LOTR TV series @ Amazon

[hepcat]

I was reading an article on that. And according to Tolkien "historians"

Spoiler:

They'll have to use some kind of trickery to make it Gandalf as he was supposed to have arrived in the Third Age. Power of the Rings is set in the Second Age. However, this is all fiction so I'm fine with them doing whatever they want. I've already let the makers of the show and the Tolkien estate know that I'm fine with this, so expect some movement towards a resolution that sees Meteor Man being revealed as Gandalf.

[Isgrimnur]

Ruh ro, Rauron!

I lol'd.

[Archinerd]

I think Meteor Man is Fladnag.

Spoiler:

It's like Gandalf, but backwards.

[hepcat]

Honestly, I'm leaning towards Kal-el.

[Holman]

On The Stranger:

Spoiler:

I do think it's Gandalf, and I think the search for the firefly-constellation will lead the Harfoots to the Shire.

My reasoning is mostly narrative economy. No other wizard has a relationship with hobbits in any way, and showing Gandalf finding his post-semi-divine place in Middle-earth with the help of hobbits would be nicely reciprocal.

Plus it can't be Bombadil since he is (IIRC) the oldest being in Middle-earth. Canonically, he's already somewhere prancing around offscreen.

[McNutt]

Yes, having it be Gandalf would explain his connection to them later on.

[Holman]

Saw an interesting theory about Halbrand:

Spoiler:

The character Halbrand (the sailor who spent time on the raft with Galadriel) isn't in Tolkien. He's invented for this series.

He has been presented as a sexy outsider and refugee, but Galadriel has noticed that he wears the token of a lost kingdom in the Southlands. Ep 3 made us sure to notice that he tried to hide it. We've also seen that he may have sacrificed his earlier raftmates in order to escape Moby Dick.

Speculation is that he is either one of the human kings who will become a Ringwraith or that he might even be Sauron in disguise.

Sauron's seduction of the Numenoreans to the worship of Morgoth is fully told in The Silmarillion, but the Amazon series doesn't have the rights to that story, only to what's said in the appendices to the LOTR. This might be their way of doing an end-run around that problem.

Plus, if Galadriel later learns that she was somehow responsible for Sauron's survival and arrival at Numenor, that's narrative Gold.

[Jaymann]

...The Silmarillion, but the Amazon series doesn't have the rights to that story, only to what's said in the appendices to the LOTR.

WTF? I thought this series was The Silmarillion.

[Holman]

...The Silmarillion, but the Amazon series doesn't have the rights to that story, only to what's said in the appendices to the LOTR.

WTF? I thought this series was The Silmarillion.

It's complicated.

For whatever reason, Amazon has the rights to the LOTR novels and The Hobbit, but not to The Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales or some other unpublished-JRRT-manuscript-derived sources.

Wikipedia:

The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are set during the Third Age, while the First and Second Ages are explored in other Tolkien writings such as The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and The History of Middle-earth. Because Amazon only bought the television rights to The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, the writers had to identify all of the references to the Second Age in those books and create a story that bridged those passages. These are primarily in the appendices of The Lord of the Rings, but also in certain chapters and songs.[3] Tolkien's estate was prepared to veto any changes from his established narrative,[26] including anything that contradicted what Tolkien wrote in other works.[3] The writers were free to add characters or details,[26] and worked with the estate and Tolkien lore experts to ensure these were still "Tolkienian".[3] They referenced letters that Tolkien wrote about his works and mythology for additional context on the setting and characters.[3][51] Simon Tolkien, a novelist and the grandson of J.R.R. Tolkien, consulted on the series and helped develop its story and character arcs. He is credited as a "series consultant".[52] The showrunners disagreed with suggestions that the series was only "vaguely connected" to Tolkien's writings. McKay said they felt it was "deeply, deeply connected" and a "story we're stewarding that was here before us and was waiting in those books" to be told.[53] A disclaimer is featured in the series's end credits stating that some elements are "inspired by, though not contained in, the original source material".[54]

So basically, anything from earlier ages mentioned in the LOTR/Hobbit novels is fair game. For example, we can have the Elven king Gil-Galad not because he appears in The Silmarillion but because Strider sang a song about him. But since there's no mention of the creation of the world or of the various sentient peoples in LOTR (although these get many, many pages in The Silmarillion), Rings of Power has to skip over them.

EDIT: To clarify, the rights to LOTR also include the appendices, which contain what is basically a summarized history of the elves and Numenoreans and etc that is later elaborated (at tremendous length) in The Silmarillion.

[Chraolic]

Saw an interesting theory about Halbrand:

Spoiler:

The character Halbrand (the sailor who spent time on the raft with Galadriel) isn't in Tolkien. He's invented for this series.

He has been presented as a sexy outsider and refugee, but Galadriel has noticed that he wears the token of a lost kingdom in the Southlands. Ep 3 made us sure to notice that he tried to hide it. We've also seen that he may have sacrificed his earlier raftmates in order to escape Moby Dick.

Speculation is that he is either one of the human kings who will become a Ringwraith or that he might even be Sauron in disguise.

Spoiler:

One theory I've seen is that he could become the King of the Dead. It fits really well with his people having previously followed Morgoth, and also he's in the same location as Isildur.

[Holman]

Saw an interesting theory about Halbrand:

Spoiler:

The character Halbrand (the sailor who spent time on the raft with Galadriel) isn't in Tolkien. He's invented for this series.

He has been presented as a sexy outsider and refugee, but Galadriel has noticed that he wears the token of a lost kingdom in the Southlands. Ep 3 made us sure to notice that he tried to hide it. We've also seen that he may have sacrificed his earlier raftmates in order to escape Moby Dick.

Speculation is that he is either one of the human kings who will become a Ringwraith or that he might even be Sauron in disguise.

Spoiler:

One theory I've seen is that he could become the King of the Dead. It fits really well with his people having previously followed Morgoth, and also he's in the same location as Isildur.

Saw that one too. It does make sense.

[Jaymann]

On The Stranger:

Spoiler:

I do think it's Gandalf, and I think the search for the firefly-constellation will lead the Harfoots to the Shire.

My reasoning is mostly narrative economy. No other wizard has a relationship with hobbits in any way, and showing Gandalf finding his post-semi-divine place in Middle-earth with the help of hobbits would be nicely reciprocal.

Plus it can't be Bombadil since he is (IIRC) the oldest being in Middle-earth. Canonically, he's already somewhere prancing around offscreen.

Maybe he just went for a ride. Artistic license!

[Holman]

Just watched episode 4. Lots of Numenor, lots of Southrons and orcs, plenty of dwarves, no Harfoots to be seen. Still a good episode!

Also, a *very* specific screenplay allusion:

Spoiler:

When Adar (called Lord-Father by the orcs) is talking with the captured elf Arondir, he asks him where he is from.

This happens just after 16:35. From there, the dialogue very closely mimics Marlon Brando's Colonel Kurtz talking to Martin Sheen's Captain Willard in Apocalypse Now. It's only a few lines, but it's too particular to be a coincidence.

Here's the relevant dialogue from AN:

Spoiler:

KURTZ
Where you from, Willard?

WILLARD
I'm from Ohio, sir.

KURTZ
Were you born there?

WILLARD
Yes, sir.

KURTZ
Whereabouts?

WILLARD
Toledo, sir.

KURTZ
How far are you from the river?

WILLARD
The Ohio River, sir? About two
hundred miles.

KURTZ
I went down that river once when I
was a kid. There's a place in the
river, I can't remember...must
have been a gardenia plantation,
or a flower plantation at one time.
It's all wild and overgrown now.
But for about five miles, you'd
think that heaven just fell on the
earth, in the form of gardenias.

I wonder if we'll see more touches like this?

There's also more on The Stranger, although we don't see him:

Spoiler:

The creepy old Southron dude tells the Southron kid-with-the-Morgoth-blade that Sauron recently arrived in a starfall. This obviously refers to The Stranger, but I think it's a misdirection.

My sister debated this with me, claiming that The Stranger being Gandalf would mess too much with the canonical timeline, but I do think that's what the show is doing. And anyway, Galadriel's search has already established that Sauron survived the fall of Morgoth and is still active in the world. There's no point (that we've heard about) where he was defeated and then banished, now to return.

Another possibility, though (as long as everyone is messing with timelines), is that there were actually two simultaneous starfalls, and that the one the Harfoots saw was not the one the Southrons saw.

As for Adar:

Spoiler:

I'm guessing he'll eventually be the Mouth of Sauron or the Witch-King.

[Archinerd]

Just watched episode 4. Lots of Numenor, lots of Southrons and orcs, plenty of dwarves, no Harfoots to be seen. Still a good episode!

Also, a *very* specific screenplay allusion:

Spoiler:

When Adar (called Lord-Father by the orcs) is talking with the captured elf Arondir, he asks him where he is from.

This happens just after 16:35. From there, the dialogue very closely mimics Marlon Brando's Colonel Kurtz talking to Martin Sheen's Captain Willard in Apocalypse Now. It's only a few lines, but it's too particular to be a coincidence.

Here's the relevant dialogue from AN:

Spoiler:

KURTZ
Where you from, Willard?

WILLARD
I'm from Ohio, sir.

KURTZ
Were you born there?

WILLARD
Yes, sir.

KURTZ
Whereabouts?

WILLARD
Toledo, sir.

KURTZ
How far are you from the river?

WILLARD
The Ohio River, sir? About two
hundred miles.

KURTZ
I went down that river once when I
was a kid. There's a place in the
river, I can't remember...must
have been a gardenia plantation,
or a flower plantation at one time.
It's all wild and overgrown now.
But for about five miles, you'd
think that heaven just fell on the
earth, in the form of gardenias.

I wonder if we'll see more touches like this?

Spoiler:

He even sounds like Brando's Kurtz in that scene.

[Holman]

Just watched episode 4. Lots of Numenor, lots of Southrons and orcs, plenty of dwarves, no Harfoots to be seen. Still a good episode!

Also, a *very* specific screenplay allusion:

Spoiler:

When Adar (called Lord-Father by the orcs) is talking with the captured elf Arondir, he asks him where he is from.

This happens just after 16:35. From there, the dialogue very closely mimics Marlon Brando's Colonel Kurtz talking to Martin Sheen's Captain Willard in Apocalypse Now. It's only a few lines, but it's too particular to be a coincidence.

Here's the relevant dialogue from AN:

Spoiler:

KURTZ
Where you from, Willard?

WILLARD
I'm from Ohio, sir.

KURTZ
Were you born there?

WILLARD
Yes, sir.

KURTZ
Whereabouts?

WILLARD
Toledo, sir.

KURTZ
How far are you from the river?

WILLARD
The Ohio River, sir? About two
hundred miles.

KURTZ
I went down that river once when I
was a kid. There's a place in the
river, I can't remember...must
have been a gardenia plantation,
or a flower plantation at one time.
It's all wild and overgrown now.
But for about five miles, you'd
think that heaven just fell on the
earth, in the form of gardenias.

I wonder if we'll see more touches like this?

Spoiler:

He even sounds like Brando's Kurtz in that scene.

It's now canon that Beleriand is Elven Ohio.

[Jaymann]

The horror. The horror.

[hepcat]

It's now canon that Beleriand is Elven Ohio.

It does lead the nation in pipe weed production...

[Carpet_pissr]

Just watched episode 4. Lots of Numenor, lots of Southrons and orcs, plenty of dwarves, no Harfoots to be seen. Still a good episode!

Also, a *very* specific screenplay allusion:

Spoiler:

When Adar (called Lord-Father by the orcs) is talking with the captured elf Arondir, he asks him where he is from.

This happens just after 16:35. From there, the dialogue very closely mimics Marlon Brando's Colonel Kurtz talking to Martin Sheen's Captain Willard in Apocalypse Now. It's only a few lines, but it's too particular to be a coincidence.

Here's the relevant dialogue from AN:

Spoiler:

KURTZ
Where you from, Willard?

WILLARD
I'm from Ohio, sir.

KURTZ
Were you born there?

WILLARD
Yes, sir.

KURTZ
Whereabouts?

WILLARD
Toledo, sir.

KURTZ
How far are you from the river?

WILLARD
The Ohio River, sir? About two
hundred miles.

KURTZ
I went down that river once when I
was a kid. There's a place in the
river, I can't remember...must
have been a gardenia plantation,
or a flower plantation at one time.
It's all wild and overgrown now.
But for about five miles, you'd
think that heaven just fell on the
earth, in the form of gardenias.

I wonder if we'll see more touches like this?

There's also more on The Stranger, although we don't see him:

Spoiler:

The creepy old Southron dude tells the Southron kid-with-the-Morgoth-blade that Sauron recently arrived in a starfall. This obviously refers to The Stranger, but I think it's a misdirection.

My sister debated this with me, claiming that The Stranger being Gandalf would mess too much with the canonical timeline, but I do think that's what the show is doing. And anyway, Galadriel's search has already established that Sauron survived the fall of Morgoth and is still active in the world. There's no point (that we've heard about) where he was defeated and then banished, now to return.

Another possibility, though (as long as everyone is messing with timelines), is that there were actually two simultaneous starfalls, and that the one the Harfoots saw was not the one the Southrons saw.

As for Adar:

Spoiler:

I'm guessing he'll eventually be the Mouth of Sauron or the Witch-King.

As for the second spoiler, go back and listen to the wording - I don’t think it’s as specific as what you wrote. In fact I remember that part and specifically thinking they worded it in a way that hinted at ‘arrival’ w/o specifying how.

I very much got the impression that the two ‘events’ happened at the same time, but were separate. Or the wording made me think that it was an intentional loophole.

[Holman]

As for the second spoiler, go back and listen to the wording - I don’t think it’s as specific as what you wrote. In fact I remember that part and specifically thinking they worded it in a way that hinted at ‘arrival’ w/o specifying how.

I very much got the impression that the two ‘events’ happened at the same time, but were separate. Or the wording made me think that it was an intentional loophole.

Yeah, you're right. I just listened to it again, and Creepy Southron really only says that the starfall means "his time is near."

[Jaymann]

And about the dwarves:

Spoiler:

Is this where they got too greedy and released the Balrog?

[Holman]

And about the dwarves:

Spoiler:

Is this where they got too greedy and released the Balrog?

Yes.

Spoiler:

The Dwarves' name for the Balrog (after it ruined and emptied Moria) was "Durin's Bane," so they probably unleash it after Durin becomes king.

[Smoove_B]

For the latest episode ("Partings"), I only had a single question for the experts - mithril:

Spoiler:

Is the story they're telling about mithril cannon? I knew it was special and I knew about how the greed of dwarves unleashed the Balrog, but I didn't know about a (possible?) connection between mithril and the survival of the elves (as communicated by High King Gil-galad). Is this something made up for this story or is High King Gil-galad speculating (lying?) about the mithril because he too is greedy and wants access?

Additionally, regarding the mystery comet man and the overland travel montage:

Spoiler:

The traveling song was interesting, namely that the lyrics ended with "Not all those who wander are lost". Was that a nod to the idea that he's Gandalf or perhaps a misdirection?

Still enjoying it tremendously. I'd rank it far above the Wheel of Time at this point. I really like what they've done with the orcs - their look. I am sure some of it is related to makeup and camera trickery (covering them up, giving them skull helmets, etc...), but I think they look better than what was in the movies.

[Holman]

For the latest episode ("Partings"), I only had a single question for the experts - mithril:

Spoiler:

Is the story they're telling about mithril cannon? I knew it was special and I knew about how the greed of dwarves unleashed the Balrog, but I didn't know about a (possible?) connection between mithril and the survival of the elves (as communicated by High King Gil-galad). Is this something made up for this story or is High King Gil-galad speculating (lying?) about the mithril because he too is greedy and wants access?

Additionally, regarding the mystery comet man and the overland travel montage:

Spoiler:

The traveling song was interesting, namely that the lyrics ended with "Not all those who wander are lost". Was that a nod to the idea that he's Gandalf or perhaps a misdirection?

Still enjoying it tremendously. I'd rank it far above the Wheel of Time at this point. I really like what they've done with the orcs - their look. I am sure some of it is related to makeup and camera trickery (covering them up, giving them skull helmets, etc...), but I think they look better than what was in the movies.

On mithril:

Spoiler:

I think this is made up (unless, as you suggest, it is merely Gil-galad's greed or ambition).

The Mithril article at the reliable Tolkien Gateway wiki makes no mention of anything like this. It does say that one of the three Elven rings (Galadriel's) was wrought of mithril, but this presumably means the others were not.

On wandering:

Spoiler:

That was a definite callback to Gandalf's poem about Aragorn in LOTR.

I just kept wondering why their course on the map went every which way. Like, *were* they lost?

[Smoove_B]

Interesting. Thanks.

I was googling around a bit (it's difficult I don't want to get spoilers) trying to get more information and someone had suggested (for mithril)

Spoiler:

That perhaps what the king is repeating is what (disguised) Sauron is whispering in his ear - perhaps believing it will encourage the dwarves to dig deeper and generally cause more problems between the elves and dwarves. If we already know (suspect?) he's influencing Celebrimbor as part of the story we're currently seeing, perhaps it's not as much of a stretch to think he's influencing the elf king as well?

The highly, highly spoiler filled article is here

If this is all the case, I think it's pretty damn clever. Again, as a casual LotR fan I'm not upset with the new characters that have been created or the liberties they've taken so far - I'm just enjoying how it's all unfolding.

[hepcat]

I appreciate that every episode is a beefy hour or more. It feels like it’s taking its time to tell the story it wants to tell.

I do really dislike Isildur. But I suspect that’s what the writers want.

The actors playing Elrond and Durin have fantastic chemistry though. I enjoy their bantering.

[McNutt]

I get really nervous watching everyone work on a ship wearing full armor.

[Smoove_B]

It's buried in the Silmarillion, but the Númenóreans perfected quick-release armor for that very reason.

[JCC]

Wow! This week's episode was absolutely amazing.

[hepcat]

It felt like

Spoiler:

Just a string of bad events for the south landers. They started to celebrate at least twice and both times they were interrupted by some new catastrophe. I felt like they should have just started playing Sad Trombone each time.

But it was quite epic and very well shot.

[Jaymann]

At last some action. Where was that elf dude when Helm's Deep rolled around? And great fake out by the bad guys.

[The Meal]

First episode I stayed awake for the whole thing. <-- (An indictment on me, not the show...)

[Unagi]

At last some action. Where was that elf dude when Helm's Deep rolled around? And great fake out by the bad guys.

While I do also like the action, as it's important for the story and provides all the tension... There is a small part of me that recognizes just how many times in these movies I find myself musing about just how fast someone could draw and shoot an arrow while drawing and shooting the next. I don't really say that as a negative. It's a cool thing for me to ponder. I just realize how often I'm doing it. I don't think we've seen our elf yet shoot a double-arrow...

And I don't think we have ever once even seen a single fletcher in the background... come to think of it.
Still I love it.

Now that being said... I'm still blindly happy to consume all of the Elven-bullet-time stuff. And I love the acrobatic saddle-play they are fond of too.

But mostly, I think I'm enjoying this for all the threads they have laid out (I suppose I could simply say, for the story) and the truly spectacular cinematography. And the world. Like Star Wars, I'm just in love with the universe that this exists in so much, that this is a much-appreciated treat.

[Chraolic]

And I don't think we have ever once even seen a single fletcher in the background... come to think of it.

They forged an arrow-head right in the middle of the screen while they were waiting for the orc attack. Did you want to see the whole production chain or something?

[Jaymann]

Technically fletching is adding the feathers.

[Holman]

Technically fletching is adding the feathers.

Yes, but in the same way that Second-Age horses can understand Sindarin, in Middle-earth (prior to the Third Age) the arrows of the good come from the trees of Leantholin, sprouting their own "feathers" (actually stout leaves) that are organic to the wood. In this way they are said to fly straighter and truer than the later arrows of normal men.

There's a line in LOTR (the book, but not in the movie) where Legolas tells Aragorn that he "longs for the leaves of Leantholin," and no one knows what this means until they read The Silmarillion.

Source:

Spoiler:

Just some bullshit I made up.

[Holman]

I thought the latest (episode 6) was tight, taut drama. I loved the world-building around the Uruks and how it revealed that Galadriel herself contains some of the darkness she is fighting.

And then of course there's the *literal* world-building there at the end.

Some thinks:

Spoiler:

Adar is just a terrific character. Having him be one of the first elves twisted by Morgoth--that is, himself being one of the first orcs--is pretty cool.

At first the fake-out when Arondir gives Theo what is just a wrapped axe confused me. It took a moment for me to realize that the fake-out was actually Adar's, since Adar had already sent off the Evil Old Coot on his task to unlock the waters. That's why Adar could welcome death and captivity so easily: his plan had already succeeded.

Adar's description of Sauron wanting to "heal" Middle-earth and make it perfect and orderly was a lovely touch of Sauronic seduction, especially when you realize what that means in the final moments.

[JCC]

So unsurprisingly, this week's episode doesn't contain any epic battles like last week. But, it's still a great episode. I read an article about the show that indicated it might be two years or more before we get the next season. I really hope that's not true. I think this show has been fantastic. Can't wait to see the season finale next week.

[Jaymann]

I must have not been paying close attention:

Spoiler:

Who is the blonde bitch with a buzz cut who burned out the hobbits?

[JCC]

I must have not been paying close attention:

Spoiler:

Who is the blonde bitch with a buzz cut who burned out the hobbits?

I don't think we know who those 3 are yet.

[Daveman]

I must have not been paying close attention:

Spoiler:

Who is the blonde bitch with a buzz cut who burned out the hobbits?

I believe...

Spoiler:

The first time we see them they were investigating the meteor crater left by Gandalf/Saruman/Sauron??/whoever. They seem to be searching for him but that's all we've been shown.