Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Holman]

Ok, I'll rephrase: Israel considers any Palestinian a potential member of Hamas (see also: Vietnam, or any other de facto insurgency.) And Israel puts no more value on the life of a Palestinian than they do a member of Hamas. There is so much bad blood between the two that while they don't necessarily equate the two, they also don't seem to be going out of their way to differentiate them.

(Before someone jumps in here, just because I'm only talking about Israel right now doesn't mean that I'm not aware of Hamas' contribution to the situation.)

Good point.

Plus, the moral issue now is that the IDF is in a militarily unassailable position: it can choose to kill or cripple or starve its targets with very little risk of retaliation. That's why the moral critique and the moral burden is directed at Israel. At this point they have all the power, so they must of course be criticized when they abuse that power.

Saying this is in no way a defense or an erasure of the crimes of Hamas. It's just that Hamas is barely in a position to use their power to do serious harm at this point. Yes, IDF soldiers risk bullets, and yes rockets get launched. But Israel is overwhelmingly more powerful and has the benefit of the Iron Dome we supply them, as we should.

[Kurth]

Ok, I'll rephrase: Israel considers any Palestinian a potential member of Hamas (see also: Vietnam, or any other de facto insurgency.) And Israel puts no more value on the life of a Palestinian than they do a member of Hamas. There is so much bad blood between the two that while they don't necessarily equate the two, they also don't seem to be going out of their way to differentiate them.

(Before someone jumps in here, just because I'm only talking about Israel right now doesn't mean that I'm not aware of Hamas' contribution to the situation.)

Every Palestinian is, in fact, a potential member of Hamas. Let’s not forget: Hamas was elected by the civilian population of Gaza to represent them as their government when Israel unilaterally pulled out of the Gaza Strip. So, I think you’re right about the first sentence.

I take issue with the second, though. There are surely people on the far right in Israel who value Palestinian lives no more than they do the lives of Hamas. But, even with widespread support in Israel for the ongoing military campaign in Gaza, I’d argue that the majority of Israelis (including in the IDF) do not hold that view.

[Kurth]

Ok, I'll rephrase: Israel considers any Palestinian a potential member of Hamas (see also: Vietnam, or any other de facto insurgency.) And Israel puts no more value on the life of a Palestinian than they do a member of Hamas. There is so much bad blood between the two that while they don't necessarily equate the two, they also don't seem to be going out of their way to differentiate them.

(Before someone jumps in here, just because I'm only talking about Israel right now doesn't mean that I'm not aware of Hamas' contribution to the situation.)

Good point.

Plus, the moral issue now is that the IDF is in a militarily unassailable position: it can choose to kill or cripple or starve its targets with very little risk of retaliation. That's why the moral critique and the moral burden is directed at Israel. At this point they have all the power, so they must of course be criticized when they abuse that power.

Saying this is in no way a defense or an erasure of the crimes of Hamas. It's just that Hamas is barely in a position to use their power to do serious harm at this point. Yes, IDF soldiers risk bullets, and yes rockets get launched. But Israel is overwhelmingly more powerful and has the benefit of the Iron Dome we supply them, as we should.

I think many, many in Israel would vehemently disagree with your appraisal of the country’s security situation.

I also think that drives much of the lack of understanding about what Israel is doing in Gaza. Israel does not believe - not for a second - that it is in a militarily “unassailable position.”

After October 7, I think it’s going to be a long, long time before Israel returns to that level of complacency.

[El Guapo]

Ok, I'll rephrase: Israel considers any Palestinian a potential member of Hamas (see also: Vietnam, or any other de facto insurgency.) And Israel puts no more value on the life of a Palestinian than they do a member of Hamas. There is so much bad blood between the two that while they don't necessarily equate the two, they also don't seem to be going out of their way to differentiate them.

FWIW I would say that the far-right parties in Netanyahu's coalition think along these lines, but most of Israel (even most of the government) does not. That said, unfortunately right now those far right parties hold disproportionate sway over Israeli policy (though not over the war council, I think). The current government can't get swept out of power fast enough.

[Blackhawk]

Ok, I'll rephrase: Israel considers any Palestinian a potential member of Hamas (see also: Vietnam, or any other de facto insurgency.) And Israel puts no more value on the life of a Palestinian than they do a member of Hamas. There is so much bad blood between the two that while they don't necessarily equate the two, they also don't seem to be going out of their way to differentiate them.

FWIW I would say that the far-right parties in Netanyahu's coalition think along these lines, but most of Israel (even most of the government) does not. That said, unfortunately right now those far right parties hold disproportionate sway over Israeli policy (though not over the war council, I think). The current government can't get swept out of power fast enough.

Yeah, I'm speaking of the hand on the tiller, not the passengers.

[gbasden]

Every Palestinian is, in fact, a potential member of Hamas. Let’s not forget: Hamas was elected by the civilian population of Gaza to represent them as their government when Israel unilaterally pulled out of the Gaza Strip. So, I think you’re right about the first sentence.

I take issue with the second, though. There are surely people on the far right in Israel who value Palestinian lives no more than they do the lives of Hamas. But, even with widespread support in Israel for the ongoing military campaign in Gaza, I’d argue that the majority of Israelis (including in the IDF) do not hold that view.

The way they are prosecuting this war and the blatant disregard for civilian lives certainly seems to indicate that the people calling the shots, literally, feel that way.

[Zarathud]

I have problem with propaganda like that which tried to paint Palestinians as human animals.

No one on OO is doing that — certainly not to the extent you are posting propaganda, VR. If you’re projecting that onto people here on OO, that’s a you problem.

It’s pretty clear you’ve become a Hamas puppet posting “against the Israeli government” — which makes you a tool. That’s why you’ve lost so much credibility.

And you don’t admit anything. You double down and do it worse. It’s a terrible style of argument and makes you look foolish.

And possibly even look anti-Semitic with how hostile you’ve been getting. I don’t see anyone here supporting Netanyahu here.

So why do you persist? Maybe because you’ve ignored everything inconvenient — especially the victims of a Hamas terrorist attack by the de facto government of Gaza. They have a story, too. And many can’t tell it because they’re dead or held hostage.

Releasing the surviving hostages to tell their story might actually make Palestinians look more human, achieve peace, and possibly even corroborate your opinions of good treatment — if they’re true, VR.

[Pyperkub]

Bibi making Hamas great again. smh

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/25/middleea ... %3A50%3A27

[Unagi]

Let’s not forget: Hamas was elected by the civilian population of Gaza to represent them as their government when Israel unilaterally pulled out of the Gaza Strip.

This statement is much too simplified and seems to describe a situation that fails to describe the history of Hamas, the political context of the time, the nearly 20 years (a generation) that has passed since then, and what Israel has done to keep them propped up the whole time.

[hepcat]

So first of all, I'm truly sorry if VR feels that OO has become hostile towards him. That is not what I wanted. This particular forum is a passionate one for many though. And while I can be a smartass, I do try not to personally insult anyone. Unfortunately, being a smartass is enough to cause someone to be personally insulted at times. For that, I apologize.

One thing I want to expound on is why this forum can be a passionate one. VR is on a board primarily filled with Americans. We're left leaning by far (something we get chastised for by some who feel slighted when someone disagrees with their right leaning beliefs...which I also take issue with since I don't think we should be asked to fill out a questionnaire before joining OO and then allowed to join based on a quota of right and left leaning members), but we're also from a country that had a profoundly personal experience in WW2 with fighting to free Jewish prisoners from death camps. Our grandparents and great grandparents were privy to scenes of horrific genocide against the Jewish people. We became their greatest supporters after the war I think primarily because of that experience.

Of course we're sympathetic to Israel and to Jews. Yes, we're their friends. And yes, we hesitate to condemn them as a people just because we have such a personal connection to the suffering they went through a generation ago. That doesn't mean we want Palestinians to be wiped off the earth. But I also don't think that a majority of Israelis want that either. What they do want is to be safe and to have a home that they can protect after almost being expunged entirely. They live in an area with nations on all sides that have literally called for their deaths. Antisemitism is a massive problem in that region. I can't imagine what that might be like. And I think some bad acting politicians (Bibi and his coalition) are using that for their own ends. And I also believe they'll pay the price for that at some point. It doesn't help that VR then accuses America of being "controlled" by Israel. I know that has resulted in my kicking back a few times.

Both sides in the past have screwed up negotiations. There are no true angels in this struggle. But I sincerely hope that cooler heads prevail some day and they both look past their grievances against each other and are able to form a lasting peace. There are numerous examples of just that very thing happening in the history of the world, so I don't believe it's a pipe dream. Hell, Germany is now one of the biggest supporters of Israel. Less than a hundred years ago, they were trying to wipe them out.

As for other things:

I will not "apologize" for posting that video earlier. For multiple reasons.

1) I'm not entirely convinced that the translations being provided by various media outlets is actually accurate considering that even VR has admitted that the words used can have different connotations.

2) It still depicts a group of bloodied women being terrorized by a group of armed men.

3) I didn't create the video. If it is a hoax, I would be a victim of said hoax.

[Blackhawk]

It's reasonable for us to expect that posters double-check the news/video content they post to make sure that it comes from a reasonable source. Refusing to do so repeatedly is, yes, likely to get you called out. In this day of misleading news, clickbait headlines designed to manipulate people into following links, and straight up lies in the media, it's not just reasonable, it's necessary.

It's not reasonable to expect someone to re-translate a video to check for accuracy and interpret linguistic nuance.

[Kurth]

Let’s not forget: Hamas was elected by the civilian population of Gaza to represent them as their government when Israel unilaterally pulled out of the Gaza Strip.

This statement is much too simplified and seems to describe a situation that fails to describe the history of Hamas, the political context of the time, the nearly 20 years (a generation) that has passed since then, and what Israel has done to keep them propped up the whole time.

I agree. And we’ve covered those issues plenty upthread. But this is just in response to the notion that Israel sees any Palestinian as a potential Hamas member. The point I’m trying to make is, that’s not a crazy notion given the (1) popular support Hamas has within Gaza; and (2) the violent and repressive means Hamas employs against Palestinians in Gaza who are not giving it that popular support.

[GreenGoo]

I don't think you do.

Then explain.

No thank you.

[Dogstar]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pales ... 7060eccbca

Israel hits camp for displaced Palestinians, killing 35. IDF claims it was a targeted strike against Hamas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Victoria Raverna]

There are videos of the aftermath of the strike with dead children including one headless one. I'm not going to post that here since it is too graphic. Israel designated this camp as a safe place just four days ago. Even if there were two Hamas terrorists in the camp, there are other way to do it instead of striking it and killed 35 including women and very young children to take out 2 Hamas terrorists.

[Zarathud]

Hamas shot rockets out of the camp, knowing the IDF would retaliate the “safe place.” Netanyahu is stupid and angry enough to retaliate because living in fear of rocket attacks creates psychological damage for thousands.

War is ugly and graphic and terrible. If you choose to seek out those images of the dead to feed your anger and sadness, that’s your choice.

[Unagi]

Hamas shot rockets out of the camp, knowing the IDF would retaliate the “safe place.” Netanyahu is stupid and angry enough to retaliate because living in fear of rocket attacks creates psychological damage for thousands.

That's no excuse nor reasoning I can accept in reply to this strike though. It sounds like an excuse or reasoning.


Let's just assume that Israel will strike back at anywhere because they will and do, and when they tell anyone anything about a safe place; that, in itself, is the start of their transgression. Is Hamas in the Hospital? Well - of course they are. Is IDF in a hospital - yes, yes they are.

The idea that 'war is hell' does not wash away the sheer number of incidents piling up that highlight their absolute disregard for children and other completely innocent people.

[hepcat]

I hate it to, and I'm not excusing it. But Hamas is also to blame for this stuff since they hide amongst civilians...often places with children....to hopefully prevent retaliation. If they do retaliate, then they can scream "my god, they're murdering children!" to the world. Israel shouldn't take the bait, but I'm at a loss for how they can possibly fight this war against Hamas in light of Hamas' complete and utter disregard for their own people's lives. They'll sacrifice every man, woman and child in that region in order to rid the world of their enemies. Oh, and to keep their leaders well fed and living comfortable lives elsewhere.

[Zarathud]

The U.S. didn’t act after shootings in our own “safe spaces” of schools. Why would Gaza be different?

Bombings result in casualties - wiki. World War 2 killed thousands in bombings, and NATO killed as many in Yugoslavia. Gaza is still a historical blip, which is why the ICC prosecution is premature.

It’s not the best or most moral answer, but it’s the truth.

[Unagi]

No. If they hide there, or at a hospital let's say - it should be effective. Someone shouldn't say "I don't care where you hide, I will level the place".

It's that simple.


YES- Hamas is horrible. They are a 'non starter' to any argument of peace, etc. They are absolutely horrible. Full stop.

I don't saddle every and/or just any Palestinian with the crimes of Hamas.

[hepcat]

No. If they hide there, or at a hospital let's say - it should be effective. Someone shouldn't say "I don't care where you hide, I will level the place".

I imagine it's a lot like how most countries deal with hostage situations: they try not to give into demands as it just emboldens kidnappers. If Hamas sees that putting a child in front of them as a human shield works, they'll just keep doing it over and over again. I'm not saying that retaliating against Hamas when children's lives are at stake is right. I'm just saying it's a messy quagmire that I don't see ending well for anyone. They have Hamas attacking Israeli civilians and firing rockets non stop for years into Israel, then running to hide behind non combatants when Israel retaliates. If Israel retaliates, or isolates Gaza to lessen its chances of being attacked, they're playing right into Hamas' hands and the blow back from the international community is swift. Heck, I've even read stories of Hamas rushing civilians into areas where they know Israel is going to strike in order to "reap the benefits".

Again, none of this is justification for the death of even a single innocent life. That should always be seen as tragic and horrible. I'm just trying to convey how difficult it must be in this kind of situation to avoid the loss of innocent lives when the enemy has no problem with sacrificing their own people, and in fact sees benefits when they do.

[Kurth]

Hamas shot rockets out of the camp, knowing the IDF would retaliate the “safe place.” Netanyahu is stupid and angry enough to retaliate because living in fear of rocket attacks creates psychological damage for thousands.

That's no excuse nor reasoning I can accept in reply to this strike though. It sounds like an excuse or reasoning.


Let's just assume that Israel will strike back at anywhere because they will and do, and when they tell anyone anything about a safe place; that, in itself, is the start of their transgression. Is Hamas in the Hospital? Well - of course they are. Is IDF in a hospital - yes, yes they are.

The idea that 'war is hell' does not wash away the sheer number of incidents piling up that highlight their absolute disregard for children and other completely innocent people.

This isn’t what happened, apparently. This was not a case of the IDF leveling a place because Hamas shot a couple rockets out of it. This was a precision strike to take out 2 top Hamas leaders. It was designed to take them out, not the camp, but unexpected secondary explosions appeared to have caused a massive fire that ripped through the camp.

An Israeli official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive matter, said on Monday that an initial investigation by the military had concluded that the strike, or shrapnel from it, may have unexpectedly ignited a flammable substance at the site. Eyewitnesses described intense fires in the aftermath of the strike.

The Israeli military said in a statement on Monday that it had taken a number of steps before the strike to reduce the risk of harming uninvolved civilians, including conducting aerial surveillance and using precise munitions. “Based on these measures, it was assessed that there would be no expected harm to uninvolved civilians,” the military said.

Military drone footage of the attack, reviewed by The New York Times, showed the munition striking an area housing several large cabinlike structures and parked cars.

Two Israeli officials said that the strike took place outside the designated humanitarian zone that was supposed to offer safe refuge to residents being told to evacuate to get out of harm’s way. The military produced a map showing what it said was the location of the strike in relation to the designated humanitarian area.

The military named the two targets of the strike as Yassin Rabia, the commander of Hamas’s leadership in the occupied West Bank, and Khaled Nagar, a senior official in the same wing of the group. The military said the West Bank wing was responsible for planning, funding and carrying out terrorist attacks throughout the West Bank and within Israel.

So, this was a planned strike, outside the designated humanitarian “safe” zone, and care was taken in advance to avoid civilian casualties. It sounds like this is truly one of those instances where a justified military strike resulted in accidental and unexpected civilian deaths.

[Kurth]

No. If they hide there, or at a hospital let's say - it should be effective. Someone shouldn't say "I don't care where you hide, I will level the place".

I imagine it's a lot like how most countries deal with hostage situations: they try not to give into demands as it just emboldens kidnappers. If Hamas sees that putting a child in front of them as a human shield works, they'll just keep doing it over and over again. I'm not saying that retaliating against Hamas when children's lives are at stake is right. I'm just saying it's a messy quagmire that I don't see ending well for anyone. They have Hamas attacking Israeli civilians and firing rockets non stop for years into Israel, then running to hide behind non combatants when Israel retaliates. If Israel retaliates, or isolates Gaza to lessen its chances of being attacked, they're playing right into Hamas' hands and the blow back from the international community is swift. Heck, I've even read stories of Hamas rushing civilians into areas where they know Israel is going to strike in order to "reap the benefits".

Again, none of this is justification for the death of even a single innocent life. That should always be seen as tragic and horrible. I'm just trying to convey how difficult it must be in this kind of situation to avoid the loss of innocent lives when the enemy has no problem with sacrificing their own people, and in fact sees benefits when they do.

I think this is also very much true of the situation with the hostages. Israel has long engaged with hostage for prisoner swaps with terrorists on the theory that they will never abandon any of their citizens or soldiers. They traded 1K Palestinian prisoners — including the mastermind of the October 7 attacks (Yahya Sinwar) - back to Hamas in exchange for one Israeli solider, Gilad Shalit.

Now, they’ve done the same thing, albeit to a lesser extent, in response to the October 7 hostages.

We all know the lessons Hamas learns from this: Taking hostages is a good strategy. In fact, that’s exactly what Yahya Sinwar told all of Hamas publicly immediately upon his release.

These people will never stop.

[dbt1949]

I've always believed that the war will continue until one side doesn't exist. Too much hatred on both sides.

[Alefroth]

War is ugly and graphic and terrible.

This is getting really old.

[Alefroth]

Are these civilian activists declaring themselves as combatants?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... mnWw%3D%3D

Far-right Israeli settlers step up attacks on aid trucks bound for Gaza
The settler groups use a web of publicly accessible WhatsApp groups to track the trucks and coordinate attacks, providing a window into their activities.

[GreenGoo]

Are these civilian activists declaring themselves as combatants?

I mean, yes, but how does that change anything? Do dumb fire rockets have advanced IFF capabilities?

However, that said, I would think this would negatively influence Israel's relationship(s) with the aid providers. I mean more so, I guess.

[Alefroth]

Are these civilian activists declaring themselves as combatants?

I mean, yes, but how does that change anything? Do dumb fire rockets have advanced IFF capabilities?

However, that said, I would think this would negatively influence Israel's relationship(s) with the aid providers. I mean more so, I guess.

I guess what it changes is that if they are living among non-combatants, they are now putting those non-combatants in danger.

[GreenGoo]

I guess what it changes is that if they are living among non-combatants, they are now putting those non-combatants in danger.

Maybe I wasn't clear.

Hamas *already* doesn't distinguish between the two. That's how we got here, remember? What is this *new* danger you speak of?

[Blackhawk]

I hate it to, and I'm not excusing it. But Hamas is also to blame for this stuff since they hide amongst civilians...often places with children....to hopefully prevent retaliation. If they do retaliate, then they can scream "my god, they're murdering children!" to the world. Israel shouldn't take the bait, but I'm at a loss for how they can possibly fight this war against Hamas in light of Hamas' complete and utter disregard for their own people's lives. They'll sacrifice every man, woman and child in that region in order to rid the world of their enemies. Oh, and to keep their leaders well fed and living comfortable lives elsewhere.

I've made the comparison before - this is their Vietnam. It's not a 'winnable' war. The only way they could truly get Hamas out of Gaza would be wipe Gaza clean, and they know it.

Bombings result in casualties - wiki. World War 2 killed thousands in bombings, and NATO killed as many in Yugoslavia.

To be fair, numbers from the days before precision guided munitions don't really apply here.

[Kurth]

I've made the comparison before - this is their Vietnam. It's not a 'winnable' war. The only way they could truly get Hamas out of Gaza would be wipe Gaza clean, and they know it.

I think that’s a bad comparison and bad analysis on a number of levels.

(1) The Vietnamese were engaged in a civil war. U.S. intervention was entirely driven by Cold War policy analysis. While the Vietnamese were fighting for their home, the U.S. armed forces were largely there without any idea of what they were fighting for, beyond maybe some stupid “domino theory” crap emanating from Washington. Contrast that to what is going on in Gaza right now. With October 7 still fresh on their minds and with Hamas still holding hostages - live and dead - in Gaza, I don’t think Israel or the IDF has any difficulty knowing why they are currently fighting.

(2) The Vietnamese were constantly resupplied with effective, modern weapons and munitions by the Soviet Union and the PRC. Hamas is isolated. With the exception of any weapons Hamas has been able to smuggle in with aid shipments, they have no means of resupply. This is especially so now that the border with Egypt has been effectively closed.

(3) I keep seeing it said here that Israel cannot defeat Hamas, but I don’t think that’s at all based in reality unless you are defining Hamas extremely broadly. When Israel talks about defeating Hamas, they mean effectively destroying Hamas’s leadership and ending its capacity to administratively lead the Gaza Strip. That is being done at this very moment. Hamas’s leadership will not survive this war, and, for those living outside of Gaza right now in Qatar and other locales, history teaches us the extent of Israel’s resolve to track down and bring people like that to justice.

This is a winnable war, and Israel is going to win it. There’s undoubtedly a severe cost to that, but there’s a cost to failing to end Hamas leadership, too.

[Victoria Raverna]

Back when there was news about IDF using AI to select targets. There was report on how IDF waited for Hamas members to return to their homes and then bombed them there. In cases like that, are they still counted as hamas using human shields? Or the IDF make sure the hamas members are killed with their families and neighbors?

[Blackhawk]

I've made the comparison before - this is their Vietnam. It's not a 'winnable' war. The only way they could truly get Hamas out of Gaza would be wipe Gaza clean, and they know it.

I think that’s a bad comparison and bad analysis on a number of levels.

(1) The Vietnamese were engaged in a civil war. U.S. intervention was entirely driven by Cold War policy analysis. While the Vietnamese were fighting for their home, the U.S. armed forces were largely there without any idea of what they were fighting for, beyond maybe some stupid “domino theory” crap emanating from Washington. Contrast that to what is going on in Gaza right now. With October 7 still fresh on their minds and with Hamas still holding hostages - live and dead - in Gaza, I don’t think Israel or the IDF has any difficulty knowing why they are currently fighting.

(2) The Vietnamese were constantly resupplied with effective, modern weapons and munitions by the Soviet Union and the PRC. Hamas is isolated. With the exception of any weapons Hamas has been able to smuggle in with aid shipments, they have no means of resupply. This is especially so now that the border with Egypt has been effectively closed.

(3) I keep seeing it said here that Israel cannot defeat Hamas, but I don’t think that’s at all based in reality unless you are defining Hamas extremely broadly. When Israel talks about defeating Hamas, they mean effectively destroying Hamas’s leadership and ending its capacity to administratively lead the Gaza Strip. That is being done at this very moment. Hamas’s leadership will not survive this war, and, for those living outside of Gaza right now in Qatar and other locales, history teaches us the extent of Israel’s resolve to track down and bring people like that to justice.

This is a winnable war, and Israel is going to win it. There’s undoubtedly a severe cost to that, but there’s a cost to failing to end Hamas leadership, too.

You are taking the analogy much, much further than I intended it to be taken. And I still maintain that with Hamas leadership elsewhere, and Hamas' support coming from foreign entities, and the motivation for Hamas coming from the way the Palestinians have been treated, that they can't be Hamas. Best case? They knock down Hamas only to face Hamas 2.0 in a few years.

[hepcat]

Back when there was news about IDF using AI to select targets. There was report on how IDF waited for Hamas members to return to their homes and then bombed them there. In cases like that, are they still counted as hamas using human shields? Or the IDF make sure the hamas members are killed with their families and neighbors?

Almost everyone here has said Israel is doing the wrong thing at times. But what you posted does nothing to negate the simple fact that Hamas uses human shields, and has sought to put their fellow Palestinians in harms way to benefit their PR campaigns.

[Victoria Raverna]

Back when there was news about IDF using AI to select targets. There was report on how IDF waited for Hamas members to return to their homes and then bombed them there. In cases like that, are they still counted as hamas using human shields? Or the IDF make sure the hamas members are killed with their families and neighbors?

Almost everyone here has said Israel is doing the wrong thing at times. But what you posted does nothing to negate the simple fact that Hamas uses human shields, and has sought to put their fellow Palestinians in harms way to benefit their PR campaigns.

I know they're using human shields but it seems like Israel also not always trying to reduce civilian death. Or maybe they did something like that because they think if they killed the hamas terrorists, their kids or brothers are going to hate Israel and become future Hamas. So they killed them to prevent future terrorist attacks.

Also bombing over 60% of Gaza can't be just because of Hamas using human shields.

[hepcat]

Sounds like we agree about Hamas. They use their own people as shields and as tools for their propaganda.

[Victoria Raverna]

Sounds like we agree about Hamas. They use their own people as shields and as tools for their propaganda.

Yes. And current Israel government and IDF seem to fall into the trap and help make the world to be against them by how they fought the war at Gaza.

[Kurth]

I've made the comparison before - this is their Vietnam. It's not a 'winnable' war. The only way they could truly get Hamas out of Gaza would be wipe Gaza clean, and they know it.

I think that’s a bad comparison and bad analysis on a number of levels.

(1) The Vietnamese were engaged in a civil war. U.S. intervention was entirely driven by Cold War policy analysis. While the Vietnamese were fighting for their home, the U.S. armed forces were largely there without any idea of what they were fighting for, beyond maybe some stupid “domino theory” crap emanating from Washington. Contrast that to what is going on in Gaza right now. With October 7 still fresh on their minds and with Hamas still holding hostages - live and dead - in Gaza, I don’t think Israel or the IDF has any difficulty knowing why they are currently fighting.

(2) The Vietnamese were constantly resupplied with effective, modern weapons and munitions by the Soviet Union and the PRC. Hamas is isolated. With the exception of any weapons Hamas has been able to smuggle in with aid shipments, they have no means of resupply. This is especially so now that the border with Egypt has been effectively closed.

(3) I keep seeing it said here that Israel cannot defeat Hamas, but I don’t think that’s at all based in reality unless you are defining Hamas extremely broadly. When Israel talks about defeating Hamas, they mean effectively destroying Hamas’s leadership and ending its capacity to administratively lead the Gaza Strip. That is being done at this very moment. Hamas’s leadership will not survive this war, and, for those living outside of Gaza right now in Qatar and other locales, history teaches us the extent of Israel’s resolve to track down and bring people like that to justice.

This is a winnable war, and Israel is going to win it. There’s undoubtedly a severe cost to that, but there’s a cost to failing to end Hamas leadership, too.

You are taking the analogy much, much further than I intended it to be taken. And I still maintain that with Hamas leadership elsewhere, and Hamas' support coming from foreign entities, and the motivation for Hamas coming from the way the Palestinians have been treated, that they can't be Hamas. Best case? They knock down Hamas only to face Hamas 2.0 in a few years.

Then I honestly don’t understand what you’re getting at. Israel is, in fact, taking out Hamas leadership in Gaza. While many of the Hamas higher-ups are living their best lives hosted by other Arab nations, the real tactical and strategic and administrative leadership of Hamas is very much located in Gaza. And they are being exterminated. So, yes, Israel will “knock down” Hamas in Gaza, and Gaza will never again be ruled by Hamas - or any other Islamist-terrorist regime.

Israel miscalculated in a big way when it unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. Those behind the withdraw - and most of the world - assumed that Fatah and the PA would take over administrative control of the territory. When Hamas won the election and then waged war on Fatah essentially eliminating them within Gaza, all of Israel’s plans got turned upside down.

Instead of propelling talks toward a sustainable peace, the rise of Hamas in Gaza propelled the right wing in Israel into power. And what did that coalition of religious zealots and Islamophobic bigots want? Not a 2-state solution. Instead they tried to play Hamas, supporting them against Fatah because they thought that further delegitimized the idea of there ever being a Palestinian state. Obviously, aside from being unethical, that was a huge strategic mistake, as Hamas, largely free to do what it wanted in Gaza, fortified and tunneled and planned and eventually attacked on October 7.

So, when you say that Israel may “knock Hamas down” I agree. They absolutely will knock Hamas down. But when you suggest that Israel will then be facing Hamas 2.0, I think that’s wildly misguided. Israel will not make the same mistake it did when it unilaterally left Gaza. It will not again let a force like Hamas rise to power in Gaza. Not going to happen.

[Unagi]

So, yes, Israel will “knock down” Hamas in Gaza, and Gaza will never again be ruled by Hamas - or any other Islamist-terrorist regime.

Wow.
Really?

Is this a crystal ball thing, or do you come from the future?

When the Rafah attacks killed 2 or 3 "high-level Hamas targets", how many 5-15 year-old boys survived that, saw their siblings and mothers die - and refuse to join Hamas 2.0 ?

[Isgrimnur]