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FEMA - Worst Run Govt. Agency?

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Padre
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Post by Padre » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:47 pm

Wheee.

This thread needs some Economics 101.

Needed definitions: "efficient", "better".

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noxiousdog
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Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:35 pm

Dogstar wrote:From what I understand, he's not saying that the idea of interstate highways isn't a good one, or that he'd be happier if they weren't there. He's simply stating that he perceives that the project itself isn't necessarily well-run, and might be run more efficiently if handled by the private sector.
Then there is clearly no satisfying him and his opinion is therefore irrelevent.

Given: America has the most successful economy.

If it is true that the most significant factor in the development of that economy is the interstate highway system (which brettmcd has twice decided not to disagree with), then, the interstate highway system is the most successful government achivement by human kind since world war II.

If the most successful government achievement by human kind isn't deemed as "well run," then I fail to see how any government achivement could be.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Post by farley2k » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:39 pm

noxiousdog wrote: If the most successful government achievement by human kind isn't deemed as "well run," then I fail to see how any government achivement could be.
I think you nailed it. For people with Brettmcd's opinion no government project, achivement, etc. can be "well run" Part of their definition of government is "cannot be well run." So by definition it can't be well run if it si a government achivement.
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Post by brettmcd » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:02 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Dogstar wrote:From what I understand, he's not saying that the idea of interstate highways isn't a good one, or that he'd be happier if they weren't there. He's simply stating that he perceives that the project itself isn't necessarily well-run, and might be run more efficiently if handled by the private sector.
Then there is clearly no satisfying him and his opinion is therefore irrelevent.

Given: America has the most successful economy.

If it is true that the most significant factor in the development of that economy is the interstate highway system (which brettmcd has twice decided not to disagree with), then, the interstate highway system is the most successful government achivement by human kind since world war II.

If the most successful government achievement by human kind isn't deemed as "well run," then I fail to see how any government achivement could be.
Gee thanks SO much for deeming my opinions irrelevant, wonderful way to have an open debate on an issue, I guess its easy to 'win' if you automatically deem those who disagree with you to have 'irrelevant' opinions. Seems like you are talking lessons from Farley on how to debate an issue.
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Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:17 pm

Brettmcd wrote:
Gee thanks SO much for deeming my opinions irrelevant,
You're welcome.
wonderful way to have an open debate on an issue,
Open? There's no open. You have catagorically said government=bad. You have decided that the best government project mankind has produced is not well run. There's nothing open about that.

Debate. My only debate here was that your opinion is irrelevent. I think I've done quite well in that regard. Do you care about that opinion of someone whose answer on the topic is always the same and always, 'No.' No matter how stacked the odds are in the deck, their answer is always 'No.'
I guess its easy to 'win' if you automatically deem those who disagree with you to have 'irrelevant' opinions.
It depends on the opponent.
Seems like you are talking lessons from Farley on how to debate an issue.
Now that's a low blow. I shall report you for abuse.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Post by farley2k » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:26 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Seems like you are talking lessons from Farley on how to debate an issue.
Now that's a low blow. I shall report you for abuse.
:cry:
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Post by ChrisGwinn » Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:56 pm

The government-created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the entire secondary mortgage market in this country. The private market couldn't or didn't see the possibility there. Those organizations competed successfully with public companies and are now publicly traded.

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Post by brettmcd » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:07 pm

ChrisGwinn wrote:The government-created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the entire secondary mortgage market in this country. The private market couldn't or didn't see the possibility there. Those organizations competed successfully with public companies and are now publicly traded.
Im done debating this issue, since I dont love big government my opinions have been deemed irrelevent so whats the point debating anymore.
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Post by Enough » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:14 pm

Brettmcd wrote:
ChrisGwinn wrote:The government-created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the entire secondary mortgage market in this country. The private market couldn't or didn't see the possibility there. Those organizations competed successfully with public companies and are now publicly traded.
Im done debating this issue, since I dont love big government my opinions have been deemed irrelevant so whats the point debating anymore.
No your opinions have most certainly not been deemed irrelevant, or we would have stopped responding to you ages ago. Seems more like to me that Chris finally found an example that even you don't doubt, no? And what about privatizing firemen, another question you've dropped?

And no you're not special, we all get hassled about our views in RP from time to time irregardless of where we are coming from. If you can't take the heat though, maybe you are right and you should punt.
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Post by Exodor » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:17 pm

Brettmcd wrote:Im done debating this issue, since I dont love big government my opinions have been deemed irrelevent so whats the point debating anymore.
You opnions have been deemed irrelevant because, as usual, you don't back them up with anything other than a martyr complex.

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Post by Padre » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:20 pm

Uh, Brettmcd, whatever issues you may have with one poster calling your views irrelevant doesn't mean it makes sense for you to take your ball and go home. It's not like noiousgog commands supreme executive power. If you have points to make, make them. I'll listen, for one.

I think you might be interested to read about the concept of market failure. Wikiepdia can start you off.

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Post by brettmcd » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:22 pm

Enough wrote:
Brettmcd wrote:
ChrisGwinn wrote:The government-created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the entire secondary mortgage market in this country. The private market couldn't or didn't see the possibility there. Those organizations competed successfully with public companies and are now publicly traded.
Im done debating this issue, since I dont love big government my opinions have been deemed irrelevant so whats the point debating anymore.
No your opinions have most certainly not been deemed irrelevant, or we would have stopped responding to you ages ago. Seems more like to me that Chris finally found an example that even you don't doubt, no? And what about privatizing firemen, another question you've dropped?

And no you're not special, we all get hassled about our views in RP from time to time irregardless of where we are coming from. If you can't take the heat though, maybe you are right and you should punt.
Really? I guess I just imagined someone specifically stateing my opinions are irrelevant. When that is used as a debate tactic there is no point wasting ones time answering questions and arguements. I can take the 'heat' as you call it, but wasting my time? No, I have better things to do then debate when the answer i get back is that my opinion is irrelevent.
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Post by Poleaxe » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:24 pm

Brettmcd wrote:
ChrisGwinn wrote:The government-created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the entire secondary mortgage market in this country. The private market couldn't or didn't see the possibility there. Those organizations competed successfully with public companies and are now publicly traded.
Im done debating this issue, since I dont love big government my opinions have been deemed irrelevent so whats the point debating anymore.
Suck it up, Nancy.

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Post by Enough » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:27 pm

Brett, see Padre's response. I can get ND to say I and my opinions are wholly irrelevant quicker than you can (and that's when he feels like being nice to me ;) ). But if ND ever showed up in Colorado he would instantly be on my short list for guys I want to go get a beer with. I guess this just wouldn't make sense to you.
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Post by brettmcd » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:37 pm

Enough wrote:Brett, see Padre's response. I can get ND to say I and my opinions are wholly irrelevant quicker than you can (and that's when he feels like being nice to me ;) ). But if ND ever showed up in Colorado he would instantly be on my short list for guys I want to go get a beer with. I guess this just wouldn't make sense to you.
I honestly cant think of anyone on here id like to meet up with anymore. At one time I did, but not a chance anymore. That you wouldwant to waste your time and debate someone who thinks your opinions are irrelevent or someone who specifically states they try to insult you whenever they can makes zero sense to me.
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Post by Padre » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:52 pm

Brettmcd:

Everyone on the forums appears to have a problem with the way you argue. Two possible hypotheses present themselves.

1) Everyone hates you, OR
2) You are doing something wrong.

If you sincerely believe 1), that we're all out to get you, why are you continuing to hang around here?

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Post by brettmcd » Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:58 pm

Padre wrote:Brettmcd:

Everyone on the forums appears to have a problem with the way you argue. Two possible hypotheses present themselves.

1) Everyone hates you, OR
2) You are doing something wrong.

If you sincerely believe 1), that we're all out to get you, why are you continuing to hang around here?
I fail to see anything I am doing wrong other then daring to defend postions that arent 'popular' I dont think everyone 'hates' me, it just happens that people here dont seem to want to treat someone who defends an unpopular opinion with any shred of respect. I have no problem with people debating my opinion, what happens here is people want to debate the person, not the idea, and insult and act with total disrespect towards them.
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Post by Exodor » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:00 pm

Brettmcd wrote:I fail to see anything I am doing wrong other then daring to defend postions that arent 'popular'
That's the problem - you don't present any sort of defense. You throw opinions out there and, if anyone dares to refute them, restate the same opinion while claiming that everyone disagrees because your opinions aren't "popular." Maybe they disagree because they've seen evidence that refutes your opinion?

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Post by Enough » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:06 pm

Brettmcd wrote:
Enough wrote:Brett, see Padre's response. I can get ND to say I and my opinions are wholly irrelevant quicker than you can (and that's when he feels like being nice to me ;) ). But if ND ever showed up in Colorado he would instantly be on my short list for guys I want to go get a beer with. I guess this just wouldn't make sense to you.
I honestly cant think of anyone on here id like to meet up with anymore. At one time I did, but not a chance anymore. That you wouldwant to waste your time and debate someone who thinks your opinions are irrelevent or someone who specifically states they try to insult you whenever they can makes zero sense to me.
Yeah that's it. ND is so gosh-darned mean to me and I should hate him.

Trust me if that's all ND has to go on to argue against my opinions expressed here he is going to be looking like quite the clueless dumbass wonder to most fora patrons in no time at all. But if he occasionally throws out a zinger like he did to you above that is directly related to a more substantive response in a debate it will not be viewed in the same negative way.

And truth be told, over the years ND has nudged me a few directions in our debates and with any luck I might have informed a few of his views as well by now. I do know that one thing I love about posting on RP at OO as opposed to posting on a political blog like DailyKos, etc. is that here you can count on someone challenging you on your views, and you may even run into a few for whom your views are completely new concepts. This has led to better posting/writing for myself and others I've observed over the years in these convos/debates. I'm not so sure those same gains would be realized where one is never fiercely challenged on their views (and short of the zinger comment there are plenty of authentic/substantive challenges to your big government views here in this very thread, quite a few of which you've never responded to).

It can be a really rewarding experience being forced to learn to communicate in this sort of contested venue and frankly it's an experience I have come to treasure. Sorry it's not working out for you.
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Post by Poleaxe » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:10 pm

Exodor wrote:
Brettmcd wrote:I fail to see anything I am doing wrong other then daring to defend postions that arent 'popular'
That's the problem - you don't present any sort of defense. You throw opinions out there and, if anyone dares to refute them, restate the same opinion while claiming that everyone disagrees because your opinions aren't "popular." Maybe they disagree because they've seen evidence that refutes your opinion?
In addition, you argue broad positions that can not be reasonably defended. When presented with examples of well run government programs, you neither re-examined your position nor presented evidence of why those agencies are not well run. You simply stated that they could be run better in the private sector. Is everyone here simply supposed to accept that because it's what you believe? That's not going to happen.

If you're going to make an assertion, either be ready to back it up with evidence or be prepared to admit that you can not back it up. Otherwise, we end up here.

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Post by Dirt » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:11 pm

<----- drives by.

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Post by Padre » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:29 pm

Brettmcd wrote: I fail to see anything I am doing wrong other then daring to defend postions that arent 'popular' I dont think everyone 'hates' me, it just happens that people here dont seem to want to treat someone who defends an unpopular opinion with any shred of respect. I have no problem with people debating my opinion, what happens here is people want to debate the person, not the idea, and insult and act with total disrespect towards them.
I've ben active on OO's R&P forum since OO came into being, and on GGs R&P forum for about a year before it folded, and I have to say that what you have described has for the most part been entirely oppsoite to my experience.

Some people, perhaps out of frustration, have resorted to dismissing you entirely, but I think this has been based not on your opinions and their popularity, but on their means of expression.

In some cases I think what you're percieving as a lack of respect is really just the way in which this forum conducts itself, which is not always within the highest standards of decorum. Sometimes people will be cynical or sarcastic, and you just have to live with that. Personal atttacks are verboten, of course, but that doesn't preclude a quanityt of verbal jousting. That you'll simply have to get used to.

As it is, I'd advise trying not to take things so personally. I've been blasted on this forum before for views on an issue, and often when I examined the arguments it's turned out my detractiors had a point.

-------------

Back to the thread: another useful concept to look into is the idea of merit goods an public goods. Free markets will not provide all things optimally, and this go well beyone fire, police, defence and national security.

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Post by brettmcd » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:08 pm

Padre wrote:
Brettmcd wrote: I fail to see anything I am doing wrong other then daring to defend postions that arent 'popular' I dont think everyone 'hates' me, it just happens that people here dont seem to want to treat someone who defends an unpopular opinion with any shred of respect. I have no problem with people debating my opinion, what happens here is people want to debate the person, not the idea, and insult and act with total disrespect towards them.
I've ben active on OO's R&P forum since OO came into being, and on GGs R&P forum for about a year before it folded, and I have to say that what you have described has for the most part been entirely oppsoite to my experience.

Some people, perhaps out of frustration, have resorted to dismissing you entirely, but I think this has been based not on your opinions and their popularity, but on their means of expression.

In some cases I think what you're percieving as a lack of respect is really just the way in which this forum conducts itself, which is not always within the highest standards of decorum. Sometimes people will be cynical or sarcastic, and you just have to live with that. Personal atttacks are verboten, of course, but that doesn't preclude a quanityt of verbal jousting. That you'll simply have to get used to.

As it is, I'd advise trying not to take things so personally. I've been blasted on this forum before for views on an issue, and often when I examined the arguments it's turned out my detractiors had a point.

-------------

Back to the thread: another useful concept to look into is the idea of merit goods an public goods. Free markets will not provide all things optimally, and this go well beyone fire, police, defence and national security.
I guess I just dont see things as you do, but thats just perspective i guess. Part of the problem here most likely is being a strong conservative on a pretty liberal leaning board. As for taking things 'personally' i just point out when I think others are acting like jerks, and thats not going to change.
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Post by Enough » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:24 pm

Brettmcd wrote:I guess I just dont see things as you do, but thats just perspective i guess. Part of the problem here most likely is being a strong conservative on a pretty liberal leaning board. As for taking things 'personally' i just point out when I think others are acting like jerks, and thats not going to change.
If it is left-leaning fantastic, use this as an opportunity to bone up on your ability to respond to viewpoints different than your own. Oh and I sure hope you don't view ND as a card-carrying liberal, heh.
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Post by Grifman » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:40 pm

Brettmcd wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
farley2k wrote:You asked for a well run governmental agency - you were shown one!
When faced with that you tried to change the focus to "well it would exist without the government doing it"

That is a crappy debate technique.
The interstate highway system is the most cited reason for the emergence of the US as a post WWII superpower. If he's going to denegrate that, he'll denegrate anything.
Saying something isnt well run does NOT mean I am denegrating the entire interstate highway system. I say it could be done better then it currently is.
That's a pretty meaningless statement since about anything being done can be improved in some way.

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Post by Grifman » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:47 pm

Brettmcd wrote:Sadly there is nothing I can say or no point you would accept that would get past your love of big government being the end all solution to every problem in the world.
Oh, please, drop this crap. Just because I don't agree with your idea that govt is the source of all our problems doesn't mean I think the govt is also the answer to everything. Everyone isn't an extremist.
MOST of what government does could be done better and more efficiently in other ways.
And why am I supposed to believe this statement? What evidence have you provided? Or am I supposed to accept this just because you said it? :)
And some of the things you list are things that ONLY government is allowed to do, so putting them on any list is pointless as the private sector is not allowed to do their functions constitutionally.
I didn't find any such qualification in your assertion that govt can't do much right. Are you partially recanting now? :)
Also what congress (the government) does is not the fault of the government???? That makes zero sense.
Then let explain. Much of the ire of people like yourself is aimed at the govt "bureaucracy". My point is that our elected representatives create problems for the bureaucracy by imposing silly rules, contradictory directives, or changing rules in midstream. That was my point in drawing such a distinction, got it?

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Post by brettmcd » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:48 pm

Grifman wrote:
Brettmcd wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
farley2k wrote:You asked for a well run governmental agency - you were shown one!
When faced with that you tried to change the focus to "well it would exist without the government doing it"

That is a crappy debate technique.
The interstate highway system is the most cited reason for the emergence of the US as a post WWII superpower. If he's going to denegrate that, he'll denegrate anything.
Saying something isnt well run does NOT mean I am denegrating the entire interstate highway system. I say it could be done better then it currently is.
That's a pretty meaningless statement since about anything being done can be improved in some way.
Wow both irrelevent AND meaningless!
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Post by Grifman » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:58 pm

Poleaxe wrote:
Grifman wrote:
Poleaxe wrote:
Grifman wrote: Capitalism is extremely wasteful, as companies and investments are destroyed all the time. And we end up paying for it also. Companies go under leaving unpaid debts, shareholders lose investments, etc. All of this comes out of our GNP. Sure, this destructive process presumably makes things better overall in the long term as inefficient companies go out of business, but it's a bit messy and wasteful while it happens.
Capitalism is generally self-correcting. Govt. rarely is.
I think I pointed that out. But the self correction algorithm is extremely wasteful. And it oftentimes doesn't stop other wasteful corporations from developing. I think my point still stands.
Yeah, but it's like saying that democracy is the worst form of government except for every other form.
And that's about true. Capitalism is a pretty crappy economic system - except when compared with all the others. Tremendous resources are wasted each year - look at all the thousands of small businesses that fail each year, not to mention large corporations. Look at all the factory closures and wasted resources. Look at the waste of skills and training of unemployed managers, professionals, skilled factory workers, etc. The system is tremendously wasteful.

Capitalism also has no "heart". It doesn't care if you or I earn enough to make a living or feed or families. All it "cares" about is whether we are paid whatever the "market" decides. It doesn't care about child labor, or whether I have to work 40 or 100 hours a week to make a living. It doesn't care about safety except that the cost of safety is not greater than lost work. Capitalism also suffers from the problem of the commons - common goods such as air, water, etc, don't count for much in capitalism. Much of this our society has mitigated against, but this mitigation isn't a part of capitalism in it's pure form.

I'm not saying anythiing is better - I'm just saying alot of people see it as unmitigated good, and fail to see the "dark side" of capitalism. And I think you can only do so by wearing blinders.

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Post by Padre » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:02 pm

Brettmcd wrote: Wow both irrelevent AND meaningless!
See, that right there, that's what irritates people.

For one thing, the people here aren't monolithic. Two different people have said two different words.

Secondly, the statement was stated to be meaningless. That's not a personal attack, that's an a opinion abot your statement. Backed by appropiate argument it is entirely germane to the debate.

For example:

"I think donuts are good"
"Define good"
"Good is a propert of donuts."
"Then your argument is circular and the original statement is meaningless."

Similarly, "irrelevant" - for example:

"I think person X would make a good Sureme Court Justice."
"I disagree."
"But he sevred brilliantly in the Vietnam War!"
"Irrelevant."

That's a perfectly sensible debate, don't you agree? Someone brought up a piece of information and it's significance was called into question.

So stop waving around the words as if to prove you're some pariah and start addresing the arguments.

For example, Grifman pointed out that saying the highway system "could be done better than it is" as a form of argument in favour of your point of view doesn't work, because everything is capable of improvement. This invites a reasoned response.

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Post by Grifman » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:04 pm

Dogstar wrote:From what I understand, he's not saying that the idea of interstate highways isn't a good one, or that he'd be happier if they weren't there. He's simply stating that he perceives that the project itself isn't necessarily well-run, and might be run more efficiently if handled by the private sector.
The problem is he gives no evidence to support his assertions. He just asserts it as a brute fact. Sorry, but I think around here, people expect alot more evidence than just "Brettmcd said so" :)

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Post by Grifman » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:07 pm

ChrisGwinn wrote:The government-created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created the entire secondary mortgage market in this country. The private market couldn't or didn't see the possibility there. Those organizations competed successfully with public companies and are now publicly traded.
That's a very good example.

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Post by noxiousdog » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:47 pm

Enough wrote:I can get ND to say I and my opinions are wholly irrelevant quicker than you can (and that's when he feels like being nice to me ;) ).
I'll say some of your points are irrelevent, or some of your facts are irrelevent. I don't think I've found your opinion to be irrelevent.

But if ND ever showed up in Colorado he would instantly be on my short list for guys I want to go get a beer with. I guess this just wouldn't make sense to you.
Deal, but you ought to try for the July Atlantic City get together.

Brett: it's not that I find you irrelevent, it's that I think your take on government is so extreme that that particular take is irrelevent. I'm libertarian enough to hate mandatory social security, the war on drugs, the war on terror, I think the FDA hinders more than it helps, want to overhaul the tax system, think corporate income taxation is dumb (note: only applies to publicly held corporations), and generally dislike nearly all forms of government subsidy. Yet, I find your stand on this issue unjustifiable.

Not once have you come back with any response other than: "government bad, everyone is mean to me!"

I'd be happy to engage in a conversation, but you give us nothing to provide feedback on.
My continuing adventures of learning to play piano. - Now Playing Moonlight Sonata

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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Post by ChrisGwinn » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:22 am

Brettmcd wrote:
Enough wrote:Brett, see Padre's response. I can get ND to say I and my opinions are wholly irrelevant quicker than you can (and that's when he feels like being nice to me ;) ). But if ND ever showed up in Colorado he would instantly be on my short list for guys I want to go get a beer with. I guess this just wouldn't make sense to you.
I honestly cant think of anyone on here id like to meet up with anymore. At one time I did, but not a chance anymore. That you wouldwant to waste your time and debate someone who thinks your opinions are irrelevent or someone who specifically states they try to insult you whenever they can makes zero sense to me.
There's more than one person in this thread. I'm pretty sure that some of us have never said that your opinions are irrelevant and have never stated our intent to insult you.

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Post by brettmcd » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:34 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Enough wrote:I can get ND to say I and my opinions are wholly irrelevant quicker than you can (and that's when he feels like being nice to me ;) ).
I'll say some of your points are irrelevent, or some of your facts are irrelevent. I don't think I've found your opinion to be irrelevent.

But if ND ever showed up in Colorado he would instantly be on my short list for guys I want to go get a beer with. I guess this just wouldn't make sense to you.
Deal, but you ought to try for the July Atlantic City get together.

Brett: it's not that I find you irrelevent, it's that I think your take on government is so extreme that that particular take is irrelevent. I'm libertarian enough to hate mandatory social security, the war on drugs, the war on terror, I think the FDA hinders more than it helps, want to overhaul the tax system, think corporate income taxation is dumb (note: only applies to publicly held corporations), and generally dislike nearly all forms of government subsidy. Yet, I find your stand on this issue unjustifiable.

Not once have you come back with any response other than: "government bad, everyone is mean to me!"

I'd be happy to engage in a conversation, but you give us nothing to provide feedback on.
As ive said there is little point in discussing the issues in this thread anymore, as noone bothers to actually read what is posted, even what youve just wrote isnt close to what ive said.
There is no problem so large that it cannot be solved by a liberal dosage of explosives.

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Post by noxiousdog » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:02 am

Brettmcd wrote: As ive said there is little point in discussing the issues in this thread anymore, as noone bothers to actually read what is posted, even what youve just wrote isnt close to what ive said.
Brettmcd wrote: Is there such a thing as a well run federal agency????? Sadly the rule at the governmental level seems to be waste and incompetance. FEMA is no different.

...

Please then name all these 'well-run' federal plans and agencies. I cant think of one that I would give that much credit to.

...

Government by its very nature is innefiecient in almost all things it does

...

Most of what the government does is done in about the most inefficient manor possible and wastes vast amounts of money. Again I fail to see all these 'well run' governmental agencies that you seem to think exist.

...


...

And good thing you decide to be insulting whenever possible.

...

Nice of you to admit you are just being a troll then.

...

Im done debating this issue, since I dont love big government my opinions have been deemed irrelevent so whats the point debating anymore.

...

I honestly cant think of anyone on here id like to meet up with anymore. At one time I did, but not a chance anymore.'

...

Wow both irrelevent AND meaningless!
My continuing adventures of learning to play piano. - Now Playing Moonlight Sonata

Amazon Kindle Book Loaning Thread

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Post by Dogstar » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:46 am

SuperHiro wrote:
Dismissal of argument while presenting no counter argument. Statement asserting original statement as true. Accusation of wrongful and malicious persecution. Condescending remark.
Mr. Fed wrote:
Wounded, self-dramatizing, non-traditionally spelled and punctuated riposte. Gratuitous reference to past conflicts. Characterization of disagreeing persons by group. Paranoid-delusional complaints of persecution.
Sound familiar?

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Post by brettmcd » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:51 am

Dogstar wrote:SuperHiro wrote:
Dismissal of argument while presenting no counter argument. Statement asserting original statement as true. Accusation of wrongful and malicious persecution. Condescending remark.
Mr. Fed wrote:
Wounded, self-dramatizing, non-traditionally spelled and punctuated riposte. Gratuitous reference to past conflicts. Characterization of disagreeing persons by group. Paranoid-delusional complaints of persecution.
Sound familiar?
Yes it does, its the familiar sound of people acting like jerks.
There is no problem so large that it cannot be solved by a liberal dosage of explosives.

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Post by noxiousdog » Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:53 am

Brettmcd wrote:
Yes it does, its the familiar sound of people acting like jerks.
Sweet, Farley, now we're in the same league as SH and Fed. Though, supes is much nicer than I am.
My continuing adventures of learning to play piano. - Now Playing Moonlight Sonata

Amazon Kindle Book Loaning Thread

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog

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Post by deadzone » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:39 pm

Brett - Do you think we would be better off with no government intervention in most things? Serious question for you, I am trying to understand your position better.

That being said, I think handing it all over to private industry is not really a good idea either. Well okay, I can concede that it may work - but it's a damn scary thing to think about for me at least. Private entities are based on profit only - nothing else seems to drive them.

When you factor in all the schmoozing that big companies do with the government so they can get certain things done that they want... Well it begins to get scary. You need to look no further than the state this country is in when you look at broadband deployment, technology, and speed. It sucks, and it's because of a lack of government involvement in my opinion.

That's getting off subject though. I could rant about just that for a while but I won't bore you guys or embarrass myself any further.

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Post by brettmcd » Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:55 pm

deadzone wrote:Brett - Do you think we would be better off with no government intervention in most things? Serious question for you, I am trying to understand your position better.

That being said, I think handing it all over to private industry is not really a good idea either. Well okay, I can concede that it may work - but it's a damn scary thing to think about for me at least. Private entities are based on profit only - nothing else seems to drive them.

When you factor in all the schmoozing that big companies do with the government so they can get certain things done that they want... Well it begins to get scary. You need to look no further than the state this country is in when you look at broadband deployment, technology, and speed. It sucks, and it's because of a lack of government involvement in my opinion.

That's getting off subject though. I could rant about just that for a while but I won't bore you guys or embarrass myself any further.
Ill try this again.

Yes I do think we would be better off with as limited governmental participation in most things as possible.

Profit is not a bad way to try and run things, as it many times (not always) leads to things being more efficient and other positive things. In too many areas government, because in our system there is really noone to answer to as we send 90+% of the idiots back to washington year after year, the 'solution' they come up with is to throw more money at a problem, or create yet another commission to look at a problem they have already looked at a half dozen or more times before. At least with profit as a goal there is more accountability in many cases (again not all).
There is no problem so large that it cannot be solved by a liberal dosage of explosives.

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