Unions

[Isgrimnur]

USA Today

Within 36 hours of the UAW strike against General Motors, the Detroit automaker announced a decision to shift worker health care payments to the union immediately — a strategy that risks dragging out the strike, labor negotiators say.
...
In response to criticism, GM spokesman Pat Morrissey referred to the company's statement released Tuesday: "We understand strikes are difficult and disruptive to families. While on strike, some benefits shift to being funded by the union’s strike fund, and in this case hourly employees are eligible for union-paid COBRA so their health care benefits can continue."
...
Legal experts nationally question the wisdom of the decision.

"This would really lay down the gauntlet," said William B. Gould IV, emeritus professor of law at Stanford University and former chairman of the National Labor Relations Board. "It certainly shows GM is playing hardball in a big way. I think it's a calculated decision to pressure the union. But it's like throwing a red flag before the bull."

It’s possible GM doesn’t believe that a prompt resolution can be realized unless the union can be squeezed, Gould observed.

[Isgrimnur]

Business Insider

More than 6,500 nurses in hospitals around California, Arizona, Florida, and Illinois are expected to go on strike today. The walkout would be the first nurse strike in Arizona and the first hospital registered-nurse strike in Florida.

Nurses who are part of the National Nurses United union are asking for better nurse retention and nurse-to-patient ratios. Most nurses who will be participating in the strike are employed with Tenet Healthcare, a multinational health-services company that operates 65 hospitals and 500 other healthcare facilities.

Four nurses told Business Insider they had been negotiating with Tenet over their contract for over a year and hadn't received the concessions they're demanding.
...
Nurses who work for the University of Chicago Medical Center plan to strike for five days over nurse-to-patient ratios. These nurses are not affiliated with Tenet but are part of the NNU union. About 2,200 nurses from the University of Chicago are expected to go on strike.

[Isgrimnur]

CNN

The Center for Automotive Research, a Michigan think tank, estimates that for each hourly worker at GM, there are three to four workers in its base of suppliers supporting the company.

Even if a supplier provides parts to multiple automakers, cutting back the production it normally sends to GM means there's a good chance it's also cutting back hours and employment.
...
Zandi and other economists say the Midwest's economy won't be tipped into recession overnight, or even in a couple of weeks. But if the strike drags on for months, states such as Michigan, Ohio and Indiana could end up in recession later this year or early next year.
...
The impact of the strike can be felt outside the United States as well. The automaker confirmed Wednesday that it had temporarily laid off 1,200 workers in Oshawa, Ontario, who were building the older versions of the Silverado and Sierra pickups there because they couldn't get the parts from GM's US plants.
...
One area that isn't likely to suffer layoffs in the near term is GM's network of dealerships, which are privately owned businesses and not part of the company. GM said it has a sufficient supply of vehicles on hand to fill a couple of months of demand. But if the strike does stretch on long-term, those dealerships' staff could be hurt from reduced sales and commissions as well.

[Isgrimnur]

Jalopnik

General Motors decides to “do what’s right” after considerable pressure and criticism, Toyota deepens its ties with Subaru, auto workers fear the labor impact of electric cars and more for this Morning Shift of Friday, Sept. 27, 2019.

GM’s union workers remain on strike for the 12th day, but they return to the picket line with their healthcare intact.
...
But after criticism from the public and lawmakers, and after realizing it probably won’t be the workers who back down this time, GM has opted to reinstate healthcare for those on strike. “This is truly an attempt to do what’s right for our employees,” spokesman Dan Flores told The Detroit Free Press.

According to interviews Jalopnik had with UAW officials yesterday, GM may have also been contractually obligated to do this, at least through the end of the month.
...
But the auto industry is a big one that’s more than just car plants. One supplier, Detroit-based driveline manufacturer American Axle, said it’ll do temporary layoffs as GM goes on strike. GM is American Axle’s biggest client, responsible for 39 percent of its revenue. Via Bloomberg:
...
To wrap up a lot of things we talked about today, here’s one last story from Bloomberg about how auto workers—including those on the strike or watching it unfold—are quite fearful about electric vehicles. Specifically, how they have fewer parts and generally require less labor to build, threatening their jobs.

In fact, one study cited in the story said it takes 40 percent fewer hours to assemble an electric motor and battery than a traditional engine and transmission. And “engines and transmissions currently account for just under half of automaker manufacturing capacity,” which I did not know until now.

[LordMortis]

To wrap up a lot of things we talked about today, here’s one last story from Bloomberg about how auto workers—including those on the strike or watching it unfold—are quite fearful about electric vehicles. Specifically, how they have fewer parts and generally require less labor to build, threatening their jobs.

In fact, one study cited in the story said it takes 40 percent fewer hours to assemble an electric motor and battery than a traditional engine and transmission. And “engines and transmissions currently account for just under half of automaker manufacturing capacity,” which I did not know until now.

I did not know that either (though technically I still don't know that, I just have the quote's word for it) I knew that that EVs almost universally have less moving parts which leads to less points of failure but had no idea their assembly was less time intensive and that they'd have fewer parts in general.

/tries but ultimately fails to refrain from making a comment about his mental leap to loss of manufacturing and assembly job loss being being solved by becoming isolationist and protectionist by making America First "trade agreements".

[stessier]

I can understand being upset with a decrease in jobs, but I can't understand expecting a manufacturer to keep or increase the number of jobs over time. The products are changing. The personnel requirements are going to change to. Such is life.

[Isgrimnur]

TechCrunch

The workers strike against General Motors — now in its third week — has cost the automaker more than $1 billion during the third quarter, according to a research note from J.P. Morgan analyst Ryan Brickman.
...
AP reported Tuesday that GM has shut down its pickup truck and transmission factories in Silao, Mexico, affecting 6,000 workers there. GM also had to close an engine factory in Mexico and an assembly plant in Canada because of the strike.

[Isgrimnur]

CNN

Talks between the United Auto Workers union and General Motors "have taken a turn for the worse," according to the union's chief negotiator, suggesting that no immediate end is in sight for the auto industry's longest strike in decades.

The setback in talks followed several days of reported progress between the two sides. They hope to reach a new four-year deal.

Terry Dittes, the vice president of the United Auto Workers union negotiating team, sent a letter to members midday Sunday saying that the union found the company's latest contract proposal to be totally unacceptable to the union.

"They reverted back to their last rejected proposal and made little change," said Dittes' letter. He said the union negotiators "could not be more disappointed" in GM's position.

[Isgrimnur]

USA Today

The Chicago teachers strike ended Thursday afternoon with the mayor and the union president agreeing on one last detail: having teachers and students make up five of the 11 days lost to the historic strike in the nation's third-largest school district.

Chicago public schools students will return to class Friday, according to the union.

Negotiations came to a dramatic head late Wednesday night at a raucous, hours-long meeting of the 700-member governing body of Chicago Teachers Union. Delegates voted by about a 60-40 majority to accept a tentative agreement with City Hall but to continue striking Thursday until the mayor agreed to make up lost instructional time – essentially, as the mayor put it, paying them for the days they were striking.
...
Teachers had gone without pay during the strike, and Lightfoot had been firm about not wanting to extend the school year or cut into scheduled breaks. But by Thursday, she said it was in the interest of everyone to get back to class.

Happy Halloween. You go back to school tomorrow.

[LawBeefaroni]

Yep, the one day we were all hoping to have no school.

Also, first big snowfall today. Going to be a disaster tomorrow.


Also, CTU miscalculated, mayor won. But they're all assholes (city and CTU leadership, not rank and file teachers).

[Zarathud]

Mayor showed she was going to stick it back to the Union. A strike on Nov. 1 would leave a health insurance gap. There will be political consequences.

The Mayor’s offer last night would have left Chicago Schools 2 days short of state standards. Teachers were ridiculous to trying holding over for 10 more teaching days at the end of the year. 5 days was the right number and apparently they gor creative on when to fill in some days during the year.

Snow and Back to School. What a Trick to play on the kids for Halloween.

[malchior]

Think this thread is a place to park this since the National FOP is not strictly a union but more so the parent organization of many police unions. This isn't at all concerning, right? The police are essentially throwing in with a hard right authoritarian and parroting GOP bullshit. Awesome.

[Zarathud]

All Criminals Matter?

Not what the FOP stands for....

[Unagi]

Think this thread is a place to park this since the National FOP is not strictly a union but more so the parent organization of many police unions. This isn't at all concerning, right? The police are essentially throwing in with a hard right authoritarian and parroting GOP bullshit. Awesome.

As a donor , this really pissed me off.


I just called the person on the memo there and got to his personal voicemail and left him a short message about how I’d now longer donate based on the message his memo.


I hope more do that.


Edit: actually, I think it’s been over a decade since I ever gave to them. IIRC, it started to feel like a shakedown and I stopped.

Bleh. These guys suck.

[LawBeefaroni]

100 Club of Chicago


The FOP is a political organization, like most unions.

[LawBeefaroni]

Also:

Detroit — United Auto Workers President Gary Jones and a top aide were accused Thursday of conspiring to embezzle as much as $700,000 in member dues and splitting the money, according to a new criminal filing that marked a dramatic escalation of a years-long corruption investigation.

[Isgrimnur]

Reuters

The U.S. government may still seek to take control of the United Auto Workers Union (UAW) once its investigators determine the depths of corruption in the union, U.S. Attorney Matthew Schneider said in an interview with Detroit News on Sunday.

U.S. prosecutors are currently investigating former members of the union in connection with a corruption probe. A former UAW board member has been charged with conspiring with other union leaders to embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars of rank-and-file members’ dues.
...
Acting UAW President Rory Gamble has promised to clean up the union and avoid a possible U.S. government takeover of the labor organization.

UAW spokesman Brian Rothenberg defended union’s reforms.

“On Monday, we will announce significant accounting changes and financial controls that will tighten up our procedures and prevent future misfeasance,” Rothenberg said in statement cited by Detroit News.

[Pyperkub]

Reuters

The U.S. government may still seek to take control of the United Auto Workers Union (UAW) once its investigators determine the depths of corruption in the union, U.S. Attorney Matthew Schneider said in an interview with Detroit News on Sunday.

U.S. prosecutors are currently investigating former members of the union in connection with a corruption probe. A former UAW board member has been charged with conspiring with other union leaders to embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars of rank-and-file members’ dues.
...
Acting UAW President Rory Gamble has promised to clean up the union and avoid a possible U.S. government takeover of the labor organization.

UAW spokesman Brian Rothenberg defended union’s reforms.

“On Monday, we will announce significant accounting changes and financial controls that will tighten up our procedures and prevent future misfeasance,” Rothenberg said in statement cited by Detroit News.

So, if Gov't ownership of the means of production is Socialism!, what is Gov't ownership of a Union?

[Isgrimnur]

Has anyone told him that the people that work doing automobiles at the UAW and GM have been working on selling Lordstown for EV related production?

ars technica

Electric vehicle startup Lordstown Motors said Tuesday it does not have enough money to start commercial production and runs the risk of failing as a business, sending its stock tumbling.

The company on Tuesday amended its annual report with the Securities and Exchange Commission to say in one year it may no longer function as “a going concern.”

The company said that with its current cash and cash equivalents of $587 million as of the end of the first quarter, it did not have enough funding to launch the Endurance, an electric pickup truck geared toward commercial operators.
...
Lordstown said it was attempting to find more funding but could not guarantee it would be successful. Its shares plunged 16 percent to close at $11.22 and continued falling in after-hours trading.

The company has reeled since it was accused earlier this year by a short seller of inflating orders, which it denies.

Lordstown Motors first attracted attention in 2019 when it took over a former General Motors plant and promised to hire 400 workers to build electric vehicles there. President Donald Trump had lambasted GM after it closed the plant in Ohio, a politically important state in the Midwest.

GM loaned Lordstown Motors $40 million for the purchase and also invested $75 million in the company.

[Isgrimnur]

CNBC, May

Dennis Williams is the highest-ranking union official to be sentenced as part of a multiyear corruption probe into the prominent American labor union. He is one of 15 people to have been charged, including three Fiat Chrysler executives and his successor, who is awaiting sentencing.
...
Williams pleaded guilty in September to conspiring with other union officials to embezzle hundreds of thousands of dollars, as part of a plea deal with federal prosecutors. Under terms of the agreement, his sentence would be between 18 and 24 months.

Williams was also instructed to pay $147,976 in restitution, including $132,517 to the UAW and $15,459 to the Internal Revenue Service.

[Isgrimnur]

Workers strike at all 3 Detroit automakers, a new tactic to squeeze companies for better pay

Nearly one in 10 of America’s unionized auto workers went on strike Friday to pressure Detroit’s three automakers into raising wages in an era of big profits and as the industry begins a costly transition from gas guzzlers to electric vehicles.

By striking simultaneously at General Motors, Ford and Chrysler owner Stellantis for the first time in its history, the United Auto Workers union is trying to inflict a new kind of pain on the companies in hopes of clawing back some pay and benefits workers gave up in recent decades.

The strikes are limited for now to three assembly plants: a GM factory in Wentzville, Missouri, a Ford plant in Wayne, Michigan, near Detroit, and a Jeep plant run by Stellantis in Toledo, Ohio.

[GreenGoo]

I'm still waiting for headlines that read "Corps continue to reduce benefits in an effort to squeeze more blood from a stone. I mean, workers".

edit: Was missing two to's, too.

[Kraken]

Workers are currently in a rare strong position. It won't last, so of course they have to go for the whole banana while they can. This new tactic of escalating targeted strikes, rather than shutting 'er all down at once, seems inspired to me.

That said, I hope this doesn't go on long enough to tip us into that recession we keep avoiding, and I know that my friends and family in Michigan will be disproportionately affected. That state's fortunes always rise and fall with the carmakers.

[disarm]

I've been watching the UAW situations closely because I have a Ram truck on order since the end of July that just started the build process...on the assembly line right now, and hoping it's finished before they shut down.

While I don't disagree that the union workers could probably be paid more given the profits that the Big 3 (Ford, GM, Chrysler) are seeing, I think some of their demands are excessive. In addition to a 46% hourly wage increase, they're also asking to only work a 32-hour week but still get paid for 40 hours. That seems ridiculous in my opinion. Why should they not only get paid a huge amount more for each hour they work, but also get paid that same increased rate for eight hours of sitting at home every week? I'm sure we all wish that we could get paid for doing nothing, but it's an absurd request.

I'm all for things like better healthcare (although what they get is already better than most), revision of two-tier employment systems and improved retirement programs for workers, but expecting to leverage the companies back to providing old-fashioned pensions is, in my opinion, unrealistic.

Of course the question from the other side is why the UAW workers should be entitled to any of their demands when non-union workers for other car manufacturers in the US don't have nearly the same deal. Can the Big 3 still innovate and compete with non-union manufacturers when their employment costs so far exceed that of their competitors?

The whole thing is a mess with no end as long as the UAW exists. I'm not saying the situation would be better without them, but I do think there are limits to what is reasonable compensation for sometimes-difficult, but largely unskilled, labor. Asking to be paid a high wage for work you don't even do seems to be crossing the line.

[Blackhawk]

You don't start your bargaining with what you actually want to end up with.

[Alefroth]

I've been watching the UAW situations closely because I have a Ram truck on order since the end of July that just started the build process...on the assembly line right now, and hoping it's finished before they shut down.

While I don't disagree that the union workers could probably be paid more given the profits that the Big 3 (Ford, GM, Chrysler) are seeing, I think some of their demands are excessive. In addition to a 46% hourly wage increase, they're also asking to only work a 32-hour week but still get paid for 40 hours. That seems ridiculous in my opinion. Why should they not only get paid a huge amount more for each hour they work, but also get paid that same increased rate for eight hours of sitting at home every week? I'm sure we all wish that we could get paid for doing nothing, but it's an absurd request.

I'm all for things like better healthcare (although what they get is already better than most), revision of two-tier employment systems and improved retirement programs for workers, but expecting to leverage the companies back to providing old-fashioned pensions is, in my opinion, unrealistic.

Of course the question from the other side is why the UAW workers should be entitled to any of their demands when non-union workers for other car manufacturers in the US don't have nearly the same deal. Can the Big 3 still innovate and compete with non-union manufacturers when their employment costs so far exceed that of their competitors?

The whole thing is a mess with no end as long as the UAW exists. I'm not saying the situation would be better without them, but I do think there are limits to what is reasonable compensation for sometimes-difficult, but largely unskilled, labor. Asking to be paid a high wage for work you don't even do seems to be crossing the line.

No complaints about the absurdly high wages the CEO makes or how many hours they put in?

[stessier]

The 40 hour work week came about when it was discovered that there was very little productivity gained by the 48 hour work week. Henry Ford was the first large scale to change to it and keep paying the 48 hour wages... So there is precedent for the request.

[disarm]

In my opinion, saying that blue-collar workers who may be minimally skilled or educated just because CEOs are well paid is a straw man argument.

The expense of paying 145,000+ UAW workers the increased wages and benefits they are demanding far exceeds the salaries paid to all of the Big 3 CEOs combined. If you took the entire $75 million that those three CEOs cumulatively were paid last year and divided it among their 145k UAW workers, each union worker would be paid just over $500. Also consider that CEOs are highly educated, experienced business people who did work hard to get their positions and fill a crucial role for the corporation. If anyone could do their job, then corporations wouldn't need to pay high salaries to attract and retain effective CEOs; they could just hire high school drop outs and use the saved money to pay out larger dividends to the owners. CEO pay is not the problem.

[malchior]

In my opinion, saying that blue-collar workers who may be minimally skilled or educated just because CEOs are well paid is a straw man argument.

Wow. So much has been revealed by this phrasing. Quick question? Do you actually know how skilled they are or any of the relevant economics pertinent to this negotiation? I certainly don't so I don't really have a good framework to evaluate their demands as ridiculous or not. I suspect that would be same for most people not well versed in big 3 operations and financials though.

The expense of paying 145,000+ UAW workers the increased wages and benefits they are demanding far exceeds the salaries paid to all of the Big 3 CEOs combined. If you took the entire $75 million that those three CEOs cumulatively were paid last year and divided it among their 145k UAW workers, each union worker would be paid just over $500.

The natural question is do we know what their pay increases have been vs. the return on their performance over time? Do we know the same for the workers? This isn't necessarily so straightforward and we should keep in mind some of the numbers being thrown around are...just negotiating.

Also consider that CEOs are highly educated, experienced business people who did work hard to get their positions and fill a crucial role for the corporation. If anyone could do their job, then corporations wouldn't need to pay high salaries to attract and retain effective CEOs; they could just hire high school drop outs and use the saved money to pay out larger dividends to the owners. CEO pay is not the problem.

Again much is revealed here.

[LordMortis]

Wayne Assembly is just a couple of miles from my house. I'm not sure how I feel on the whole thing. It's gonna hurt the area. From Ford's perspective, the union worker is averaging around $65 an hour (I assume that includes benefits and PTO as part of the figure). For comparison's sake, the average Tesla worker makes around $45 an hour. If Ford ups to $100 an hour over the next four years, how do you compete with shops making less than half that, often with many less workers per vehicle?

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/ ... egins.aspx

The strike occurs as automakers have spent billions on electric vehicle and battery production, expenditures that might make a sharp rise in labor costs more difficult. Under the companies' old contract, hourly labor costs average $65, including benefits, compared with Tesla's $45. The UAW has said that labor accounts for less than 5 percent of the costs per vehicle.

I don't hate unions or begrudge people a decent wage, but cars ain't cheap no more and more jobs are going to go carpetbagger companies and to Mexico if you make it so making cars loses money. We talk about record profits but Ford lost $2 Billion last year trying become more competitive in EV market.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/02/busi ... -2022.html

Ford Motor said on Thursday that it lost $2.2 billion in 2022 as it wrote down the value of two big investments and struggled with high costs and supply chain problems.

I fear for the company's future and was debating selling of my small positions today. I'll be thinking about it again next week, possibly just rolling that money into the S&P or a market sector ETF.

[Holman]

Never forget that talk of jobs "going to Mexico" or "going to China" is a smokescreen.

Jobs don't move on their own. When jobs "go" abroad and this hurts the American economy, it's because one of those absurdly paid CEOs made the decision to *move* them there.

[disarm]

In my opinion, saying that blue-collar workers who may be minimally skilled or educated just because CEOs are well paid is a straw man argument.

Wow. So much has been revealed by this phrasing. Quick question? Do you actually know how skilled they are or any of the relevant economics pertinent to this negotiation? I certainly don't...

What do you think is revealed? I put the word "may" in my phrasing for a reason. Some UAW workers may be very skilled at what they do, but some may have just been hired last week with absolutely no prior manufacturing experience or even a high school diploma. How many assembly line workers at GM have the education or experience to match the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation? I will admit that I don't know the official answer, but I think I can make a pretty good guess.

Also consider that CEOs are highly educated, experienced business people who did work hard to get their positions and fill a crucial role for the corporation. If anyone could do their job, then corporations wouldn't need to pay high salaries to attract and retain effective CEOs; they could just hire high school drop outs and use the saved money to pay out larger dividends to the owners. CEO pay is not the problem.

Again much is revealed here.

Still not sure what you think is revealed. Are you suggesting that this is untrue and that corporations choose to compensate experienced, effective CEOs well purely out of the goodness of their hearts rather than doing it out of necessity? Just like a sports team, you can't attract or keep good talent without paying a high price. That's the way corporate America works.

I'm not saying that workers don't deserve more when their employers (the corporations) are making huge profits. I am saying that attacking what a CEO is paid is the wrong argument to make. They are an employee of the corporation who earns their compensation just like anyone else, and you could stop paying them entirely and it would come nowhere close to covering the expense of what the UAW is asking for right now.

[malchior]

In my opinion, saying that blue-collar workers who may be minimally skilled or educated just because CEOs are well paid is a straw man argument.

Wow. So much has been revealed by this phrasing. Quick question? Do you actually know how skilled they are or any of the relevant economics pertinent to this negotiation? I certainly don't...

What do you think is revealed? I put the word "may" in my phrasing for a reason. Some UAW workers may be very skilled at what they do, but some may have just been hired last week with absolutely no prior manufacturing experience or even a high school diploma. How many assembly line workers at GM have the education or experience to match the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation? I will admit that I don't know the official answer, but I think I can make a pretty good guess.

This is fine and all. I get the estimation driving the comment. What I was pointing out was that you are seemingly willing to make broad generalizations about the relative economic worth of the two parties and what drives their compensation. On one side you seem to be characterizing worker's skills (despite the tepid qualification) as potentially low to average and outright say their pay and work demands are unreasonable. You also seemingly just accept that the CEOs must be skilled and there is a heavy implication they are being fairly compensated. This is an inherently a biased construction.

So when someone asks a ... yes reductive ... question about CEO pay it was casually dismissed when it is actually highly relevant question when talking about labor negotiations. Put aside this particular case and just looking at public corporation CEO pay we can make some reasonable and fair generalizations. We know that CEO pay has been growing across all corporations well out of line with productivity for decades. This has compounded to it being orders of magnitude higher when we look at the ratio of CEO/average worker than it was in the 50s, 60, and 70s. That's just facts. On the other side of the ledger worker compensation (again on average - even for union workers) has lagged productivity since the late 70s.

So when people bring up CEO pay - it isn't in some vacuum. No matter whether it is $500/worker or $x CEO pay does have impact on the funds available to pay workers. That's just reality. Attempts to win concessions by labor are an attempt to balance those scales.

Also consider that CEOs are highly educated, experienced business people who did work hard to get their positions and fill a crucial role for the corporation. If anyone could do their job, then corporations wouldn't need to pay high salaries to attract and retain effective CEOs; they could just hire high school drop outs and use the saved money to pay out larger dividends to the owners. CEO pay is not the problem.

Again much is revealed here.

Still not sure what you think is revealed. Are you suggesting that this is untrue and that corporations choose to compensate experienced, effective CEOs well purely out of the goodness of their hearts rather than doing it out of necessity? Just like a sports team, you can't attract or keep good talent without paying a high price. That's the way corporate America works.

Again what is revealed is the bias of the construction. The implication is that CEOs like sports figures are being fairly compensated because the market wills it. But this (admittedly oversimplified boildown) potentially overlooks how the market has been distorted.

For example, boards are often cross-populated with CEOs from other companies. They often have an interest in high CEO pay. That is balanced to some extent but it's been highlighted as a driver of CEO pay inflation for decades. Outside the board in the policy space, CEOs have excess power and overwhelming voices in regards to tax policy and regulation that impacts their pay. And there are many other drivers like this. I'm not one to say the game is rigged because that's too simplistic. However, economic policy has been long been out of line in "managements" direction for ... 45-ish years now. I don't think we should just accept that they are being fairly paid when the system has dramatically shifted in ways that have shifted the ratio of rewards captured from labor towards top management. When viewed in that larger frame it certainly doesn't insulate them from criticism about the income and wealth disparities that have been seen. Which incidentally has been linked as a major driver of populism and a significant factor about why our country is falling down around us.

I'm not saying that workers don't deserve more when their employers (the corporations) are making huge profits. I am saying that attacking what a CEO is paid is the wrong argument to make.

It's not necessarily the wrong or unreasonable argument to make though. To boil down the above, three people make on average over $20M per year each to run these corporations. We can talk about the free market all we want but CEO pay has become unmoored from performance for decades now. And the opposite has largely happened with labor pay. It's entirely reasonable to argue that CEOs are overcompensated in relation to worker pay.

They are an employee of the corporation who earns their compensation just like anyone else, and you could stop paying them entirely and it would come nowhere close to covering the expense of what the UAW is asking for right now.

This oversimplifies the dynamic. Their pay doesn't have to cover the demands. These companies are creating record profits right now. Another thing to consider is that CEOs are ultimately accountable for allocating profits to shareholders. Which almost always drives their cash and non-cash compensation. Again this makes their compensation fair game in the discussion. They aren't unlinked.

[Kraken]

You don't start your bargaining with what you actually want to end up with.

Aye. They're sticking with their opening gambit while management takes baby steps to feel them out. In any negotiations that don't involve trump, both sides want to get to Yes, and each wants the most favorable possible terms. The amount of time needed to get there depends on each party's patience, which means tolerance for pain.

The pain has barely even begun for either side.

I learned a bit about negotiation while working as a buyer for 10 years. It was for low stakes, but the dynamic is the same.

The angle that intrigues me -- and maybe I just missed it -- is Biden's role, if any. He's styled himself as the most pro-union president evar, but he also doesn't need any economic shocks during a campaign. I wonder how long he can float above the fray.

[malchior]

He made a relatively strong statement along the lines of record profits should lead to record contracts this evening.

[Kraken]

Good, I hadn't read that. Biden needs those autoworker votes as much as he needs a strong economy. Bonus for being the ethical position IMO.

[Isgrimnur]

Biden wants automakers to give UAW workers more in strike talks

U.S. President Joe Biden on Friday called on automakers to concede more to workers who walked off the job at Detroit's largest car companies, accusing them of enjoying record profits without sharing them fairly with workers.
...
"No one wants a strike, but I respect workers' right to use their options under the collective bargaining" system, Biden said. "I understand their frustration."

[Kraken]

Did you know that how you pronounce "unionized" depends on whether you're an economist or a chemist?

[Blackhawk]

(Took me a second.)

[LordMortis]

Was surprised how few people were out in front of Wayne Assembly at 09:30 this morning when I drove by and again how many were there were at 22:00 on the drive home. Considerably more at 22:00 on Saturday. Crazy.