Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Victoria Raverna]

And I would like to ignore Kurth's strongly biased and one sided bullshit.

[GreenGoo]

And I would like to ignore Kurth's strongly biased and one sided bullshit.

This is not the meaning of "ignore".

[Zarathud]

And I would like to ignore Kurth's strongly biased and one sided bullshit.

This is not the meaning of "ignore".

That IS the meaning of hypocrisy.

It also clearly shows Victoria Raverna’s lack of intellectual honesty, especially when they’ve publicly declared ignoring me.

[Blackhawk]

If you want to argue your personal dislikes, how about taking it to PMs?

[Victoria Raverna]

According to this article, the video of taking captive of the female soldiers was bad but the translation was wrong:

https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-touts-go ... es-1904155

The women in the recently released footage have been identified as Liri Albag, Karina Ariev, Agam Berger, Daniella Gilboa and Naama Levy, all Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) observers tasked with spotting hostile movement across the Israel-Gaza security fence, and all still believed to be in custody of other Palestinian factions, along with up to 123 other detainees.

Hamas fighters can be seen shouting at the women and threatening them with violence for the IDF's past actions in Gaza. One fighter refers to them as "sabaya," which means female captives, but is translated in the video's English-language subtitles as "girls (women who can get pregnant)," a translation that was disputed by a number of Arabic-language speakers on social media.

Seem like this is not the first time of mistranslation of the same word, here is one example from October 2023:

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/vide ... 023-11-08/

In an Oct. 22 post on messaging platform X, opens new tab, formerly known as Twitter, one user captioned the video: “Hamas posted its own videos boasting of the rape of Israeli girls. After the rape they were murdered. How low do you have to sink to defend these scum?”
The subtitles, however, do not represent the remarks made in Arabic.
At no time in the video is rape mentioned, according to a Reuters translation of the Arabic audio on the video, nor do any of the men say the woman is going to be raped.
In the video, one man says: “No, no, she is a female captive, leave her, leave her, she is a female captive. Take her back, take her back, she is a female captive. Go back to your place!”
He uses the Arabic term “sabia”, translating to “female captive” or “female prisoner of war”.
Reuters was unable to track down the original source of the video to identify the people shown in it and cannot confirm whether the men are Hamas militants.
The Israel Defense Forces said it cannot confirm or deny the contents of the video.

So in the video there don't have anyone that say "that can get pregnant". My guess is that the "that can get pregnant" was probably like when people asked for definition of women. And maybe for some people (anti trans?), definition of women are humans that can get pregnant.

From google translate, sabaya in Arabic translated to girl in English. Once again there is nothing there about "that can get pregnant".

[Victoria Raverna]

And I would like to ignore Kurth's strongly biased and one sided bullshit.

This is not the meaning of "ignore".

Don't quote me. You're going to make Kurth upset.

[ImLawBoy]

If there are concerns/recommendations about the ignore feature, those should be raised in the Meta forum where FishPants is more likely to actually see them. It should go without saying that these issues can and should be brought up in a civil manner without naming names or lobbing personal insults. I'd also like to see the personal insults toned down a bit here, too, no matter how justified one might think they are.

[Alefroth]

Once again there is nothing there about "that can get pregnant".

Well that's a relief. Much ado about nothing I guess.

[El Guapo]

Once again there is nothing there about "that can get pregnant".

Well that's a relief. Much ado about nothing I guess.

Does anyone here speak Arabic, by any chance?

I did some googling about this. My best reading of what I found is that sabaya is often used to refer to female POWs, but with a connotation that they are "spoils of war" of a sort. But hard for me to get a clear answer, especially since one's feelings of Israel / Hamas / etc. may color the translation that one finds most accurate.

[Victoria Raverna]

Once again there is nothing there about "that can get pregnant".

Well that's a relief. Much ado about nothing I guess.

Does anyone here speak Arabic, by any chance?

I did some googling about this. My best reading of what I found is that sabaya is often used to refer to female POWs, but with a connotation that they are "spoils of war" of a sort. But hard for me to get a clear answer, especially since one's feelings of Israel / Hamas / etc. may color the translation that one finds most accurate.

The word originally just mean girl (unmarried) but also can mean female captive or even slave. If we use the "girl" meaning, I guess it is translated to "gadis" in Indonesian which are what young woman are called. Unmarried female human that passed puberty so I guess that was where the "can get pregnant" come from.

I think this is less biased source of translation:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%B5%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%A9

I guess while originally it mean girl (unmarried), eventually it also became the word for female captive, female servant, female slave, etc. So it can have a bad connotation.

Just like kunoichi originally just mean female, but now it means female ninja.

Here are a tv series called Sabaya:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2062925/

It is about "Five different girls live together. Each day they face challenges, sadness, and happiness together. They love each other and they're basically a family.".

None of them are female captive, female slave, female servant. They're just girls or young women. To be fair I'm sure most of them "can get pregnant".

Or they can be two different words and one of them mean captive and the other one mean girl.

Young girls: صبايا

Captives: سبايا

Both sound almost the same for non Arabic speakers.

Whatever version of the meaning you use, they're never translated to "can get pregnant".

[Holman]

Language is local, especially where complicated social/gender/slang use is concerned. (See the difference between the English & American "fag" or "fanny.")

To understand the meaning in this instance, we need to know how Hamas fighters in Gaza typically use the word. An authoritative formal Arabic dictionary might miss that.

[Victoria Raverna]

Language is local, especially where complicated social/gender/slang use is concerned. (See the difference between the English & American "fag" or "fanny.")

To understand the meaning in this instance, we need to know how Hamas fighters in Gaza typically use the word. An authoritative formal Arabic dictionary might miss that.

Agree. I think they meant female captive. Now I don't know their version of female captive is what. Female captives that need to be treated well? Female captives that are practically sex slaves?

Still the used of the translation that include "that can get pregnant" is misleading. While girls or female captives can get pregnant, there is nothing about "can get pregnant" when they used the words (either girls or female captive version of the words).

[hepcat]

Well, thank goodness that video of the female hostages is actually just a scene from a Hamas sitcom about a group of friends living together in a big house.

[Alefroth]

Well, thank goodness that video of the female hostages is actually just a scene from a Hamas sitcom about a group of friends living together in a big house.

Right? I'm glad we are getting to the bottom of what the terms the terrorists used really mean.

[Victoria Raverna]

Well, thank goodness that video of the female hostages is actually just a scene from a Hamas sitcom about a group of friends living together in a big house.

So no apology for posting the misleading translation?

[hepcat]

Edit: I shouldn’t engage. Not worth it.

[Victoria Raverna]

So no apology for insinuating Hamas was right to murder around a thousand Israeli citizens on October 7th?

I still think back to the video of Hamas terrorists parading a half naked dead girl around in the back of their pickup truck immediately after Oct. 7th to cheers, and I realize I’m probably right assuming the worst about them.

That doesn’t mean I want Israel to keep up the siege. But it does mean I’m capable of seeing evil on both sides. Can you say the same? It’s becoming increasingly doubtful.

Of course I can but seem like it is okay to post "propaganda" from Israel government to equate Palestinians to human animals, but huge outrage when it is something against Israel.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that did a lot of bad and evil things including on October 7th but Israel also did a lot of bad things before and after October 7th. I think everyone agree here that what Hamas did on October 7th was bad. Everyone here condemn the October 7th attack.

On the other hand, not everyone condemn Israel's conduct at Gaza. There are posters that claimed that it was just a normal war situation where you have collateral damage, anyone that say otherwise are just repeating anti-Israel or anti Jews propaganda.

[Victoria Raverna]

I expected better from you, you are not someone like me who are now the public enemy here. A very evil person that support terrorists. I think you didn't know what the Hamas terrorists in the video were talking about so you trusted that Israel's foreign ministry to be honest about the translation because it is so easy to fact check them if they mislead people with the translation.

Now that you know, why it is so hard to correct the mistake and admit that you were mislead by the false translation? Why use joke to cover up your part in spreading the false translation?

[hepcat]

Unless you’re saying Hamas is representing all Palestinians now, why would I apologize to Hamas for believing they are murderous scumbags?

Are you seriously asking me to be nice to Hamas?

[Victoria Raverna]

Unless you’re saying Hamas is representing all Palestinians now, why would I apologize to Hamas for believing they are murderous scumbags?

Are you seriously asking me to be nice to Hamas?

Not to Hamas but to people here for spreading false translation?

But it is okay, you don't think you're wrong for posting the "can get pregnant" translation when the actual word was either girl or female captive. You're just a victim of the Israel foreign ministry.

[Zarathud]

It’s so sad to see Victoria Raverna double down and split hairs on “verified” rape or their own “translation” and then demand an apology from those who disagree.

When you strain all credibility, you’re going to get challenged. Ignore all you want, but eventually that single mindedness will dig you into a hole that’s inescapable.

Anyway, there’s one simple way to get to the bottom of Hamas’ treatment of their hostages — set them all free so they can tell their own stories.

[hepcat]

Unless you’re saying Hamas is representing all Palestinians now, why would I apologize to Hamas for believing they are murderous scumbags?

Are you seriously asking me to be nice to Hamas?

Not to Hamas but to people here for spreading false translation?

But it is okay, you don't think you're wrong for posting the "can get pregnant" translation when the actual word was either girl or female captive. You're just a victim of the Israel foreign ministry.

Folks here all agree Hamas is horrible, has committed rape as a weapon, has murdered innocent people young and old, paraded bodies of half naked dead girls around their villages like trophies, and has declared their end goal is the eradication of Jews. So nah, I don’t think I need to apologize for doing what you do when someone points out that yet another video you posted has a questionable meaning/is just propaganda. So move on.

[Victoria Raverna]

So just double standard? When you do it, we just move on. When I do it, it is a despicable thing to do? Okay. I understand.

[GreenGoo]

So just double standard? When you do it, we just move on. When I do it, it is a despicable thing to do? Okay. I understand.

I don't think you do.

[Victoria Raverna]

So just double standard? When you do it, we just move on. When I do it, it is a despicable thing to do? Okay. I understand.

I don't think you do.

Then explain. Why it is okay for him to post an Israeli propaganda and then when it was fact check and proven to be wrong, he just joke about it but I'm the bad person for posting news or opinions that criticize Israel or Biden?

Here is what he posted:

"Here are the girls who can get pregnant."

[Blackhawk]

So just double standard? When you do it, we just move on. When I do it, it is a despicable thing to do? Okay. I understand.

Because you don't move on. You double down. And then you turn around and do it again.

[TheMix]

So I haven't been following this discussion/thread closely, but, holey @#$%, man, is VR's issue with that video the possible/likely mis-translation of someone's words (and, no, I'm not going to watch it)? For fuck's sake... something something forest for the trees. Personally, I don't give a shit about the translation. It's the reality of the situation that is the problem. Not the translation.

[Blackhawk]

So I haven't been following this discussion/thread closely, but, holey @#$%, man, is VR's issue with that video the possible/likely mis-translation of someone's words (and, no, I'm not going to watch it)? For fuck's sake... something something forest for the trees. Personally, I don't give a shit about the translation. It's the reality of the situation that is the problem. Not the translation.

I think it goes deeper than that. VR has developed a very strong reputation for posting questionable content, then responding defensively and aggressively when called on that. It's led to some bad feelings from multiple angles. VR was, I think, objecting more to the fact that someone else posted bad info and wasn't called out as loudly, despite the context being entirely different.

Then again, VR seems to be a Hamas apologist (not Palestinian, Hamas), so nothing is off the table.

[Victoria Raverna]

So I haven't been following this discussion/thread closely, but, holey @#$%, man, is VR's issue with that video the possible/likely mis-translation of someone's words (and, no, I'm not going to watch it)? For fuck's sake... something something forest for the trees. Personally, I don't give a shit about the translation. It's the reality of the situation that is the problem. Not the translation.

I think it goes deeper than that. VR has developed a very strong reputation for posting questionable content, then responding defensively and aggressively when called on that. It's led to some bad feelings from multiple angles. VR was, I think, objecting more to the fact that someone else posted bad info and wasn't called out as loudly, despite the context being entirely different.

Then again, VR seems to be a Hamas apologist (not Palestinian, Hamas), so nothing is off the table.

Except when I posted "questionable content", it was mostly questionableopinions or unpopular opinions. Things like is it is genocide or not. Is Biden is weak or not when dealing with Israel. is the content of IDF videos misleading or not. Did IDF bomb hospital or it was rockets from Hamas or Jihadist. Opinions about an incident. I don't think I ever posted anything that was proven to be false when fact checked then I kept doubling down on it. I can admit when I'm wrong when proven with fact. But when it is about disagreement about something, I am someone that is going to defend my opinion no matter how wrong you think it is if you can't prove that I'm wrong then I am likely don't accept I'm wrong and I'll defend my opinion.

That is totally different on posting a twitter from Israel side with wrong translation then in the post focuses on that translation and imply that it is a proof that the Hamas soldiers are going to get those women pregnant by raping them. Now I think it is possible that some of those Hamas are rapists and going to rape those prisoners but none of them talk about "Here are the girls who can get pregnant". It was here are the girls or here are the female captives. Nothing about can get pregnant.

Now that was not a big deal to me. I was not going to be this upset about hepcat if he didn't respond to my explanation about the correct translation with multiple sources and examples with this:

Well, thank goodness that video of the female hostages is actually just a scene from a Hamas sitcom about a group of friends living together in a big house.

When I seriously tried to show that the translation was wrong but then he posted something like that. I took that as a direct insult because that was based on one of my example of the word Sabaya which I linked a tv sitcom about several girls that was called Sabaya.

[El Guapo]

So I haven't been following this discussion/thread closely, but, holey @#$%, man, is VR's issue with that video the possible/likely mis-translation of someone's words (and, no, I'm not going to watch it)? For fuck's sake... something something forest for the trees. Personally, I don't give a shit about the translation. It's the reality of the situation that is the problem. Not the translation.

There *is* a substantive issue with how one translate it, in that the question is essentially are the Hamas soldiers talking about the women in a way that implies that the women will likely be raped, or are they "only" talking about them as ordinary hostages (who may or may not be raped). Obviously the former is worse, although obviously everything about it is bad, so how much that matters - YMMV. VR also seems to be hung up on whether Hamas fighters raped women systematically or merely periodically, so...

[Victoria Raverna]

So I haven't been following this discussion/thread closely, but, holey @#$%, man, is VR's issue with that video the possible/likely mis-translation of someone's words (and, no, I'm not going to watch it)? For fuck's sake... something something forest for the trees. Personally, I don't give a shit about the translation. It's the reality of the situation that is the problem. Not the translation.

There *is* a substantive issue with how one translate it, in that the question is essentially are the Hamas soldiers talking about the women in a way that implies that the women will likely be raped, or are they "only" talking about them as ordinary hostages (who may or may not be raped). Obviously the former is worse, although obviously everything about it is bad, so how much that matters - YMMV. VR also seems to be hung up on whether Hamas fighters raped women systematically or merely periodically, so...

I have problem with propaganda like that which tried to paint Palestinians as human animals. Just be honest, do you think all people that consumed those propaganda is going to just think Hamas is bad but Palestinians are not all Hamas. Or a sizeable of them are going to think Hamas represent all Palestinians or all muslims and they're human animals and Palestinians deserved to be bombed and slaughtered. Their own fault, why they voted for Hamas, etc.

When Israel's government post examples of how bad Hamas are. They're not doing it to just show how bad Hamas are. They're doing to to get people to support their actions in Gaza. To make people think those Palestinians deserve it.

[Blackhawk]

When Israel's government post examples of how bad Hamas are. They're not doing it to just show how bad Hamas are. They're doing to to get people to support their actions in Gaza. To make people think those Palestinians deserve it.

Israel doesn't need to post examples for the world to know how bad Hamas is.

And Hamas?

They deserve it.

The problem is that Israel has decided that Hamas = Palestinians.

[El Guapo]

So I haven't been following this discussion/thread closely, but, holey @#$%, man, is VR's issue with that video the possible/likely mis-translation of someone's words (and, no, I'm not going to watch it)? For fuck's sake... something something forest for the trees. Personally, I don't give a shit about the translation. It's the reality of the situation that is the problem. Not the translation.

There *is* a substantive issue with how one translate it, in that the question is essentially are the Hamas soldiers talking about the women in a way that implies that the women will likely be raped, or are they "only" talking about them as ordinary hostages (who may or may not be raped). Obviously the former is worse, although obviously everything about it is bad, so how much that matters - YMMV. VR also seems to be hung up on whether Hamas fighters raped women systematically or merely periodically, so...

I have problem with propaganda like that which tried to paint Palestinians as human animals. Just be honest, do you think all people that consumed those propaganda is going to just think Hamas is bad but Palestinians are not all Hamas. Or a sizeable of them are going to think Hamas represent all Palestinians or all muslims and they're human animals and Palestinians deserved to be bombed and slaughtered. Their own fault, why they voted for Hamas, etc.

When Israel's government post examples of how bad Hamas are. They're not doing it to just show how bad Hamas are. They're doing to to get people to support their actions in Gaza. To make people think those Palestinians deserve it.

For better or worse Israel is fighting this war in front of the world (and in front of its own people), which means that domestic and international public opinion matters. Israel's argument is that Hamas needs to be destroyed and that the war is a necessary evil to accomplish that. Hamas's actions (of which October 7th is obviously front and center) are part of that. Is Israel supposed to say nothing about why Hamas is bad while it is fighting a war against Hamas?

Do you have this same issue when people post clips about a particular thing that Israel did which is bad?

[Alefroth]

paraded bodies of half naked dead girls around their villages like trophies,

Are you sure they were half naked, or is that just Israeli propaganda?

[LordMortis]

When Israel's government post examples of how bad Hamas are. They're not doing it to just show how bad Hamas are. They're doing to to get people to support their actions in Gaza.

This seems very much right. And the paid for sponsorship propaganda I've see on TV is pretty bad (and they always use a British accented narrator. I don't know why.)

To make people think those Palestinians deserve it.

This doesn't seem right. I haven't seen anything that suggests that Palestinians deserve the response. It might very well be what the Israeli government believes but the propaganda is suggesting that either we look the other way while the Palestinians suffer the atrocities they are suffering of their suffering is the cost of the war on Hamas. I don't know which. I don't like but that's not the same as messaging Palestinians deserve it.

[Blackhawk]

To make people think those Palestinians deserve it.

This doesn't seem right. I haven't seen anything that suggests that Palestinians deserve the response. It might very well be what the Israeli government believes but the propaganda is suggesting that either we look the other way while the Palestinians suffer the atrocities they are suffering of their suffering is the cost of the war on Hamas. I don't know which. I don't like but that's not the same as messaging Palestinians deserve it.

I don't think he was saying otherwise - he (seemed) to be saying that it was Israel's goal to convince people that it was deserved and/or necessary. Israel is operating, just like Hamas, on hatred. They're trying to convince the world that they're fully justified, regardless of how over-the-top their actions are.

[Kurth]

To make people think those Palestinians deserve it.

This doesn't seem right. I haven't seen anything that suggests that Palestinians deserve the response. It might very well be what the Israeli government believes but the propaganda is suggesting that either we look the other way while the Palestinians suffer the atrocities they are suffering of their suffering is the cost of the war on Hamas. I don't know which. I don't like but that's not the same as messaging Palestinians deserve it.

I don't think he was saying otherwise - he (seemed) to be saying that it was Israel's goal to convince people that it was deserved and/or necessary. Israel is operating, just like Hamas, on hatred. They're trying to convince the world that they're fully justified, regardless of how over-the-top their actions are.

Blackhawk, you seem to believe and have repeated many times that Israel’s war in Gaza is a war against the Palestinian people, not against Hamas. I understand why the effects and impact of the IDF’s actions on civilians in Gaza lead you to that conclusion, but I do think it’s important to understand that there’s a difference between impact and the objectives Israel is trying to achieve. The current operation in Rafa, for example, is going to have a terrible impact on the civilian population living there. But that’s not why the IDF insists on carrying out its operation. The IDF and Israel have very specific, concrete objectives that are not based in “hatred:”

For Israel, taking Rafah and the border would effectively complete the reconquest of Gaza and could mean a move to a different phase of lower-intensity raids. Rafah has in and under it the last four relatively organized Hamas battalions, a major tunnel infrastructure and rocket launchers, the Israelis say. More important, Israel wants to try to seal the border with Egypt to reduce the smuggling of weapons for the future.

Argue about whether Israel is wrong to value its security and the lives of its people over the lives of civilians in Gaza. Argue that the military objectives are not rationally justified by the loss of civilian life. But please don’t argue that Israel believes Hamas=Palestinians. Except maybe on the fringes, I don’t think that’s fair or backed up by evidence.

It’s also almost funny to me (if it weren’t such a tragic situation) to see people complaining that Israel is now scoring hits in a propaganda war. Israel has sucked at PR and the Palestinians have run circles around it in terms of rallying public support through propaganda since, like, forever. Dating back to the first and second intifadas and probably even before that, the Palestinians have run well-oiled PR campaigns that have been unbelievably successful in garnering sympathy and support. Of course, Israel has, time and again, given them plenty of grist for their PR mill, but the point is, they’ve been incredibly adept at using that against Israel.

[Blackhawk]

I never said that they were conducting a war against the Palestinian people. Their war is against Hamas, but they have minimal concern about who they trample along the way.

Hatred is not Israel's objective. Hatred is, however, a strong motivation, and I believe it to be a big part of why their concern for the Palestinian population is so insignificant.

[Kurth]

I never said that they were conducting a war against the Palestinian people. Their war is against Hamas, but they have minimal concern about who they trample along the way.

Hatred is not Israel's objective. Hatred is, however, a strong motivation, and I believe it to be a big part of why their concern for the Palestinian population is so insignificant.

Fair enough. But I was responding to this quote from you like 4 posts above:

The problem is that Israel has decided that Hamas = Palestinians.

That's the sentiment I'm taking issue with.

[Blackhawk]

Ok, I'll rephrase: Israel considers any Palestinian a potential member of Hamas (see also: Vietnam, or any other de facto insurgency.) And Israel puts no more value on the life of a Palestinian than they do a member of Hamas. There is so much bad blood between the two that while they don't necessarily equate the two, they also don't seem to be going out of their way to differentiate them.

(Before someone jumps in here, just because I'm only talking about Israel right now doesn't mean that I'm not aware of Hamas' contribution to the situation.)