Religion and Politics in Video Games

For discussion of religion and politics

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GreenGoo
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by GreenGoo »

You're welcome to your opinion of JK, just as others on the front lines are welcome to theirs. Clearly, you disagree with theirs. Ok.
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GreenGoo
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by GreenGoo »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:36 pm I always felt very conflicted about the Rowling controversy because the books always seemed to promote inclusivity, which didn't jibe with her purported stances.
Ask Lawbeef how inclusive Cho Chang is.

For the record I never felt HP ever promoted inclusivity. However, this is not something I intend to debate. Just my own impression of the books.
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Max Peck
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Max Peck »

You shouldn't feel like a criminal for liking Rowling's work, but you should also understand why some people who care deeply about transgender issues are not going to see you as a hero. The decisions we make and the actions we take are data points that others will use to assess our character.

This guy says it pretty eloquently, even if you don't share his opinion of Rowling: we have the right to make choices, and other people have the right to an opinion about what our choices say about our character.



To be clear, I don't consider anyone to be a bad person just because they bought, played and enjoyed Hogwarts Legacy*. By all accounts it's an excellent game, and I've even recommended it as such to a friend who asked if it was worth the asking price because their kid wanted it for their birthday. Now, if someone accuses me of not being an ally because of that, I accept it. They're as entitled to their opinion as I am to mine. I'm not playing the game myself, but that's because I've never been interested in Harry Potter, not because I have an opinion one way or the other about Rowling.

* Unless they did it to pwn the libs, in which case they're a bad person independently of whether or not they bought Hogwarts Legacy. They know what they did...
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YellowKing
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by YellowKing »

Max Peck wrote:You shouldn't feel like a criminal for liking Rowling's work, but you should also understand why some people who care deeply about transgender issues are not going to see you as a hero.
I'm not asking to be seen as a hero. I am saying if your opinion of me buying a video game = I'm a transphobe, then I think your opinion is grossly out of proportion to the actual act. And I will subsequently ignore it.

The guy in the video lost me when he compared Rowling's personal statements of opinion (misguided as they may be) to Cosby's sexual assaults. That's utterly ridiculous. It's that kind of disproportionate response that is driving a lot of backlash around "cancel culture."
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Max Peck
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Max Peck »

You're entitled to an opinion about other people's opinion of your opinion. It's a marvelous thing how it all works down the line.

I took his Cosby example is just that, an example of how people are going to react to choices we make. It didn't seem, to me, that he was saying that Rowling is a bad is Cosby, just that he wanted to use a relatively clear example how our choices reflect on others' opinion of us.
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YellowKing
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by YellowKing »

Right, I think we all understand that everyone's opinions are their personal opinions. I think the problem is when social media gives "everyone's personal opinions" undue weight.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:01 pm
Max Peck wrote:You shouldn't feel like a criminal for liking Rowling's work, but you should also understand why some people who care deeply about transgender issues are not going to see you as a hero.
I'm not asking to be seen as a hero. I am saying if your opinion of me buying a video game = I'm a transphobe, then I think your opinion is grossly out of proportion to the actual act. And I will subsequently ignore it.
That's not too far from how I've come to feel about it. I actually just read Rowling's entire article on the subject this morning. It wasn't what the responses had led me to believe. My impression that it was an angry person writing in response to attacks from a place of trauma. While I don't agree with most of her positions, or that her concerns are justified (although some of her questions bear at least asking), I didn't get the impression that her motivation was anti-trans. It wasn't hatred I saw in that article, it was fear related to her own history of assault and abuse.
The decisions we make and the actions we take are data points that others will use to assess our character.
There are a thousand data points about each individual that should be taken into account if such an assessment is worth the neurons it's printed on. Fixating on one that is incredibly minor as the only relevant data point is misguided. People who do so are welcome to their opinion, but I shouldn't be expected to give such an opinion much weight. "You walking in a hundred rights marches; you spoke out against anti-trans laws at dozens of council meetings ; you called every state and national congressperson about those same issues. But you played a Harry Potter game, so you can't claim to be for trans people."

Wha?
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Unagi
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Unagi »

YellowKing wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:17 pm Right, I think we all understand that everyone's opinions are their personal opinions. I think the problem is when social media gives "everyone's personal opinions" undue weight.
Especially if your are the famous author of a successful book series.
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Max Peck
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Max Peck »

Blackhawk wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:18 pm
The decisions we make and the actions we take are data points that others will use to assess our character.
There are a thousand data points about each individual that should be taken into account if such an assessment is worth the neurons it's printed on. Fixating on one that is incredibly minor as the only relevant data point is misguided. People who do so are welcome to their opinion, but I shouldn't be expected to give such an opinion much weight. "You walking in a hundred rights marches; you spoke out against anti-trans laws at dozens of council meetings ; you called every state and national congressperson about those same issues. But you played a Harry Potter game, so you can't claim to be for trans people."

Wha?
Wha?
Max Peck wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 4:33 pm To be clear, I don't consider anyone to be a bad person just because they bought, played and enjoyed Hogwarts Legacy*. By all accounts it's an excellent game, and I've even recommended it as such to a friend who asked if it was worth the asking price because their kid wanted it for their birthday.
If you're going to quote me to make a point, try not to misrepresent my actual position.
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GreenGoo
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by GreenGoo »

Perhaps if you send them your resumé, they'll stop harassing you.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Jaymon »

Morality.


Not everyone's line is drawn in the same place. And that is something we as humans have experienced for all of our known history. It can be different at a national, local, or personal level. And it can change due to discourse, personal experience, or even external force.

Just some of the things we are struggling with: When does life begin. Is it wrong to kill. What substances are ok to eat/smoke/drink/consume. What is gender. Is one gender/race/religion inherently superior to others. Whom can a person love. How much body covering is modest? Is a person a possession.


These topics and others go back a long time. A really long time. And after thousands of years of discussion both calm and violent, we still have a multitude of answers, and few universally agreed upon standards for morality. So the only way to be a respectful and productive member of society is to understand that others may not have the same views on moral issues, that others may not have their lines drawn in the same place. That doesn't mean you have to agree, that doesn't mean you have to subscribe to others views.

It just means you need to understand that other views exist, and thats just part of the human experience.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Pyperkub »

Another new release getting the political treatment:
Ukraine's Digital Ministry has said it will ask Steam, Microsoft, and Sony to remove Atomic Heart from their gaming platforms in Ukraine, and possibly elsewhere, pointing to its retro-Communist aesthetic and reported "Russian roots."

As reported by the Ukrainian tech news/job site Dev.ua (Google translation), Ukraine's Ministry of Digital Transformation (which also provided a statement in English to PCGamesN) writes that Atomic Heart "has Russian roots and romanticizes communist ideology and the Soviet Union." The Ministry cites the game's "toxicity," "potential data collection of users," and use of funds from the game "to conduct a war against Ukraine." The statement asks for an outright ban on the game in Ukraine but calls on other countries to consider "limiting distribution" of the game.

The Ministry also cites "media reports" regarding development funds coming from Russian enterprises and banks under sanction and "systematically important for the Russian government" (according to Google translation).

"We would also like to emphasize for the Western audience that the developers of the game did not come out with a public statement condemning the Putin regime" and the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Deputy Minister Oleksandr Bornyakov said in the statement.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

Jaymon wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:04 pm Morality.


Not everyone's line is drawn in the same place. And that is something we as humans have experienced for all of our known history. It can be different at a national, local, or personal level. And it can change due to discourse, personal experience, or even external force.

[snipping examples]

It just means you need to understand that other views exist, and thats just part of the human experience.
I absolutely agree. Except that there are differences between "understand that other views exist" and accepting those views as having a place in the world. Generally, just being bothered by them means that they do, regardless of my own feelings. But when the issue in question has victims, people who genuinely suffer due to one of the moral stances. When that happens...
Is a person a possession.
...then I have to say that there are limits to acceptance.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by hepcat »

Everyone who drives a Volkswagen isn’t a nazi. Only some of them.
Covfefe!
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Victoria Raverna »

From my understanding, what she said she against is for children to have sex change procedure? She want them to wait until they're adult and really sure that they want the sex change?

Is that it? Or I misunderstood?
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

It was more than that {although that was a core point.)

It's worth reading the actual post she wrote rather than going from various interpretations (including mine.)
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

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Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:35 pm It's worth reading the actual post she wrote rather than going from various interpretations (including mine.)
This. 1000X this.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Pyperkub »

Kurth wrote:
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:35 pm It's worth reading the actual post she wrote rather than going from various interpretations (including mine.)
This. 1000X this.
In conversations on social media with trans folk, one huge thing that came up was how betrayed they feel as HP's story and journey was so comforting to many of them growing up different.

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Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by Blackhawk »

Pyperkub wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:45 pm
Kurth wrote:
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:35 pm It's worth reading the actual post she wrote rather than going from various interpretations (including mine.)
This. 1000X this.
In conversations on social media with trans folk, one huge thing that came up was how betrayed they feel as HP's story and journey was so comforting to many of them growing up different.
Which is entirely justified.

This is tough to write. I don't want to defend her for the wrong things she's actually said, and this is dangerous territory to speak up in to begin with, but I don't think that our black-and-white response is the correct one. Not only that, this is making assumptions about things that she herself hasn't really gone into detail about, which is also a shaky foundation to form an opinion from. Anyway...

She's not on the right side of this at all - she's just not quite the villain with the waxed moustache, either. Like I said earlier, she seems (based on my reading of her article) to be speaking mostly from a position of fear and trauma rather than actual hatred. She doesn't want trans people to go away or suffer. She just wants women and children who have suffered like she has (something she's spent years championing) to feel safe and secure, and some elements of this seem to make her feel like that safety is being threatened. She desires, understandably, for women who have been the victims of sexual assault by men to be able to know, "There are no men here" in certain places, and feels that some of the things the trans rights movement is striving for makes that impossible. And for someone who has suffered extreme trauma, that may well be true - the very possibility that there's a man in the bathroom (regardless of the probability) could be extremely difficult and terrifying. Trauma leads to irrational fears.

What causes the biggest issues with her explanations, though, is that (again, just my impression) she's speaking about a fear (that men will pretend to be trans to assault women) that is irrational (but understandable with psychological trauma), and then looking for ways to rationalize and justify it. Those rationalizations extended to peripheral issues and have actually been used against trans people. That's a problem.

My feelings as a result are more sympathy than contempt. She needs to change her views, because some are hurtful and potentially harmful. And it's fair to call her out on those views, but she doesn't need to be punished by the entire world and treated as a pariah for it.

People are too complex to justify our black-and-white approach to some issues.
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Re: Religion and Politics in Video Games

Post by waitingtoconnect »

I’m not sure why she double downed and keeps doubling down on this topic. It’s selfish because literally a whole industry and thousands of people make a living of her work and collect residuals from their work on her creation.

Unlike Scott Adams if this is part of some scheme to get her books in as required reading in red states like Florida I can’t see it working.

It was very common for “men’s rights activists” in the Uk to dress up as women and claim to be women for the purposes of violent protest. And obviously as with all things there are bad people in all groups.

But that’s not an excuse to go after transgender people. The sort of hysteria we see that pretends they are some sort of monsters out to steal our bathrooms and convert our children to Satanism is absurd.
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