Is an Israel/Pal Middle East Peace possible?

[Jag]

I keep reading optimistic reports of possible peace between Israel and the Pals. I'm not sure what to make of it though. Sure Arafat is gone and he was the main obstacle to peace, regardless of whether you view him as freedom fighter or terrorist. (primarily b/c no one trusted him). But the big question is now what?

The Pals will have elections and most likely vote in Abbas, a moderate. Can a moderate bring peace to the table? Can he appease the arab street who have been promised everything, but only keep losing?

Then on the Israeli side, after years of violence, what will they be prepared to give up?

Let's see what's on the table:

1. Gaza. Done

2. West Bank. Most likely apportionment along the lines of the Barak/Clinton deal. Although what happens to the wall?

3. Right of Return. Never gonna happen. Israel would lose it's jewish majority in a few years to the Pals, they ain't gonna do that.

4. East Jerusalem as the Pal Capital? Tough to call. It's easy to say that Israel would never allow it, but this will probably be a tough point.

5. Prisoners. Israel will most likely release a majority of the non-violent ones. However, people convicted of crimes of violence will most likely not be released, like Bargouhti.

Those are my thoughts, just wanted a different perspective than the traditional media. Besides, this forum needs some more mideast chat.

[Chrisoc13]

Call me completely ignorant on the matter, but what is right of return? Ive taken classes on this subject and I still cant seem to think of what it is. Hopefully im just being forgetful.

[Tareeq]

The descendants of the Palestinians want to return to the land on which their families lived before the Arab attacks of 1948. They want to bring their kids as well.

[Dirt]

3. Right of Return. Never gonna happen. Israel would lose it's jewish majority in a few years to the Pals, they ain't gonna do that.

So much for democracy...

[Defiant]

Encouraging signs:

Support of terrorist attacks among Palestinians has dropped more than 20% since last June, a public opinion poll published by the Jerusalem Media and Communication Center has revealed.

Six months ago, the figure stood at 65.4%. However, only 41% currently believe that continuation of attacks against Israeli targets are a suitable response during the current political situation.

Palestinian poll shows significant drop in support of terror

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon invited the opposition Labor Party on Friday to form a national unity government, seeking to avoid early elections and ensure a planned withdrawal from the Gaza Strip next year.

Sharon, with Party Backing, Invites Labor Into Govt

srael is prepared to coordinate its pullout from Gaza with a new Palestinian government, officials said Sunday, a shift from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's concept of "unilateral disengagement" and a sign that cooperation may be restored in the post-Arafat era.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004 ... htm?csp=36

Less encouraging news:

Mr. Abbas has a slim lead of 40 percent to 38 percent according to a poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. Mr. Barghouti has a narrow advantage of 46 percent to 44 percent according to a poll conducted by Bir Zeit University's Development Studies Program. Both polls, based on surveys last week of more than 1,000 Palestinians, have a margin of error of three percentage points.

The third poll, by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion, gave Mr. Abbas a clear lead, 40 percent to 22 percent for Mr. Barghouti. That poll surveyed just under 1,000 Palestinians and also had a margin of error of three percentage points.

Palestinian Polls Show Tie Between Abbas and Barghouti

[Defiant]

3. Right of Return. Never gonna happen. Israel would lose it's jewish majority in a few years to the Pals, they ain't gonna do that.

So much for democracy...

Democracy, huh?

[Defiant]

4. East Jerusalem as the Pal Capital? Tough to call. It's easy to say that Israel would never allow it, but this will probably be a tough point.

Part of the Clinton proposal handed over a suburb of Jerusalem to the Palestinains. Abbas supported the idea, at least in the past. Whether he still does remains to be seen.

[Dirt]

3. Right of Return. Never gonna happen. Israel would lose it's jewish majority in a few years to the Pals, they ain't gonna do that.

So much for democracy...

Democracy, huh?

I don't get it. What does the article have to do with Israel and their desire to maintain the Jewish people as the majority at all costs?

[Little Raven]

A bigger problem will be water rights. Last I heard, Israel wants to keep water rights to all the West Bank. (and for good reason, water is very valuable in this part of the world) Obviously, the Palestinians will want this too. I'm not sure how they're going to resolve that. The Palestinians can't live without the water, and the Israelis have no incentive to give it up.

[Defiant]

I don't get it. What does the article have to do with Israel and their desire to maintain the Jewish people as the majority at all costs?

If the "vast majority of the Palestinians" don't want the right of return, but compensation, how is it a democratic policy?

Anyway, the Palestinians aren't citizens of Israel.

On water:

Work at different, if informal, levels continued. First of all, "Track II" diplomacy — which did not really exist in a meaningful way prior to Oslo but which got very serious in the Arab-Israeli and nongovernmental meetings after Oslo — has been ongoing. Second, instead of formal meetings of the working groups, there have been informal intersessional meetings that bring Israelis and Arabs together to build databases on issues like water, the environment, and refugees. A certain degree of progress has been made in these meetings, especially in the area of water. What this all means is that an infrastructure for the multilateral process still exists, but it needs to be reenergized.

Dennis Ross

[Dirt]

I don't get it. What does the article have to do with Israel and their desire to maintain the Jewish people as the majority at all costs?

If the "vast majority of the Palestinians" don't want the right of return, but compensation, how is it a democratic policy?

Don't we do that with the American Indians? We also paid a whole bunch of Japanese Americans for their time in the concentration camps.

[Defiant]

If the "vast majority of the Palestinians" don't want the right of return, but compensation, how is it a democratic policy?

Don't we do that with the American Indians? We also paid a whole bunch of Japanese Americans for their time in the concentration camps.

So why couldn't the Palestinains be "paid a whole bunch", especially since that's what they prefer?

[Dirt]

If the "vast majority of the Palestinians" don't want the right of return, but compensation, how is it a democratic policy?

Don't we do that with the American Indians? We also paid a whole bunch of Japanese Americans for their time in the concentration camps.

So why couldn't the Palestinains be "paid a whole bunch", especially since that's what they prefer?

They can. Pay the Palestinians with some land they can feed their people with.

[Defiant]

They can. Pay the Palestinians with some land they can feed their people with.

Wow, I wonder why no one ever thought of that before. Why, it might even be a step in bringing peace to the region.

[Dirt]

They can. Pay the Palestinians with some land they can feed their people with.

Wow, I wonder why no one ever thought of that before. Why, it might even be a step in bringing peace to the region.

What do you think Israel should do to make this happen? Is it really land that the Palestinians can use to feed their people? Is it land worth having? Can the land give them more than just a place to build a casino on?

[CSL]

They can. Pay the Palestinians with some land they can feed their people with.

Wow, I wonder why no one ever thought of that before. Why, it might even be a step in bringing peace to the region.

What do you think Israel should do to make this happen? Is it really land that the Palestinians can use to feed their people? Is it land worth having? Can the land give them more than just a place to build a casino on?

Exactly why would any Israeli government give anything but marginal land to returning Palestinians when instead they can give it to settlers who have illegally taken over Palestinian land. With the powerful lobbying group of settlers influing the Likkud I see no possibility of that ever panning out.

[Defiant]

Exactly why would any Israeli government give anything but marginal land to returning Palestinians when instead they can give it to settlers who have illegally taken over Palestinian land. With the powerful lobbying group of settlers influing the Likkud I see no possibility of that ever panning out.

The same way Likud didn't return the most valuable land Israel ever owned, The Sinai Peninsula (containing oil, natural gas and Uranium deposits) to Egypt?

But, then, if we just want to bash, why should Israel give any land (as well as ethnically cleanse that land of Jews) to a society that has endowed martyrdom and stardom to individuals who try to murder as many innocent Israelis (as well as innocent Palestinians who oppose them) as they can?

[The Mad Hatter]

Exactly why would any Israeli government give anything but marginal land to returning Palestinians when instead they can give it to settlers who have illegally taken over Palestinian land. With the powerful lobbying group of settlers influing the Likkud I see no possibility of that ever panning out.

The same way Likud didn't return the most valuable land Israel ever owned, The Sinai Peninsula (containing oil, natural gas and Uranium deposits) to Egypt?

But, then, if we just want to bash, why should Israel give any land (as well as ethnically cleanse that land of Jews) to a society that has endowed martyrdom and stardom to individuals who try to murder as many innocent Israelis (as well as innocent Palestinians who oppose them) as they can?

Ignoring the silly bashing of Palestinians there (as if Israel had nothing to do with the creation of that mentality) - because it's in their best interests to do so. Just as it was when they returned the Sinai Peninsula. Holding onto the territories will continue draining their resources and debasing their troops, and all it will accomplish is to accelerate the end of the "Jewish state" and the creation of a new apartheid nation. Israel is losing the war of demographics; even inside pre-1967 borders Jews will inevitably become a minority. A comprehensive peace is the only way the country can survive in the long run.