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Brasil's Jan 6
Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
- Grifman
- Posts: 21375
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm
Brasil's Jan 6
Supporters of former Trumpist president Bolisaro have stormed several buildings in the capital of Brasil today:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/08/americas ... index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/08/americas ... index.html
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41519
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Terrible. But no sign of any support from established political figures (even from Bolsonaro's party) from what I can tell. As long as the military doesn't actively support any pro-Bolsonaro efforts, seems likely that it will ultimately pass.
Black Lives Matter.
- Defiant
- Posts: 21045
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: Tongue in cheek
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Extreme Right wingers storming the capital in support of Florida man.
I definitely have a feeling of deja vu.
I definitely have a feeling of deja vu.
- Grifman
- Posts: 21375
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
More here:
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
- Carpet_pissr
- Posts: 20176
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- Location: Columbia, SC
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Wow, the comments from Raskin and others in the admin sound so goddamn pretentious.
I think we should be in STFU mode until we can get our own shit in order and maybe don’t lecture others.
Maybe Germany can chime in here without the world community snickering.
I think we should be in STFU mode until we can get our own shit in order and maybe don’t lecture others.
Maybe Germany can chime in here without the world community snickering.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41519
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- Location: Boston
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Maybe some quotes would be helpful?Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:18 pm Wow, the comments from Raskin and others in the admin sound so goddamn pretentious.
I think we should be in STFU mode until we can get our own shit in order and maybe don’t lecture others.
Maybe Germany can chime in here without the world community snickering.
Otherwise, just because our politics are a mess doesn't mean that the administration should pretend to be indifferent to attempted coups.
Black Lives Matter.
- Carpet_pissr
- Posts: 20176
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:32 pm
- Location: Columbia, SC
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
No, but we have a real rep for hypocrisy and that tends to add up over time, to the point where you lose influence, soft or otherwise. It's easy enough to recognize that we have problems AND condemn anti-democratic actions like this. In fact, I submit that that kind of new, bit humbler tack would likely be a net positive for us with our allies or even neutrals.El Guapo wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:36 pmMaybe some quotes would be helpful?Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:18 pm Wow, the comments from Raskin and others in the admin sound so goddamn pretentious.
I think we should be in STFU mode until we can get our own shit in order and maybe don’t lecture others.
Maybe Germany can chime in here without the world community snickering.
Otherwise, just because our politics are a mess doesn't mean that the administration should pretend to be indifferent to attempted coups.
Edit:
Sorry, when I am posting on my phone, quotes and links are damn near impossible, or I would have added it. I can't even find it now...but here is the page where I found his comments (aggregated news):
https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNgg ... id=US%3Aen
- Kraken
- Posts: 43990
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
- Location: The Hub of the Universe
- Contact:
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
I wonder what spark set them off. America's Jan 6 was trump's doing, as has been documented in detail. Did Bolsonaro send some signal to his mob, or did they just reach the boiling point independently? The story says barriers went up yesterday...maybe they saw their window closing?
-
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Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Brasil is already doing a better job than us - they've arrested hundreds on the day of.
- Smoove_B
- Posts: 54916
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- Location: Kaer Morhen
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Can you imagine how much easier things would have been if a significant portion of 1/6 rioters were arrested then and there instead of taking 2+ years to still try and identify and then arrest them? It's so weird - that there wasn't a more aggressive police presence on 1/6. I guess we'll never know why.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41519
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
I guess I'm not sure what you would want them to say. "Look, certainly not for us to lecture anyone about this, but on balance we think it's probably not a good idea for armed mobs to attack capitol buildings. But you know, just our opinion."Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:35 pmNo, but we have a real rep for hypocrisy and that tends to add up over time, to the point where you lose influence, soft or otherwise. It's easy enough to recognize that we have problems AND condemn anti-democratic actions like this. In fact, I submit that that kind of new, bit humbler tack would likely be a net positive for us with our allies or even neutrals.El Guapo wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:36 pmMaybe some quotes would be helpful?Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:18 pm Wow, the comments from Raskin and others in the admin sound so goddamn pretentious.
I think we should be in STFU mode until we can get our own shit in order and maybe don’t lecture others.
Maybe Germany can chime in here without the world community snickering.
Otherwise, just because our politics are a mess doesn't mean that the administration should pretend to be indifferent to attempted coups.
Edit:
Sorry, when I am posting on my phone, quotes and links are damn near impossible, or I would have added it. I can't even find it now...but here is the page where I found his comments (aggregated news):
https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNgg ... id=US%3Aen
Black Lives Matter.
- Kraken
- Posts: 43990
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
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Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Case in point: the feds are still closing in on this 68-year-old gynecologist who punched a cop.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:08 pmCan you imagine how much easier things would have been if a significant portion of 1/6 rioters were arrested then and there instead of taking 2+ years to still try and identify and then arrest them? It's so weird - that there wasn't a more aggressive police presence on 1/6. I guess we'll never know why.
The interesting question is:The woman in the video sauntered through the US Capitol rotunda in a Donald Trump pom-pom hat, a red puffy coat, and a fanny pack. When the crowd pushed forward, she did too, squaring up, at one point, with a US Capitol Police officer.
And in the span of a few seconds, the woman with the blonde bob glared, snarled her lips, and clenched her teeth. She raised her right fist and lunged.
For two years, nothing further came of the woman in the video. She was just another face in a sea of anger, one of about 2,000 who seized the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, on a crusade to overturn the results of an election. But then late last month, police cruisers cut through a quiet cul-de-sac in Ashland, Mass., and stopped outside the home of Dr. Jacquelyn Starer.
The linked story speculates but doesn't answer the question because the people who know aren't talking to the press.How could the woman dedicated to helping some of society’s most downtrodden — pregnant women with addiction issues — storm the Capitol and allegedly punch a police officer? Sure, there had been breadcrumbs of conservatism. A Reagan quote here. A Facebook post there. A $100 donation to Republican Scott Brown’s failed 2012 Senate campaign. But there’s a canyon between a Reaganite and an alleged insurrectionist. And, at some point, Starer seems to have crossed it.
- Grifman
- Posts: 21375
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:18 pm Wow, the comments from Raskin and others in the admin sound so goddamn pretentious.
I think we should be in STFU mode until we can get our own shit in order and maybe don’t lecture others.
Maybe Germany can chime in here without the world community snickering.
I don’t see anything wrong:
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
- Grifman
- Posts: 21375
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Heh, well that didn't turn out well:
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
- Octavious
- Posts: 20040
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:50 pm
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Fox not a single story. Guess Brazil being stormed isn't worthy of a story. Wonder why?
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.
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Shameless plug for my website: www.nettphoto.com
- Grifman
- Posts: 21375
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:17 pm
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
I never understood why they didn’t cordon off the Capitol and just started arresting everyone within that perimeter. But it may have been that Congress wanted back in to finish the count and clearing the rioters out was quicker than arresting them.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:08 pmCan you imagine how much easier things would have been if a significant portion of 1/6 rioters were arrested then and there instead of taking 2+ years to still try and identify and then arrest them? It's so weird - that there wasn't a more aggressive police presence on 1/6. I guess we'll never know why.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
-
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- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
That was a question asked for weeks and months afterwards. And what's crazy? We still don't really have an adequate answer. If that was investigated and conclusions formed we weren't told about it. And we deserve to know the reason other than Trump is a bad man. The security failures were barely scratched in the 1/6 committee report.Grifman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:44 amI never understood why they didn’t cordon off the Capitol and just started arresting everyone within that perimeter.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:08 pmCan you imagine how much easier things would have been if a significant portion of 1/6 rioters were arrested then and there instead of taking 2+ years to still try and identify and then arrest them? It's so weird - that there wasn't a more aggressive police presence on 1/6. I guess we'll never know why.
FWIW I don't think it was some grand conspiracy. The agencies involved were unprepared, uncoordinated, and no one was in charge because the person who should have been in charge was behind it. The report fingers the right top-level person but there were layers of failure completely ignored down the chain. And I can't find any significant evidence they were addressed in any meaningful way since.
Congress wasn't calling the shots on treatment of the rioters. No one was which was the ultimate problem. As far as I can tell no one even ever set up an incident command for the event. Meanwhile Chief Sund is running around hawking a book and trying to blame anyone but himself. Which is all well and fine because ultimately like all Washington bog creatures he monetized failure.But it may have been that Congress wanted back in to finish the count and clearing the rioters out was quicker than arresting them.
- LordMortis
- Posts: 70399
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Does there need to be anything more than this for it to make sense? The PiC was either a malicious actor or completely inept and the or here is not an either/or. This was the omnipresent story between 2016 and 1/6.
-
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- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
Yes IMHO. The President doesn't command the Capitol police. He doesn't command the Metro PD. He isn't at the line level at the FBI or DHS or anything else. There are supposed to be competent officials there who can act independently if need be.LordMortis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:21 amDoes there need to be anything more than this for it to make sense?
Sure but even then we supposedly have all sorts of plans for continuity and chain of command. It all failed apparently and yet not much has been said about it. They threw a blanket over the victim, carted it off, and didn't even bother to do a real autopsy (that we know of). It's the sort of negligence that is all too common nowadays.The PiC was either a malicious actor or completely inept and the or here is not an either/or. This was the omnipresent story between 2016 and 1/6.
- LawBeefaroni
- Forum Moderator
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- Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything
Re: Brasil's Jan 6
malchior wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:18 amThat was a question asked for weeks and months afterwards. And what's crazy? We still don't really have an adequate answer. If that was investigated and conclusions formed we weren't told about it. And we deserve to know the reason other than Trump is a bad man. The security failures were barely scratched in the 1/6 committee report.Grifman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2023 8:44 amI never understood why they didn’t cordon off the Capitol and just started arresting everyone within that perimeter.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:08 pmCan you imagine how much easier things would have been if a significant portion of 1/6 rioters were arrested then and there instead of taking 2+ years to still try and identify and then arrest them? It's so weird - that there wasn't a more aggressive police presence on 1/6. I guess we'll never know why.
FWIW I don't think it was some grand conspiracy. The agencies involved were unprepared, uncoordinated, and no one was in charge because the person who should have been in charge was behind it. The report fingers the right top-level person but there were layers of failure completely ignored down the chain. And I can't find any significant evidence they were addressed in any meaningful way since.
Congress wasn't calling the shots on treatment of the rioters. No one was which was the ultimate problem. As far as I can tell no one even ever set up an incident command for the event. Meanwhile Chief Sund is running around hawking a book and trying to blame anyone but himself. Which is all well and fine because ultimately like all Washington bog creatures he monetized failure.But it may have been that Congress wanted back in to finish the count and clearing the rioters out was quicker than arresting them.
At the time I seem to recall that the US Capitol Police did not have the manpower to make arrests, it was all they could do to try to protect the Capitol and themselves. There were under 200 USCP officers at the Capitol and maybe 250 throughout rest of the area. of law enforcement officers (not counting those among the rioters). Their riot shields were defective and leadership tied their hands by not allowing less-lethal crowd control. Arrests were pretty much impossible until much later in the day.
Capitol Police leadership knew what was coming based on Department of Homeland Security and other reports, and yet declined to request NG backup for the event (this decision was made on Jan 3, IIRC). On the 5th, the National Park Service estimated a crowd of 30,000 would be there on the 6th, based on arrivals. Yet on the 6th, just USCP and some DC Metro officers (remember, Fanone was a DC cop) were there and they were grossly outmanned. While the Capitol was being breached, two hours after it all kicked off, they requested National Guard and the DoD declined. Then the DC mayor called VA and got VA State Troopers to backup DC Metro. VA governor called in the VA NG and the DoD again blocked them. At some point Fairfax VA police arrived too. The NG was only brought in after Trump did his "go home" speech. The FBI also sent in a small tac team around that time.
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"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton
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