holman
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
I'm like a high-schooler in terms of understanding the intricacies of economics, so I hope someone will answer me like I'm a pimply 16-year-old:
My understanding is that PPP was intended to allow employers to keep paying employees despite economic collapse, thus keeping those employees (and their economic activity) afloat until we got through the pandemic. It was understood from the beginning that these loans would be forgiven.
So how did so many congresspeople qualify for PPP loans? Does Matt Gaetz have a half-a-million-dollar staffing budget? Does Roger Williams (whoever the hell that is) pay $1.5 million worth of people?
As a follow-up, what percentage of PPP loans were used (as intended) to help workers stay afloat? Were there--as one might be given to suspect--shenanigans?
My understanding is that PPP was intended to allow employers to keep paying employees despite economic collapse, thus keeping those employees (and their economic activity) afloat until we got through the pandemic. It was understood from the beginning that these loans would be forgiven.
So how did so many congresspeople qualify for PPP loans? Does Matt Gaetz have a half-a-million-dollar staffing budget? Does Roger Williams (whoever the hell that is) pay $1.5 million worth of people?
As a follow-up, what percentage of PPP loans were used (as intended) to help workers stay afloat? Were there--as one might be given to suspect--shenanigans?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
They have/had businesses that received the loans.Holman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:03 pm I'm like a high-schooler in terms of understanding the intricacies of economics, so I hope someone will answer me like I'm a pimply 16-year-old:
My understanding is that PPP was intended to allow employers to keep paying employees despite economic collapse, thus keeping those employees (and their economic activity) afloat until we got through the pandemic. It was understood from the beginning that these loans would be forgiven.
So how did so many congresspeople qualify for PPP loans? Does Matt Gaetz have a half-a-million-dollar staffing budget? Does Roger Williams (whoever the hell that is) pay $1.5 million worth of people?
As a follow-up, what percentage of PPP loans were used (as intended) to help workers stay afloat? Were there--as one might be given to suspect--shenanigans?
Like most other bailouts, the majority of the money went to those that didn't need it. But it was moderately effective once all the grifting and outright fraud was done. In that about a quarter of the money went to save jobs.
St. Louis Fed
Only about one-quarter of PPP funds supported jobs that otherwise would have disappeared.
...
But was this money well spent? A recent study offers evidence that the cost of each job saved was very high and that most of the program’s benefits flowed to small-business owners, their creditors and their suppliers rather than to workers. Other crisis programs, including unemployment insurance and economic impact payments, were targeted much more successfully to wage earners.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
The math for a PPP loan was low intensity complex. Essentially a business owner added up all your payroll dollars spent in the last year capped at 100K per employee (I'm abstracting here - it was more complicated in reality), divide it by 12 to get a monthly amount and multiply by 2.5. Essentially they paid 2.5 months of salary for every employee up to a 100K. If you kept your business open for x amount of time the loan was forgiven. So you could abstract his payroll was about $7.2M a year not including dollars paid to individuals above $100K.
It was cash dumped from the sky. Of course it was massively abused. One economic analysis said only 25% of businesses (edit: hat tip to Lawbeef's quote above) were really at risk. That's still a depression level event so the fraud could be seen as a trade off. For example, my wife's former scumbag employer made soap. They made soap during a pandemic. That business was not at risk. They got a YUGE PPP loan. It all went into the owner's pocket. This isn't an exaggeration. He took that money and built a new plant in a low cost of labor area and moved the entire business for a further tax break. And put about 50 people out of work in the middle of a pandemic. Also people likely died to make him rich but that is just the power of the 'invisible hand'! Thanks Trump!As a follow-up, what percentage of PPP loans were used (as intended) to help workers stay afloat? Were there--as one might be given to suspect--shenanigans?
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
[Angelically naive]
Should congresspeople even have other jobs? Isn't there a risk that they'll abuse their government influence to benefit themselves and their partners?
[\Angelically naive]
Should congresspeople even have other jobs? Isn't there a risk that they'll abuse their government influence to benefit themselves and their partners?
[\Angelically naive]
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- Smoove_B
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
There is a gun store in my town that managed to secure close to $700K in PPP loans - completely forgiven. Allegedly ~$550K went to employees. We all remember how badly gun and liquor stores were doing during the pandemic, of course.
Unrelated (and I apologize for the derail), but you can look up PPP loan information here
While I get that it's not a 1:1 comparison to the student loan crisis, it does demonstrate that we're apparently willing to consider debt forgiveness. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that business owners (once again) come out ahead.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
[Angelically naive]
I am beginning to suspect that capitalism is not principally concerned with human welfare.
I am beginning to suspect that capitalism is not principally concerned with human welfare.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
But... but... but... Uncle Joe as "Dark Brandon." It's a hilarious re-branding.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
It seems relatively popular:
More details:
https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?ReleaseID=3854
Americans 53 - 43 percent approve of President Biden's plan to cancel some federal student loan debt for Americans earning less than $125,000 a year, with eligible borrowers forgiven $10,000 in federal student loan debt and those who received Pell Grants forgiven up to $20,000.
Democrats (88 - 9 percent) and independents (53 - 43 percent) approve of Biden's plan, while Republicans (81 - 14 percent) disapprove of his plan.
There are wide gaps when looking at age and race.
More details:
https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?ReleaseID=3854
- Carpet_pissr
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
FTFY
Also, the self employed and independent contractors were also eligible for PPP.
For reference, 35-40% of the country’s working population is doing freelance or independent contract work. Unsure how many of those (single employee companies) took out PPP loans, but they certainly could have
In fact I remember seeing a tweet from Mark Cuban urging all IC’s to apply ( I believe his tweet was geared to all the delivery peeps working for Amazon, grocery delivery, etc).
Last edited by Carpet_pissr on Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Jaymann
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
The loans were handled by certain banks and I think they were only authorized to lend so much. Individuals who qualified found out that larger institutions with better relationships with the banks had already taken all the available funds. It was a big deal (at least around here).Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:36 amFTFY
Also, the self employed and independent contractors were also eligible for PPP.
For reference, 35-40% of the country’s working population is doing freelance or independent contract work. Unsure how many of those (single employee companies) took out PPP loans, but they certainly could have
In fact I remember seeing a tweet from Mark Cuban urging all IC’s to apply ( I believe his tweet was geared to all the delivery peeps working for Amazon, grocery delivery, etc).
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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- LordMortis
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Hours in to day one my former employer were told funds were gone. We were put on rotating unemployment and half wages when were working. Fortunately, unemployment functioned much like PPP and the state pretty much gave it out through businesses no questions asked. Though getting on to the state website a challenge and woe be to you if you had any difficulty. Doing things in a non automated fashion simply wasn't going to happen.stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:52 am The loans were handled by certain banks and I think they were only authorized to lend so much. Individuals who qualified found out that larger institutions with better relationships with the banks had already taken all the available funds. It was a big deal (at least around here).
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
CNBC is reporting that Michigan stating it needs to jack rates because we can't charge international students full tuition prices (rather than in state subsidized pricing) since COVID and low international full tuition enrollments are crushing budgets.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Don't forget the write-off in their antiquities department.LordMortis wrote: ↑Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:50 am ...COVID and low international full tuition enrollments are crushing budgets.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
BI
Student loan forgiveness will be considered taxable income in North Carolina, the state's Department of Revenue said on Wednesday.
Although the Biden administration's student loan forgiveness plan is exempt from federal tax, the debt relief is still triggering some individual state taxes.
In North Carolina, student loan relief is taxable because the state has not fully adopted a specific Section of the Internal Revenue Code. Congress used the provision — Section 108(f)(5) — to exempt forgiven student loans between 2015 and 2021 from tax as part of the American Rescue Plan Act.
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North Carolina's announcement makes it the second state to confirm that the student loan relief will count as taxable income.
On Tuesday, Mississippi's Department of Revenue confirmed to Bloomberg it is planning to tax residents' forgiven student loan debt under state income tax.
At least 13 states are not bound to fully uphold the federal tax exemption when it comes to state tax, per the Tax Foundation. But some, including New York and Hawaii, have already moved to ensure residents who qualify for the debt forgiveness aren't hit with a state tax bill.
Now the Tax Foundation projects three more states, Arkansas, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, may tax student loan forgiveness.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Texas
Senator Ted Cruz has emerged as one of the biggest critics of President Joe Biden's student loan forgiveness plan and now he and other Texas Republicans are reportedly exploring legal options to block the policy before it takes effect, alleging the move to cancel student debt is actually against the law.
...
Like other conservatives, Cruz has called Biden's relief plan illegal, arguing that the president does not have the authority to cancel student debt. Following the plan's announcement, Cruz issued a statement claiming that it will cost roughly $2,100 per taxpayer, and adding that the highest concentration of student loan debt is held by people in the U.S. capital
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- Unagi
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
I’m just waiting for them to call it “intellectual-loan-debt-forgiveness”.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
I've been expecting a lawsuit. I figured it'd wait until after the midterms.
- Jaymann
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Transparent pandering to the student vote.
Jaymann
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
CNBC
The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected a request to block the Biden administration’s student loan debt relief program.
Justice Amy Coney Barrett denied the emergency application to block the program, which had been filed by a Wisconsin taxpayers’ group on Wednesday.
...
The loan relief plan, which is set to begin taking effect this weekend, will cancel up to $20,000 in student debt for millions of borrowers.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
I did receive a notification that the process had begun, and would be applied automatically in a few weeks. It also gave me the option to apply to have it started early. I wasn't 100% certain that it wasn't a scam, and even if it isn't, it's saving a few weeks on something that's been ongoing for almost 27 years. I could potentially have my loans wiped out entirely. I've been on deferral since I went on disability, so it won't have any effect on my actual income, but it will feel nice to actually have the possibility of being fully debt-free in my lifetime, something that would have been impossible before. Well, short of lottery/inheritance type surprises (I have no wealthy close relatives, plus my odds of winning the lottery are below most peoples' given that I don't play.)
I am curious how much of a credit score change I'll get from getting rid of ("up to") $15,000+ in old debt. It would be less utilization, but also one less source of active credit. I don't expect big changes, but I am curious to see if it ends up going up or down.
I am curious how much of a credit score change I'll get from getting rid of ("up to") $15,000+ in old debt. It would be less utilization, but also one less source of active credit. I don't expect big changes, but I am curious to see if it ends up going up or down.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Not so fast. We need a round of calvinball first!
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
NPR
The Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals issued the stay while it considers a motion from six Republican-led states to block the loan cancellation program. The stay ordered the Biden administration not to act on the program while it considers the appeal.
...
A notice of appeal to the Eighth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals was filed late Thursday, hours after U.S. District Judge Henry Autrey in St. Louis ruled that since the states of Nebraska, Missouri, Arkansas, Iowa, Kansas and South Carolina failed to establish standing, "the Court lacks jurisdiction to hear this case."
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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- stessier
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
I think there are a total of four cases. The first one was declined for review. The second just had a stay issued. After that there are still two others.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
Where were all these suing a-holes when the government was making bad tax decisions and throwing away money and whatever else is their problem when the government was forgiving the payday loans? (Yeah, I know, in line to get their loans forgiven...)
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Re: Student Loan Debt Forgiveness
CNBC
The Supreme Court on Friday rejected a second request to block the Biden administration’s student loan debt relief program.
Justice Amy Coney Barrett denied the emergency application to block the program. On Oct. 20, Barrett rejected a similar request.
It's almost as if people are the problem.