A Feast for Crows Discussion (Spoilerific!)

[MHS]

OK. Now that I'm done, everyone may commence deep discussions.

[spoiler] Do you think Brienne agreed to betray Jaime to save Pod (and herself?) Is that what she called out?

Is Arya really blind or is that some trick of a potion that will go away?

He's going to piss me off if he kills or mutilates *everyone* I liked![/spoiler]

[Turtle]

Do we really need the spoiler tags? Can't we just say don't read this thread unless you finished it?

[spoiler]
I think Brienne will make it out alive. She'll probably mention something about Arya being alive, or knowing where Sansa is, etc... Then again, knowing Martin, then yes, she'll agree to kill Jaime, if only to buy time to find some other way to convince her.

It's probably a temporary effect for Arya, or if not, like Bran she'll find some other special way of seeing.

I found the section about Cersei really painful to read. I was just starting to understand her, then I read her slowly spiraling to her own doom. I think Cersei will be next to die in the next book that continues the story.

Jaime is now a much more likeable character with his sections. I was actually surprised he ditched Cersei.
[/spoiler]

[koanicriddle]

Just finished AFfC no more than half an hour ago... I can't believe how often Martin had me exclaiming "holy crap!" in the last 100 pages or so (the "holy crap" moments really began to ramp up after Martin revealed what happened to Myrcella).

Anyway, on to MHS's questions...

[spoiler]The Brienne scene has me stumped. I find it hard to believe that she'd betray Jaime, but she did swear her service to Catelyn first, and now that she's come face-to-face with undead-Cat, Brienne may have decided that her vows to Cat take precedence over those taken to Jaime (with a bit of prodding from the hemp around her neck). Most everyone believes that Arya is dead (including Cat), but Brienne knows that Arya was with Sandor before he died. So my suspicion is that Brienne screams Arya's name, in the hopes that they'll cut her down so she can be questioned. Odds are good that I'm wrong, but it's the first thing that came to my mind when I read that scene.

As for Arya's blindness, I'm certain that that's a part of her training (or possibly a form of punishment for her murder of Dareon). Either way, I'm sure it's a temporary state.

A few of the things I'm wondering about:

Who was Margaery having sex with? Pycelle admits to frequesntly making her Moon Tea, and the septa's have confirmed that she isn't a virgin... but I can't think of any likely suspects (the only person who had a lot of solitary access to her would have been Loras... but I seriously doubt that he's the one).

Is the man who kills Pate at the end of the prologue (and who appears at the end of the book in the guise of Pate) Jaqen H'ghar?

Is Davos really dead, or was the report of his death a ruse?[/spoiler]

Damn my slow typing fingers! Anyway, good to see that Turtle agrees with what I said about Brienne and Arya

[MHS]

[spoiler] It's thrilling me to watch Cersei's fall. It's equally nice to watch Jamie being redeemed, as well, although we'll see how far that goes.

I think Davos is probably really dead. I wondered if it was a ruse too, since it seemed odd to just have his death be an offhand thing, but when you think about how many really major characters have died, one onion knight more or less doesn't seem that big a deal.

I hope it doesn't turn out that Maergery was boffing Loras... the incest thing is so last book. Maybe she broke her hyman horseback riding and the moon tea is just to regulate her periods and control her hormones. (That's a joke... it's what all the easy girls who went on birth control early used to say.) I can't think of anyone interesting that she could have been doing it with, though.

And I'm thoroughly confused with the Pate/Sphinx thing. Someone smarter than I will have to puzzle that one out. [/spoiler]

[Mr. Sparkle]

[spoiler]I don't think Davos is dead. Ruse would be my guess... only to be killed later after we go "Whew!" That's what happened to me with Eddard Stark anyway... I thought he was dead when Littlefinger put his dagger to his throat and then it was "oh great, he's a hostage, so he should be... oh fuck!"

Maybe I'm the only one, but I was really surprised to find that the Prince of Dorne had promised his daughter to Viserys... and that once he died, he was sending his son to wed Dany... the Prince is a more formidable character than I had first expected, and has apparently been planning this for quite some time... I expect great things from Dorne... until the Prince dies, of course.

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out with Victarion and the Iron Fleet also on the same mission. Ships would seem to be more valuable to Dany then Dorne... but we shall see. Maybe she will marry both of them? Three headed dragon and all...

Cersei may actually still be in OK shape... it depends on the Lady Merryweather, who was apparently wasn't questioned... unless she was a secret agent?

A burned/scarred Loras will recover to defend Maergery... House Tyrell in charge of the throne will make the Dorne angle more potent.[/spoiler]

[Jag]

I'm in the middle of it right now, so i can't participate. I'm going to hold my place since i'll probably finish soon

[Mr. Fed]

Fun, fun.

[spoiler] I'm betting it's Jaime, not Tyrion, who is the little brother foretold to strangle Cersei. I really liked how Martin made you wait for that phophecy until the end of the book, while dropping hints throughout. And he never told the whole story about Cersei's friend drowning -- was she helped?

I don't think Davos is dead. I have literary reasons -- it's too offhand a way to kill him for Martin -- and spoilerific reasons -- doesn't Martin say in the afterward that he'll be in the next book?

I love the weaving of Dunk and Egg into the story. I hope we find out more about what happened at Summerhall.

As for Loras -- so he was wounded and hideously burned? I wonder if he is recognizable? If not -- is that really Loras?

Who is the little queen humping? Not sure about that one.....[/spoiler]

[Mr. Sparkle]

Fun, fun.

[spoiler] I don't think Davos is dead. I have literary reasons -- it's too offhand a way to kill him for Martin -- and spoilerific reasons -- doesn't Martin say in the afterward that he'll be in the next book?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Yes but, I'm sure the next book will backtrack quite a bit... we could easily get the whole lead up to Davos dying.

One of the things I'm wondering is whether the plot will progress much for the characters we met in this one until book 6.[/spoiler]

[Mr. Sparkle]

Thoughts on the Dragons:


[spoiler]Ok, three dragons need three riders...

Drogon - Black
Rhaegal - Green
Viserion - Cream and Gold

I'm going to assume Viserion is for Dany... and then base the rest of my rampant speculation on their colors and plot twists that would make things intersting.

It seems to me, that Drogon is the natural steed of an Ironborn (Victarion or Euron)... since he/it has already shown some propensity for reaving as in the teaser chapter. I was thinking the guy from Dorne for one... but green fits House Tyrell the best... maybe Loras? Maybe The Darkstar will kill Quentyn and join with Danerys... he's an intriuging dude... taking Drogon instead of an Ironborn.

The Knight of (Burnt) Flowers and The Darkstar working together? To put Danerys on the Iron Throne? Hmmm...[/spoiler]

[Bruce]

Finished it last night.

[spoiler] Cersei will not escape. Every single seed of her undoing she sowed herself.

I am pondering which side Arya will end up on. If she is a servant of the God of Many faces (ie. Death) does that mean that she is with the not-Rh'llor faction or The Others? That wolf of hers keeps making appearances and will potentially be her eyes when she returns.

Has Qyborn really made some sort of zombie killing machine from the corpse of The Mountain?

For me the best page of the book was his description of the "broken men". There was a lot about the consequences of this disastrous Game of Thrones on the smallfolk and the realm in general.

I didn't get Brienne's story. She meets up with some old foes and sees the end of them only to be cut short.

The same with the Dorne story. Lots of pages to reveal they have been/are courting the last of the Targaryens as are the Ironborn.
[/spoiler]

I'm not 100% convinced this story *needed* to be written to fill the gap. I reckon I could summarize it in chapter if I had to.

[Asharak]

Finished it a day or two ago...thoughts of mine pertaining to what's already been mentioned in this thread:

[spoiler]1. I'm on board with Brienne screaming "Arya" to avoid dying. She doesn't know much, but it's probably enough to keep her alive. Then again, the fact that several of us came up with that answer on our own probably means it's too obvious.

2. One pet theory of mine that hasn't been mentioned here: the younger and more beautiful queen that will displace Cersei will be Dany, not Margaery. Cersei's a blind, arrogant, overly-maternal, and self-destructive whore, but I'll be very surprised if she goes down this soon. If nothing else, she has too many toadies and family connections - even without Jaime, such as Kevan Lannister - to let the Church finish her off.

3. I don't think Arya is permanently blind. Then again, that could be wishful thinking, because along with Jon, Arya's been my favourite character since Book One.[/spoiler]

- Ash

[craterus]

Finished it last night.

[spoiler] Cersei will not escape. Every single seed of her undoing she sowed herself.

I am pondering which side Arya will end up on. If she is a servant of the God of Many faces (ie. Death) does that mean that she is with the not-Rh'llor faction or The Others? That wolf of hers keeps making appearances and will potentially be her eyes when she returns.

*** most people on the book boards think the blindness is temporary and part of her training or temporary and punishment for killing without permission on behalf of her former allegiances.

Has Qyborn really made some sort of zombie killing machine from the corpse of The Mountain?

*** it seems to split about 50/50 on whether The Mountain is some kind of undead or whether he is Gregorstein... The showdown between The Dog and The Mountain will be legendary... or perhaps GRRM is a Pastaferian.

For me the best page of the book was his description of the "broken men". There was a lot about the consequences of this disastrous Game of Thrones on the smallfolk and the realm in general.

I didn't get Brienne's story. She meets up with some old foes and sees the end of them only to be cut short.

The same with the Dorne story. Lots of pages to reveal they have been/are courting the last of the Targaryens as are the Ironborn.
[/spoiler]

I'm not 100% convinced this story *needed* to be written to fill the gap. I reckon I could summarize it in chapter if I had to.

That was my review weeks ago - I think GRRM had a major writers block... (even if he doesn't admit it). Hopefully he has past it and can get his literary groove on.

ps- I put some responses in the spoiler - noted by ***

[Turtle]

George R. R. Martin made an appearance at Gencon and I got a book signed by him. In the Q&A he let known some little, but juicy tidbits about Dance With Dragons.

[spoiler]
Arya will also be in Dance With Dragons, and not just as a small mention. He says he wants to conclude Arya's story before advancing things even farther.
[/spoiler]

It also turns out that he's actually a gamer, albiet he's not much of a video gamer, he plays pen and paper RPGs and boardgames. He said he was certainly interested in a Game of Thrones PC or console game, but he has strict requirements about the quality and style of the game. So, no turning AGOT into an FPS a la Wheel of Time.

[Poleaxe]

[spoiler] My thought was that the moon tea was for margery's cousins[/spoiler]


I read this book back to back with Knife Dreams. Jordan's book was far superior (and I have been critical in the past). AFFC was disappointing- I felt like I was reading fantasy Dynasty.

[fancydirt]

My post will have spoilers and I'm not going out of my way to hide them in a thread called "A Feast for Crows Discussion (Spoilerific!)" If you've read this far and haven't finished the book and don't want anything spoiled you deserve to have things ruined for you.

To address some things in this thread already...

The whole deal with Cersei, Margaery and the moon tea and all that. It was all a massive setup to get Cersei busted. Pycelle didn't come forth and admit to cersei about the moontea until after Cersei confided in her good friend (who wouldn't bring her child to court) about needing a way to get rid of the young queen. Taena, Pycelle, margaery... they were all in on it. Probably the greater work of the queen of thorns, but who's to say at this point. Cersei is going down and Jaime has come to his senses, though Cersei really fucked up in bringing holy crusaders back into it. Those guys are going to cause all kinds of trouble.

One thing that really jumped out at me was the last Sam chapter. First off, the Citadel, who live to serve, are clearly more than that if it was them who got rid of the last dragons because the realm they were building had no room for magics and the like. So now the Citadel and the maester's have a greater agenda as well. Second, Pate died in the prologue, who introduced himself as Pate to Sam at the end?

Brienne is awesome and Catelyn is still pissing me off even while dead. Thoros seemed to indicate that Beric is no more, possibly as a result of giving Cat the kiss of life. As to what Brienne yelled as she was about to die that might save her, Arya seems as good a word as anything. I'm just upset that he'd leave us with such a cliffhanger.

Robert's Bastards. Sadly, I haven't read the second Egg and Dunk story in the other Legends book. However, we know now from Aemon's mumbling that Robert/Renly/Stannis's mother was Egg's daughter. Considering his bastards still have great relevance to the narative, I'm guessing it has more to do than just them having a King's blood in their veins as melisandre wanted to burn them. Unless she gets a dragon and everyone wants to sacrifice one of Robert's bastards to get dragons, which would just be dumb.

Arya. I had a feeling that the Arya chapters that were included in this book were only there to play along with Sam's visit to Braavos and that we'd see more in Dance. Anyway, learning more about the faceless men and the way they become completely different people supports my belief that Syrio Forel and Jaqen H'Ghar are the same person, not that it has much relevence at this point. Sucks to get cut off with her waking up blind, but if it means we get more Arya in Dance as well then I'm all for it.

The Wall. Something awful is going to be going down at the wall. It's getting fortified and they know how to deal with the others... but I have a feeling that The Others are going to be pawns compared to what's going to attack the wall. The wall has magics in it that keep the others from passing, as seen with Coldhands not being able to cross and also in Jon not having wolf dreams or being able to sense Ghost when they were on opposite sides of the wall (Yet Arya was still "connected" to Nymeria while she was across the world in Braavos).

I hate the ironmen and want them all to die. Interesting how the horn that can allow someone to control a dragon kills the person who uses it. Maybe only certain people can use the horn to control the dragons. Maybe it'll help Dany keep her babies from eating kids. Who knows.

I really liked what's going on in the Erie as well. I was starting to lose faith in Littlefinger's scheming and plotting, but he totally made up for it at the end of that last (really long) Sansa chapter. Can't wait to see where they progress from there.

THE MOUNTAIN THAT RIDES. Holy shit, what they hell has Qyburn created with his dying body and who's going to have to face it in battle? I *need* more details on what was going on in that dungeon and can't wait until all is revealed in a future book. I'm of a mind that Sandor is *not* dead and will still get to be the one who kills his brother. The guy on the island was too brisk about claiming that the hound is dead and should be allowed to rest in peace. The guy himself spoke of how he died in combat and woke on that island and now serves there, I think our good buddy the hound lives and is on the island now as well. I just can't let him go like that.

Where's the blackfish going to or is he still in Riverrun? Could be heading to the Vale or just hiding out somewhere, I don't think he has many other options. Speaking of Riverrun, will they ever fix the typo on the map in the front/back of the books? Riverrrun. Grrr

Dorne. Uneventful (well, things happened, just in the end most of what happened didn't amount to much) for most of the book except for showing how bloodthirsty most of them are for revenge, and then finally learning that the prince wasn't just resting on his laurels. Can't wait to see them bust into action when Dany comes to Westeros.

So much was going on with the whole book, hard to keep it all in mind. Can't wait for Dance and especially can't wait for the next chronological book to get released.

[Jag]

Finished it last night, took me a bit longer than I thought it would. Great book, I really hope he doesn't leave all the cliffhangers hanging, like Brienne. (I mean, literally hanging)

I do think Loras story was faked and the Tyrells have been plotting Cercei's downfall as much as she had theirs. I also think the moon tea thing was fake as well. I would also like to meet Willas already, he seems like he could be an interesting character.

I thought the brief presence of Tom of the Seven Strings was done nicely and foretold interesting things for Riverrun. ie: the Blackfish meets up with Cate.

I was annoyed how the Stark girls both had the ability to change identity so easily, such as Sansa calling Littlefinger, father in her own head.

[fancydirt]

I do think Loras story was faked and the Tyrells have been plotting Cercei's downfall as much as she had theirs. I also think the moon tea thing was fake as well. I would also like to meet Willas already, he seems like he could be an interesting character.

I thought the brief presence of Tom of the Seven Strings was done nicely and foretold interesting things for Riverrun. ie: the Blackfish meets up with Cate.

I was annoyed how the Stark girls both had the ability to change identity so easily, such as Sansa calling Littlefinger, father in her own head.

Oh yeah, that reminds me... near end the end of the book, we did hear from someone outside of King's Landing that Dragonstone has NOT fallen. Still, hard to keep so many people silent like that.

As to the Stark's hiding their identities, it clearly wasn't easy for Arya as she still can't give up "arya" even after pretending to be anything but herself for so long. Sansa doesn't have much choice in it and she's probably just trying to sell the new life to herself to keep from screwing up. I really hope she ends up betraying and screwing over littlefinger. That'd be nice.

As for Tom, I thought the only connection we had with him to anyone was Shae/Tyrion and Bronn. Shae is dead and Tyrion ordered Bronn to kill Tom, yet Tom still lives. If anything, it seems old Bronn might be up to something. He sure is doing a good job of securing his current position.

[Remus West]

THE MOUNTAIN THAT RIDES. Holy shit, what they hell has Qyburn created with his dying body and who's going to have to face it in battle? I *need* more details on what was going on in that dungeon and can't wait until all is revealed in a future book. I'm of a mind that Sandor is *not* dead and will still get to be the one who kills his brother. The guy on the island was too brisk about claiming that the hound is dead and should be allowed to rest in peace. The guy himself spoke of how he died in combat and woke on that island and now serves there, I think our good buddy the hound lives and is on the island now as well. I just can't let him go like that.

I got the impression that the guy digging the grave when they arrived was Sandor. Don't think there is much to support the idea, but that was the feeling I got.

[Jag]

THE MOUNTAIN THAT RIDES. Holy shit, what they hell has Qyburn created with his dying body and who's going to have to face it in battle? I *need* more details on what was going on in that dungeon and can't wait until all is revealed in a future book. I'm of a mind that Sandor is *not* dead and will still get to be the one who kills his brother. The guy on the island was too brisk about claiming that the hound is dead and should be allowed to rest in peace. The guy himself spoke of how he died in combat and woke on that island and now serves there, I think our good buddy the hound lives and is on the island now as well. I just can't let him go like that.

I got the impression that the guy digging the grave when they arrived was Sandor. Don't think there is much to support the idea, but that was the feeling I got.

I got the same impression. It must have been his description that did it.

As for Tom, I thought the only connection we had with him to anyone was Shae/Tyrion and Bronn. Shae is dead and Tyrion ordered Bronn to kill Tom, yet Tom still lives. If anything, it seems old Bronn might be up to something. He sure is doing a good job of securing his current posit

I thought Tom ran with Lem and the other guys that basically run Berric's outlaws? I do not think it means what you think it means. I think you may be thinking about another singer that Tryion told Bronn to kill.

[craterus]

My post will have spoilers and I'm not going out of my way to hide them in a thread called "A Feast for Crows Discussion (Spoilerific!)" If you've read this far and haven't finished the book and don't want anything spoiled you deserve to have things ruined for you.

To address some things in this thread already...

One thing that really jumped out at me was the last Sam chapter. First off, the Citadel, who live to serve, are clearly more than that if it was them who got rid of the last dragons because the realm they were building had no room for magics and the like. So now the Citadel and the maester's have a greater agenda as well. Second, Pate died in the prologue, who introduced himself as Pate to Sam at the end?

*** Jaqen H'Ghar


THE MOUNTAIN THAT RIDES. Holy shit, what they hell has Qyburn created with his dying body and who's going to have to face it in battle? I *need* more details on what was going on in that dungeon and can't wait until all is revealed in a future book. I'm of a mind that Sandor is *not* dead and will still get to be the one who kills his brother. The guy on the island was too brisk about claiming that the hound is dead and should be allowed to rest in peace. The guy himself spoke of how he died in combat and woke on that island and now serves there, I think our good buddy the hound lives and is on the island now as well. I just can't let him go like that.

*** Stranger, the Hounds horse is present... also many people on the boards think that the hound was actually referred to in the text - a brother doing the digging that limped (with a cover on his face? -doing this from memory). The hound and the mountain will still have their unholy/holy showdown.

my answers preceded by ***

[fancydirt]

As for Tom, I thought the only connection we had with him to anyone was Shae/Tyrion and Bronn. Shae is dead and Tyrion ordered Bronn to kill Tom, yet Tom still lives. If anything, it seems old Bronn might be up to something. He sure is doing a good job of securing his current posit

I thought Tom ran with Lem and the other guys that basically run Berric's outlaws? I do not think it means what you think it means. I think you may be thinking about another singer that Tryion told Bronn to kill.

Yeah, I get names mixed up now and then, I was thinking of the guy Tyrion had killed in Storm of Swords the whole time. D'oh! Opens up a whole new list of things that could happen now.

[Jag]

As for Tom, I thought the only connection we had with him to anyone was Shae/Tyrion and Bronn. Shae is dead and Tyrion ordered Bronn to kill Tom, yet Tom still lives. If anything, it seems old Bronn might be up to something. He sure is doing a good job of securing his current posit

I thought Tom ran with Lem and the other guys that basically run Berric's outlaws? I do not think it means what you think it means. I think you may be thinking about another singer that Tryion told Bronn to kill.

Yeah, I get names mixed up now and then, I was thinking of the guy Tyrion had killed in Storm of Swords the whole time. D'oh! Opens up a whole new list of things that could happen now.

Actually as i'm reading this, it just hit me that the most dangerous profession in all of Westeros is: a singer!

[fancydirt]

As for Tom, I thought the only connection we had with him to anyone was Shae/Tyrion and Bronn. Shae is dead and Tyrion ordered Bronn to kill Tom, yet Tom still lives. If anything, it seems old Bronn might be up to something. He sure is doing a good job of securing his current posit

I thought Tom ran with Lem and the other guys that basically run Berric's outlaws? I do not think it means what you think it means. I think you may be thinking about another singer that Tryion told Bronn to kill.

Yeah, I get names mixed up now and then, I was thinking of the guy Tyrion had killed in Storm of Swords the whole time. D'oh! Opens up a whole new list of things that could happen now.

Actually as i'm reading this, it just hit me that the most dangerous profession in all of Westeros is: a singer!

Innkeeper, with Hand of the King as a close second.

[Sepiche]

Just finished a bit ago.

*** HERE BE SPOILERS! ***

Great stuff. I can understand the calls that it was a tad boring, but personally I love all the plotting.

I was impressed with Littlefingers ability to thrive after he ran. There are many people involved in the game of thrones, but he is I think going to be one of the major players. He played the entire vale like a flute.

Another true player: the Queen of Thorns. What's been going on in King's Landing is largely due to Cersei's foolishness, but a lot of it reeks of an intelligent player behind the scenes.

As far as the knight of flowers goes... I think he was really burned... maybe not as bad as was let on, but it's just too poetic to have a once beautiful knight turned into a burnt husk with a grudge.

Reading here and looking back to the salt flats I think there might be some truth to the grave digger being Sandor. It didn't seem likely to me that he was dead, he's a lot like Davos I think... a survivor.

I was also very intrigued by Sam's last chapter. A lot of world changing information in there. The maester's aren't so self serving it seems. This leads me to an interesting theory. It seems from comments in the last chapter that the maesters prefered way of dealing with threats is poison... could Pycelle have been the one that killed Joffrey? I need to reread the book he dies in, but I seem to remember that it was just after Pycelle was held by the imp in the cells and had his beard cut. His injured honor combined with Joffrey's temper... maybe Oldtown thought he was too irratic to have on the throne? I would guess Pycelles loyalties are still truly with the old kings.

s

[Crabbs]

Just finished a bit ago.

I was also very intrigued by Sam's last chapter. A lot of world changing information in there. The maester's aren't so self serving it seems. This leads me to an interesting theory. It seems from comments in the last chapter that the maesters prefered way of dealing with threats is poison... could Pycelle have been the one that killed Joffrey? I need to reread the book he dies in, but I seem to remember that it was just after Pycelle was held by the imp in the cells and had his beard cut. His injured honor combined with Joffrey's temper... maybe Oldtown thought he was too irratic to have on the throne? I would guess Pycelles loyalties are still truly with the old kings.

I thought that the poison was supplied by the queen of thorns with Sansa's head covereing where the "jewels" of the netting were actually poison slipped into Joff's cup. Did Pycelle supply the poison jewels?

Just finished reading last night, really liked the book. Not quite as action packed as the previous ones, but no matter how Martin was going to divide this book, the divisions would always feel artificial compared to his last book. I'm looking forward to Part Deux of this installment.

Someone mentioned that maybe Dragonstone hadn't fallen because of a referrence in the later chapters by someone, this I think is tough to judge because the timeline is not sequential at all in this book. Like Martin said in his previews, some later chapters take place days,week, even months efore earlier chapters.... so we don't quite know.

[qp]

Finished it up yesterday. Overall I was a touch disappointed, but I am reserving judgment until I read part 2. I don't think it was an easy thing to break up the book.

Actually part two should be awesome - basically it's all my favourite character arcs, so now the boring stuff should be out of the way

I did like his depiction of Cersei, and how she's really just not up to the task of being Queen...I did enjoy seeing her flounder about, while thinking how clever she was.

[Ibby]

I finished this a week ago. My criticisms:

1) Lack of interest in the Ironborn and Greyjoy's succession/kingsmoot storylines. I really think it could have been cut down a few chapters to tighten up the book. I like pseudo-vikings as much as the next guy, but I have no interest in these thoroughly unlikeable characters and thought they took up way too many pages.

2) Brienne's Travelogue and Discourse with the Common Masses. I take it her wanderings were more to show us dear readers the plight of the common folk outside of the Lords and Ladies of Westeros, than to really get her on the track of finding Arya or Sansa. We get a lot of back history for her, which is fine, but as with the Ironborn, I think it could have been tightened up just a bit.

In fact, for most of her early journeys, I wasn't able to figure out exactly where she was on the map. I'm not asking for GPS coordinates, but when the towns and villages mentioned are too small to appear on the macro map...I cry out against my inner manly self and want to ask for directions.

Everytime I came across a new Cersei chapter, I'd hear Admiral Akbar's voice in my head; "It's a trap!!". Very fun to read, and quite interesting to try to 'see past' her viewpoint and get a sense of what's really going on in Kings Landing.

If Dance of Dragons can be released late 2006, I'll be ecstatic, and any shortcomings I think this book had will be wiped clean by being able to read "part 2" and the Dany/Jon/Tyrion/Arya viewpoints. If we have to wait 2 years, I think I might get soured a bit on the delay between books.

[theohall]

Finished: Spoilers ensue, as if that still needed to be stated.

With the way this world treats people - Cersei should already be dead. Her actions and the failure of others to finish off this woman who obviously cares about no one besides herself. Her kids are just a means for her to have power. She acts like she cares for them, but disrupts their ability to grow on their own if it influences her power in any way. Mistreating everyone around her. The history of this world refers to kings being killed for less than anything Cersei has already done. She should be dead. It's kinda ticking me off that Martin has let her live as long as she has, because it seems completely off kilter that this type world would let her live. [spoiler]Bronn would've had her dead after the failed attempt on his life. He's one of those who really pays debts.[/spoiler] Looks like the High Septon will take care of this finally

As to the moon tea, Margaery and not being intact... The church folks checked her out. She probably did sleep with Renly. I can't see that not happening. That would explain not being intact. The moon tea would be just in case. Fooling around after that - it wouldn't surprise me if Lady Taena became an informer for Margeary by telling Cersei what the other maid was doing. What better way to curry favor than turn in one traitor while being one yourself?

Interesting seeing the church act like the inquisition when given power again.

Brienne's story - probably yelled Arya. Could be Jaime which would mean she's dead anyway. We won't know until later. It's not like folks don't die in these stories.

If Margeary winds up still being tried and being stripped of the crown and Cersei somehow gets out of her mess, couldn't Sansa be the one to overthrow her if Littlefinger's scheming comes to fruition?

And Dorne - oh my. Folks don't like that part, but it's interesting finding out how little power Dorne really possesses. Their power is based on a lie told long ago. They aren't a threat to the realm, but everyone North of Dorne believes they are. That's a staggering political accomplishment. Heck, the daughters don't even realize how small their power is compared to the North. Not until the Prince tells Arianne does she even have a clue about their actual weakness - too few people to actually fight a war.

Seems to me the greatest power lies in Highgarden with the Tyrells. They just have too many fronts to deal with through the past years - Ironborn, Lions, Dorne, Stannis. They are smart enough to attempt to side with the winners all the time to enhance their power. Long term - I see Winterfell restored with Starks ruling in the North and Tyrells ruling in the South - unless Dorne brings the Dragons in on their side.

The dragon alliance - whichever forms should be entertaining. The catch with the dragon alliance - who has the ships to bring her army to Westeros? Tyrells and Ironmen both do. Dorne is trying to buy a fleet. Can they buy one to match? My guess is she winds up sided with Euron because of his ties to Valyria and the fleet he possesses.

[msurby]

Finshed this last night and want to chime in...

Cersei is almost certainly doomed. She finally got (almost) everything she has always wanted and just was too much of a self absorbed fool to make it work. Jaime tossing her letter in the fire was (most likely) the end of her.

Arya is the only thing that would save Brienne. She either said that or she is dead. She may even be dead if she said that - Arya hardly needs saving at this point.

Glad to hear that the Hound is (maybe) not dead. I couldn't remember it happening in book 3, but I didn't reread so I wasn't quite sure. Actually, I think that the Hound is dead, just not Sandor Cleagne.

Victorian is the only Ironborn that I really like, so it is cool that he might hook up with Dany - nice to have a competent reaver on your side when you want to invade a continent.

I really hope Littlefinger's fall puts evryone else's to shame...especially if it is the surviving Stark children fucking him in the ass (figuratively, of course - or not).

[MHS]

Arya hardly needs saving at this point.

Glad to hear that the Hound is (maybe) not dead. I couldn't remember it happening in book 3, but I didn't reread so I wasn't quite sure. Actually, I think that the Hound is dead, just not Sandor Cleagne.

But Catelyn wouldn't know that Arya doesn't need saving, so Brienne yelling Arya would make the most sense.

The Hound didn't die in Book 3, although Arya left him for dead. I'd definitely like to hear more of his story, too.

[RodeoRanch]

I started reading this book on Christmas Day and just couldn't put it down. Even as a gap filling novel in the series it still enthralled me. Just too cool.

And what the hell is Gregor Clegane's massive body being used for?!

[Zinfan]

Must post reply without looking, must post... whew made it in! I have had the book for a few weeks now and lacked the time to get started but once I opened the book and read the prelude I knew one thing- Time to start at the begining because I don't remember all the players and who is dead and who is alive (or should I say not dead yet, based on the previous 3 books ). So back to a Game of Thrones and then I'll work my way to Crows and I'll love every step of the way since I'm a big fan of re-reading my favorite books and series. I also love big long books like Storm of Swords, I wish Feast of Crows was as thick.

[Napoleon]

I personally wasn't as grabbed by the book as I was by the previous ones. Still entertaining, but where I read the previous books in a couple of days, this one took me over a month to get through.

I also suffer hugely from having completely forgotten about half of the characters, so I'm going to restart with GoT as well, I think (although I might skip the prologue...holy shit have I read that a lot of times!)


As for this book, some observations:

The Margaery thing: I got the impression that Renly was gay, am I mistaken? That's why I never thought of Margaery actually sleeping with Renly, although she might have. She probably also slept with the entire rest of the court, the little harlot

Brienne's story was okay, although a tad longish, but man oh man does Catelyn annoy me. She was annoying when she spoke before, but now she also croaks while speaking? YAY !
And yeah, she probably screamed "Arya"

Jaime kicks ass. The End.

About the three dragons: one of them has GOT to be for Jon. Jon pwns all.

[Sherpa]

The Margaery thing: I got the impression that Renly was gay, am I mistaken? That's why I never thought of Margaery actually sleeping with Renly, although she might have. She probably also slept with the entire rest of the court, the little harlot

I think its been intimated that Renly and Loras had something going... perhaps one of the many reasons Cersei didn't see him as "real" man and didn't want him hanging around Tommen (besides him being a Tyrell).

[theohall]

I think its been intimated that Renly and Loras had something going... perhaps one of the many reasons Cersei didn't see him as "real" man and didn't want him hanging around Tommen (besides him being a Tyrell).

No. Cersei didn't want Tommen around Loras simply because Loras is a Tyrell. Heck, he was teaching Tommen how to fight and stand up for himself. Tryell = bad in the eyes of Cersei. It's got nothing to do with this supposed BS about Renly and Loras. There isn't anything there and never was. Loras is Highgarden's version of Jamie Lannister and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he slept with his sister long before Renly ever came along. Cersei just doesn't want any one from Highgarden to be in or near any position of power.

[Sherpa]

I think its been intimated that Renly and Loras had something going... perhaps one of the many reasons Cersei didn't see him as "real" man and didn't want him hanging around Tommen (besides him being a Tyrell).

No. Cersei didn't want Tommen around Loras simply because Loras is a Tyrell. Heck, he was teaching Tommen how to fight and stand up for himself. Tryell = bad in the eyes of Cersei. It's got nothing to do with this supposed BS about Renly and Loras. There isn't anything there and never was. Loras is Highgarden's version of Jamie Lannister and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he slept with his sister long before Renly ever came along. Cersei just doesn't want any one from Highgarden to be in or near any position of power.

But several times (enough that I noticed it at least), Cersei's POV reflected she didn't think of Loras as a "real" man...

And there is this quote by Martin, from a Q&A last year:

"Yes, I did intend those characters to be gay."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/SSM03g.html

[theohall]

Point taken from GRRM commentary. I just didn't see it that way in the reading.

Every man who is an enemy of Cersei isn't a "real" man in her view, not even Eddard Stark. Does that make Ned gay? She's made the "not a real" man comment about several male characters - not coincidentally almost all of them are enemies. Heck, she won't even treat Tommen like a "real" man and treats him like a thing instead.

If one uses Cersei's commentary as a reference for characters being gay, then every male enemy of Cersei would appear to be gay. Heck, we know Tyrion isn't gay, but he still gets the same "not a real" man commentary from her viewpoint.

That's why using that viewpoint as a reference is flawed, even if that's what Martin intended for a particular character, because it's so over-used by Cersei when referring to any non-friendly male person and towards any man she considers weak.

[Peacedog]

Cersei did not, that I could tell, have the gayness as a motive. Stupid bitch whore that she is. So while I do not contest the gayness, I just think Theo is right that it was a tyrell issue.

Cersei is a fucking piece of shit. And screwed. The end.

[Mr. Sparkle]

It seemed totally obvious that Renly and Loras weren't just "really good friends". I don't believe it was just Cersei who made insinuations about it either... it seemed pretty pervasive through all the passages that involved them.

[Jag]

Jon pwns all.

<----------