Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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Kraken
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Kraken »

Holman wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:20 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:40 am And Mass. governor-elect Maura Healey has her first scandal.
Is a strict separation between Boston and Cambridge a huge deal in Massachusetts?

I've said my whole life that I'm from Atlanta, but I've never lived in the city limits. Instead I've had addresses in Decatur, Dunwoody, and Norcross, all of which are technically separate municipalities but come under the umbrella of metro Atlanta.
More like a friendly rivalry. But Cantabridgeans don't identify as Bostonians or vice versa. Boston proper is a very small city.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Holman »

Kraken wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:57 pm
Holman wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:20 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:40 am And Mass. governor-elect Maura Healey has her first scandal.
Is a strict separation between Boston and Cambridge a huge deal in Massachusetts?

I've said my whole life that I'm from Atlanta, but I've never lived in the city limits. Instead I've had addresses in Decatur, Dunwoody, and Norcross, all of which are technically separate municipalities but come under the umbrella of metro Atlanta.
More like a friendly rivalry. But Cantabridgeans don't identify as Bostonians or vice versa. Boston proper is a very small city.
Ah. This is presumably why Harvard grads coyly present themselves as having "gone to college near Boston."
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by El Guapo »

Holman wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:01 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:57 pm
Holman wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 5:20 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:40 am And Mass. governor-elect Maura Healey has her first scandal.
Is a strict separation between Boston and Cambridge a huge deal in Massachusetts?

I've said my whole life that I'm from Atlanta, but I've never lived in the city limits. Instead I've had addresses in Decatur, Dunwoody, and Norcross, all of which are technically separate municipalities but come under the umbrella of metro Atlanta.
More like a friendly rivalry. But Cantabridgeans don't identify as Bostonians or vice versa. Boston proper is a very small city.
Ah. This is presumably why Harvard grads coyly present themselves as having "gone to college near Boston."
God it's so f'ing annoying when they do that. Like when Yale people talk about having to gone to college "in New Haven".

I will say it's fun when you don't follow up with the question that they want - "oh, which school?"
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by ImLawBoy »

That's weird. I've never heard of having to pry out that someone went to Harvard. The old joke goes, "How do you know if someone went to Harvard? Talk to them for two minutes and they'll tell you."
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by El Guapo »

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:03 am That's weird. I've never heard of having to pry out that someone went to Harvard. The old joke goes, "How do you know if someone went to Harvard? Talk to them for two minutes and they'll tell you."
You don't. It's just that some Harvard / Yalies really want to brag about what school they go to / went to, but also want to pretend that they're not bragging at the same time, so they'll say something like "oh, I go to school in Cambridge" expecting that you will follow up by asking which school, and *then* they'll fake humbly have to tell you that they in fact go to Harvard.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by malchior »

Pelosi just announced she is stepping aside as leader of the Democrats in the House.

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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I expected that. She was very good at her job, but it's time to give someone younger on-the-job training for 2024.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Smoove_B »

Hopefully the usual suspects don't interpret this as she's stepping down because her husband was attacked. I mean, it probably was part of the decision, but the idea that she was "bullied" into stepping down is not good.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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The other thing is that I think that being the steady focus of Fox News and talk radio propaganda for many years gradually makes someone radioactive to a large swath of the population. I think a lot of people in red America have an instinctive emotional reaction at this point just to her name. Now, obviously that same network is going to go to work on whomever her replacement is, but it'll take time to get that person to the same level that Pelosi is at right now.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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Smoove_B wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:28 pm Hopefully the usual suspects don't interpret this as she's stepping down because her husband was attacked. I mean, it probably was part of the decision, but the idea that she was "bullied" into stepping down is not good.
I'm not particularly worried about that. This is a normal time for a leader to step away, especially after so long in the job and at the point at which the Democrats are going to be in the minority. I don't doubt that some segment of MAGA World will try to spin it that way, but I don't think the vast majority of people will think so.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:30 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:28 pm Hopefully the usual suspects don't interpret this as she's stepping down because her husband was attacked. I mean, it probably was part of the decision, but the idea that she was "bullied" into stepping down is not good.
I'm not particularly worried about that.
I'm not too worried about that myself as well. She is 82 and had a long tenure. I'd even argue she overstayed her time when we needed fresh voices.
Kraken wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:21 pm I expected that. She was very good at her job, but it's time to give someone younger on-the-job training for 2024.
I think it'll take a long time to figure out her legacy. Was she good at counting votes and the mechanics of the running the caucus? Undeniable. That's only one aspect. Some of her critics (even in her party) did not like how she controlled the floor. It could be argued that was necessary but again that'll take some time to reflect on.

We also have to look at what has happened while she was leader in a wider context. True accountability has to recognize that she was the leader for 20 years and is leaving the country in much worse shape than she got it. How much of that is her responsibility is a fair question but I'm not sold on the idea that she was good at her job when her record can also be seen as a failure as well.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:30 pm I don't doubt that some segment of MAGA World will try to spin it that way, but I don't think the vast majority of people will think so.
The vast majority of people aren't the concern. The problem is that said segment of the MAGA world could then take it as proof that violence is an effective way to bring about political change.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by stimpy »

I have a friend that whenever someone asks where he lives he replies, Riverside, which is a swanky upscale neighborhood.
Problem is, he lives in the adjacent town, North Riverside, which is.........not.

Every time he says he says he lives in Riverside, the rest of us look at each other and softly say North........

It totally an optics thing.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:09 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:30 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:28 pm Hopefully the usual suspects don't interpret this as she's stepping down because her husband was attacked. I mean, it probably was part of the decision, but the idea that she was "bullied" into stepping down is not good.
I'm not particularly worried about that.
I'm not too worried about that myself as well. She is 82 and had a long tenure. I'd even argue she overstayed her time when we needed fresh voices.

It is absolutely past time. The optics are kind of problematic after the attack but she's staying in the House. Otherwise the timing is fine since the Dems are losing the majority.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by El Guapo »

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:14 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:30 pm I don't doubt that some segment of MAGA World will try to spin it that way, but I don't think the vast majority of people will think so.
The vast majority of people aren't the concern. The problem is that said segment of the MAGA world could then take it as proof that violence is an effective way to bring about political change.
Yeah, but I think 99%+ of those people would think so regardless of what she does.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Carpet_pissr »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:42 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:14 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:30 pm I don't doubt that some segment of MAGA World will try to spin it that way, but I don't think the vast majority of people will think so.
The vast majority of people aren't the concern. The problem is that said segment of the MAGA world could then take it as proof that violence is an effective way to bring about political change.
Yeah, but I think 99%+ of those people would think so regardless of what she does.
This. I think the worry affects a VERY small population. A dangerous population, sure, but we're talking about hard core right wing extremists who would consider the kind of violence we saw against her husband in the first place. I doubt before this they were re-consideing their pro-violence tendencies, and deciding to hang it up until 82 YO Nancy who it was already widely reported that she might retire, actually retired.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Kraken »

malchior wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:09 pm
El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:30 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:28 pm Hopefully the usual suspects don't interpret this as she's stepping down because her husband was attacked. I mean, it probably was part of the decision, but the idea that she was "bullied" into stepping down is not good.
I'm not particularly worried about that.
I'm not too worried about that myself as well. She is 82 and had a long tenure. I'd even argue she overstayed her time when we needed fresh voices.
Kraken wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:21 pm I expected that. She was very good at her job, but it's time to give someone younger on-the-job training for 2024.
I think it'll take a long time to figure out her legacy. Was she good at counting votes and the mechanics of the running the caucus? Undeniable. That's only one aspect. Some of her critics (even in her party) did not like how she controlled the floor. It could be argued that was necessary but again that'll take some time to reflect on.

We also have to look at what has happened while she was leader in a wider context. True accountability has to recognize that she was the leader for 20 years and is leaving the country in much worse shape than she got it. How much of that is her responsibility is a fair question but I'm not sold on the idea that she was good at her job when her record can also be seen as a failure as well.
Depends on how you define her job. To what extent does a Speaker formulate and promote policy, and to what extent does s/he keep the troops in line and deliver votes for those who do? I see it as primarily managerial, and she's a very good manager.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by malchior »

Kraken wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:13 pmDepends on how you define her job. To what extent does a Speaker formulate and promote policy, and to what extent does s/he keep the troops in line and deliver votes for those who do? I see it as primarily managerial, and she's a very good manager.
It's more than that though. She was a huge fundraiser and bundler. She influenced and controlled who ran for certain seats, who got funding, who didn't get funding, etc. I'm apparently not the only one thinking this through right now. This piece from Washington Post "Nancy Pelosi’s strategies were flawed. Democrats must move on from them." goes into it. I still think it'll take years to really get a good picture but he does have some good points I hadn't considered. For example, she was the leader when the Democrats were beaten by the Republicans 6 out of 10 times.
In the simplest sense, Pelosi’s tenure should be regarded as lackluster because the party has won a House majority in only four of the 10 elections since she became House Democratic leader in late 2002. The Democrats’ sixth defeat under her leadership means that they will yield power to a class of Republicans who are among the most radical, extreme people to ever control the chamber. It is hard to think of anyone with such a mixed record being allowed to lead a high-profile organization for 20 years — let alone considering a 21st and 22nd, as Pelosi did over the past few days.

And it’s not just about the Democrats’ failure to win the House under Pelosi’s leadership. Unlike even President Biden, who has only really led the party since 2020, Pelosi has been one of the chief decision-makers and prominent figures for the Democratic Party for the entire past two decades. Over that span, the party has consistently lost elections at the state and federal levels, resulting in numerous terrible policies being adopted by Republicans while good ones are stalled. An increasingly radical, antidemocratic Republican Party already dominates much of the country and could win control of the entire federal government in 2024.

Almost no one in the United States has had more opportunities to stop the rise of the Republicans than Pelosi. Considering that Republican strength, her tenure cannot be viewed as successful.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Kraken »

malchior wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:01 pm
Kraken wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:13 pmDepends on how you define her job. To what extent does a Speaker formulate and promote policy, and to what extent does s/he keep the troops in line and deliver votes for those who do? I see it as primarily managerial, and she's a very good manager.
It's more than that though. She was a huge fundraiser and bundler. She influenced and controlled who ran for certain seats, who got funding, who didn't get funding, etc. I'm apparently not the only one thinking this through right now. This piece from Washington Post "Nancy Pelosi’s strategies were flawed. Democrats must move on from them." goes into it. I still think it'll take years to really get a good picture but he does have some good points I hadn't considered. For example, she was the leader when the Democrats were beaten by the Republicans 6 out of 10 times.
That's a bigger picture than I had considered. "She has been a defining figure in the creation of today’s Democratic Party, which has four major flaws that led to consistent electoral and policy failure: excessive caution; an over-reliance on centrism; a brand that is little more than “we are not as bad as the Republicans”; and weak organization at the local and state level." I won't argue with any of that.

Joe Biden was urged (and expected) to "go small and go slow," and fortunately he ignored that advice and delivered a very productive year-and-a-half, from covid relief to the infrastructure bill to the CHIPS bill to the Inflation Reduction Act. These policies will make the US a better country and *should* buttress people's faith in democracy's ability to solve problems. They should also convince Democrats to swing for the fences.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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malchior wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:01 pm
Kraken wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:13 pmDepends on how you define her job. To what extent does a Speaker formulate and promote policy, and to what extent does s/he keep the troops in line and deliver votes for those who do? I see it as primarily managerial, and she's a very good manager.
It's more than that though. She was a huge fundraiser and bundler. She influenced and controlled who ran for certain seats, who got funding, who didn't get funding, etc. I'm apparently not the only one thinking this through right now. This piece from Washington Post "Nancy Pelosi’s strategies were flawed. Democrats must move on from them." goes into it. I still think it'll take years to really get a good picture but he does have some good points I hadn't considered. For example, she was the leader when the Democrats were beaten by the Republicans 6 out of 10 times.
In the simplest sense, Pelosi’s tenure should be regarded as lackluster because the party has won a House majority in only four of the 10 elections since she became House Democratic leader in late 2002. The Democrats’ sixth defeat under her leadership means that they will yield power to a class of Republicans who are among the most radical, extreme people to ever control the chamber. It is hard to think of anyone with such a mixed record being allowed to lead a high-profile organization for 20 years — let alone considering a 21st and 22nd, as Pelosi did over the past few days.

And it’s not just about the Democrats’ failure to win the House under Pelosi’s leadership. Unlike even President Biden, who has only really led the party since 2020, Pelosi has been one of the chief decision-makers and prominent figures for the Democratic Party for the entire past two decades. Over that span, the party has consistently lost elections at the state and federal levels, resulting in numerous terrible policies being adopted by Republicans while good ones are stalled. An increasingly radical, antidemocratic Republican Party already dominates much of the country and could win control of the entire federal government in 2024.

Almost no one in the United States has had more opportunities to stop the rise of the Republicans than Pelosi. Considering that Republican strength, her tenure cannot be viewed as successful.
There's also stuff like this though:

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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by malchior »

Yeah it's worth a long debate and it will be had. I don't think people would say she hasn't had victories. Many were huge. Still it's hard to put this stuff in context. The ACA for instance is somewhat a good example of something that has good and bad aspects. It may sometime in the future be seen as a failure or kicking the can down the road. In the decade since it passed it has helped somewhat but we still have the worst healthcare system in the advanced world by almost every measure possible and significantly worse in cost vs. performance.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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I bet Fox News is really stumped trying to figure out how they can demagogue red America against someone named Hakeem.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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El Guapo wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:50 pm I bet Fox News is really stumped trying to figure out how they can demagogue red America against someone named Hakeem.
Election denier Hakeem Jeffries could replace Pelosi as House Dem leader: Jeffries said America deserves to know if Trump was a 'fake' president
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Pyperkub »

Finally, a Democratic Challenger to Feinstein who I can support...
California Rep. Katie Porter announced a 2024 Senate bid on Tuesday, launching her campaign for Sen. Dianne Feinstein’s seat in what could be a bruising Democratic primary.
And yes, for a good chunk of the past 10 years, the aging old guard has been a huge part of the Democratic Party.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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Pyperkub wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:07 pm Finally, a Democratic Challenger to Feinstein who I can support...
California Rep. Katie Porter announced a 2024 Senate bid on Tuesday, launching her campaign for Sen. Dianne Feinstein’s seat in what could be a bruising Democratic primary.
And yes, for a good chunk of the past 10 years, the aging old guard has been a huge part of the Democratic Party.
Hell yes! She's got my vote unless something dramatically changes.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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Any chance Feinstein will abdicate?
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

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Man, it would be completely insane for Feinstein to run for reelection. Which means she's probably going to try.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by El Guapo »

Jaymann wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:54 pm Any chance Feinstein will abdicate?
Google suggests that she hasn't announced a decision on whether she's going to run for reelection yet.
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Kraken »

Kurth wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:17 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:50 pm I bet Fox News is really stumped trying to figure out how they can demagogue red America against someone named Hakeem.
Election denier Hakeem Jeffries could replace Pelosi as House Dem leader: Jeffries said America deserves to know if Trump was a 'fake' president
TFG flipped a couple of purple states by a handful of votes with active support from Russia while decisively losing the popular vote. He successfully gamed the system by cheating, which is the story of his life. Technically legitimate, morally not.

I made the mistake of starting to read comments and went "whoa, where am I?" Oh. Somebody linked Fox News. :P
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Re: Defining the 21st Century Democratic Party

Post by Kurth »

Kraken wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:33 pm
Kurth wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:17 pm
El Guapo wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:50 pm I bet Fox News is really stumped trying to figure out how they can demagogue red America against someone named Hakeem.
Election denier Hakeem Jeffries could replace Pelosi as House Dem leader: Jeffries said America deserves to know if Trump was a 'fake' president
TFG flipped a couple of purple states by a handful of votes with active support from Russia while decisively losing the popular vote. He successfully gamed the system by cheating, which is the story of his life. Technically legitimate, morally not.

I made the mistake of starting to read comments and went "whoa, where am I?" Oh. Somebody linked Fox News. :P
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