newbie to Civ - Which version to get?

[coopasonic]

LordMortis and the gang have made the Civ games sound too good to pass up. Should I start with Civ 3, Civ 3 complete or Civ 4?

My PC is fairly up to date, so I don't think Civ IV would hurt it and $50 wouldn't break the budget. I'm wondering if there is good reason to try to find Civ 3 cheap ($10 from gogamer - might be in jewel case at Wal_Mart, etc by now ) or if I should go straight for Civ 4 and whatever new goodness that entails.

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Mods - If this belongs in General, please move, it seemed like a toss up to me.

[Jeff V]

4.

[dbt1949]

3 complete.
4 has good rule changes but the graphics make the scale all off.

[LordMortis]

I wouldn't whore Civ to anyone but strategy board gamers (though even if you aren't you may still like it), but IV is head and shoulders above the rest.

[Chesspieceface]

Aside from hardware and budget, both of which you nixxed, I cant think of any reason to get Civ 3 now.

[IkeVandergraaf]

4 easy. There are still some purists who claim that the 2 was the best, but 3 had issues that made it not so much fun.

[craterus]

Alot of people with "fairly up to date" pc's have problems with civ4. Be sure to go to a site like civfanatics.com and check the bugs/errors section and see how people with different requirements are doing.

if you are going to get civ3 - you might as well get complete (though they never released a patch to fix the most obvious issues that fans were clamering for). Personally I would not recommend civ 3 at all.

Civ4 was working ok on small maps for me - then the new patch started some kind of super slow down issue... currently playing guildwars and halflife instead (though I wish I could be playing civ 4 instead).

[B Dog]

The only reason I can think to try Civ 3 first is if you're unsure whether or not turn-based strategy/4X games are your cup of tea.

While I agree that Civ 4 is a definite improvement over Civ 3, if you find nothing whatsoever to like in Civ 3, there's nothing in 4 that'll likely change that.

[coopasonic]

4 has good rule changes but the graphics make the scale all off.

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean map scale?

I wouldn't whore Civ to anyone but strategy board gamers (though even if you aren't you may still like it), but IV is head and shoulders above the rest.

As I responded in the other thread, I think this would be me, but I don't have anyone to play with and board games don't come with AI opponents.

Alot of people with "fairly up to date" pc's have problems with civ4

3.4GHZ HT, 6800GT, 2GB RAM, Audigy 2. About as vanilla as you get, I'll check the forums though, thanks.

[Sarkus]

I don't see why you'd buy anything but 4. That's where the community is at.

Be prepared, however. Civ 4 has a basic tutorial but it's the kind of game that you just have to play to figure out. Plan on reading the manual to quicken the learning curve. One good thing is all the difficulty levels - something like 9 levels. Start off at the bottom.

[dbt1949]

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean map scale?

Yes.The large 3D graphics of everything makes even huge worlds much smaller than in 3.
And who programmed in that all civilazations seem to have to start on my continent?

[coopasonic]

I don't see why you'd buy anything but 4. That's where the community is at.

Be prepared, however. Civ 4 has a basic tutorial but it's the kind of game that you just have to play to figure out. Plan on reading the manual to quicken the learning curve. One good thing is all the difficulty levels - something like 9 levels. Start off at the bottom.

Ahh, that brings up (and answers) the point I forgot.

Thanks.

[abr]

Alot of people with "fairly up to date" pc's have problems with civ4. Be sure to go to a site like civfanatics.com and check the bugs/errors section and see how people with different requirements are doing.

Or try the demo.

[LordMortis]

I can't speak to the learning curve at all, as I have been playing for 4x games since well before that's what I learned to call them. Since even before Empire I had a game I played on the Atari 8 bit in ASCIII, that had star systems you took over and built increasingly advanced fleets on.

The interface is likely not obvious and you need to spend time playing with each and every aspect of it to get comfortable with it. It is not, however, clumsy, just not familiar. There's a lot to it, but being turn based you can be casual about your interaction with it.

There is a lot going on and to be balanced in the game, but that's the fun of building a civilization and conquoring your rivals.

The early advice about starting with tutorial, then playing easy and working your way to your comfort level is good advice. I'm talking to a lot of people who hit "normal" (noble) level and found their comfort level, where I have been pulling my hair out trying to make positive game out a midlevel game on two steps up from "normal."

[LordMortis]

Alot of people with "fairly up to date" pc's have problems with civ4. Be sure to go to a site like civfanatics.com and check the bugs/errors section and see how people with different requirements are doing.

Or try the demo.

There's a demo? I'd go that route. And hope it is a patched demo, because (for me at least) the game is much better post patch.

[coopasonic]

Alot of people with "fairly up to date" pc's have problems with civ4. Be sure to go to a site like civfanatics.com and check the bugs/errors section and see how people with different requirements are doing.

Or try the demo.

There's a demo? I'd go that route. And hope it is a patched demo, because (for me at least) the game is much better post patch.

Cool, I couldn't find any mention of the demo on the Firaxis or 2kgames sites, but found it on the usual demo file servers. It looks like it is from late November. I don't know if this makes it pre or post-patch.

I'll see if I have the patience to try the demo before buying. Once i get the buying bug it can be hard to shake.

[ChrisGwinn]

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean map scale?

Yes.The large 3D graphics of everything makes even huge worlds much smaller than in 3.
And who programmed in that all civilazations seem to have to start on my continent?

That's not actually true. Map size varies by map type - the largest maps in civ 4 (Terra) are bigger than the largest maps in civ 3.

And different map scripts have different starting points for civs.... Some of them give every civ their own land mass, others scatter, other start all of them on the same continent.

[DireAussie]

4 for sure. Every aspect of 4 is better than 3.

Alternatively, find civ 1 on an abandonware site, download dosbox and find out where it all started

[edited out a paragraph because I cant read properly]

In regard to the large graphics, after I modified the camera settings so that it zoomed out better I didnt have a problem.

[coopasonic]

Bought Civ4, went through the tutorial and played that to completion, mostly oblivious of what my options were... finished up by sending a column of tanks through Ghandi's civ blowing the crap out of everything. Then I read the first 90 pages or so of the manul and found out just how much was not covered in the tutorial. Looking forward to playing again tomorrow, perhaps with an opponent that fights back!

[Chesspieceface]

Plan on a lot less sleep my friend. And welcome to 'One more turn...'

[LordMortis]

Looking forward to playing again tomorrow, perhaps with an opponent that fights back!

Oh they will come. Usually at the most inopportune moments. Previous games have had me building a sparse military until I chose to be aggressive. That is a sure fire sign to get invaded if the barbarians don't kick your ass first.

[Elenkis]

If you are caught up on this scale issue that I can't say I've even noticed enough to slightly bother me (despite playing the series since Civ 1), get Civ 3. Though I don't see how anyone who hasn't even played the series before could care about such a thing.

If more fun, better balanced gameplay and far better AI are your priority in strategy games, get Civ 4.

Personally I can think of no reason I'd want to play Civ 3 again. Even if I no longer had a machine capable of running Civ 4 I think going back to 3 would just annoy me and I'd miss too much about 4.

[Moggy123]

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean map scale?

Yes.The large 3D graphics of everything makes even huge worlds much smaller than in 3.
And who programmed in that all civilazations seem to have to start on my continent?

That's not actually true. Map size varies by map type - the largest maps in civ 4 (Terra) are bigger than the largest maps in civ 3.

And different map scripts have different starting points for civs.... Some of them give every civ their own land mass, others scatter, other start all of them on the same continent.

If you play a Terra map, then that's by design. Supposed to mimic the "Old World" and the "New world". I don't play this type any more as it ends up being a rush to Caravels to land grab the new continent.

Continents is the typical world where the civs are spread between several large masses.

The Continents alternative trys to put each civ on their own continent. You'll need to pick a smaller number of civs than the recommended for this to work.

If you want a brutal type of game, playa large map with raging barbarians. There's so much unseen space that the number of barbarians is huge. Awesome.

I've had a lot of fun playing the plains map and the inland sea. Artificial but a great layout. Also nice to be able to "back up to a wall".

The Lakes map is a bit "blah" (IMHO)

I really liked the Earth scenario (I played Egypt and ruled Africa before getting whomped by the Romans). The problem with the map is there's no randomness. Same Civs with the same starting positions and the same resources. I'm working on an Earth map that allows for variable size and random Civs. Each civ chosen will start within a small radius of location. I'll allocate resources randomly based upon terrain type.

The rules you select when playing a custom game can make a big difference as well. My current choices are:

- only conquest victory condition
- no time limit
- no tech trading
- sometime pick raging barbarians

I usually play Epic on a Large world, but I'm finding these games take forever. I may have to give back my gamers card - I'm only playing 1 - 2 hours a day and Guitar Hero gets first pick right now. Until my left hand freezes up, any way.

[coopasonic]

Well the lowest difficulty setting, while not actually being difficult, was a learning experience... I played 4 hour straight and was a bit shocked when I looked at the clock after the game ended.

I was the Incas (random) on a continent with Spain, England and some other chick (Hepsatethamecha-something). We all played nice for a few hundred years then I talked England into attacking Hepsasumthin and joined in for fun and learned that attacking cities can be painful even with superior forces. Little did I know this little ancient war would have repercussions through the next 3,000 years.

I flipflopped between Spain and England... England offered me some good trades and Isabella is hot (and hated England) so I couldn't decide what was more beneficial... again I think this cost me in the end.

I never even thought about the other continent until a couple thousand years later when Washington stops by to say hello, then Caesar, then Japan. We all got along pretty well until I built the UN and got elected as the leader. After 3 or 4 failed attempts at diplomatic victory that saw me losing ground to Caesar and eventually losing the UN leadership to him., Caesar declared war on me...

It was late, late in the game 2005-2010 maybe and my best units were a war elephant and a catapult and I had nothing for a navy (remember Caesar is on the other continent). I immediately begin production at random of what I think are the best attackers, Modern Armor, Mech Infantry, B2 Bomber, destroyer, aircraft carrier, submarine, battleship. He attacks a city with some spearmen and cavalry, my defending level 3 mech infantry (upgraded from the original warrior I started with at great expense) wiped them out without a scratch which gave me some confidence.

I sent the Navy again one of his coastal cities only to realize I had no way to attack directly and could only bombard... I either figured out the B2 could not be loaded onto an aircraft carrier or that I didn't know what I was doing... I built a transport quick while I was bombarding and send the armor and mech infantry over... that's when I found out how effective a gunship is against modern armor... I also found out that in the time I was doing all of this he had put about 20 units in that city including 3-4 gunships. I lost all of my ground units pretty fast without really hurting him very much, it seems defenders have a huge advantage in being able to select the best unit to defend with.

I lucked out and 2050 rolled around and I won a time victory before he counter-attacked. I got a promising Dan Quayle ranking for my efforts, but hopefully I learned a few things that will help next time.

Freaking game.

[ChrisGwinn]

I really liked the Earth scenario (I played Egypt and ruled Africa before getting whomped by the Romans). The problem with the map is there's no randomness. Same Civs with the same starting positions and the same resources. I'm working on an Earth map that allows for variable size and random Civs. Each civ chosen will start within a small radius of location. I'll allocate resources randomly based upon terrain type.

I also really like the Earth scenario. One of my big complaints with Civ 3 was not being able to play on earth. My second game was a cultural victory with the Romans - I think they have a great starting position.

[Peacedog]

Definately IV.

[Bakhtosh]

...learned that attacking cities can be painful even with superior forces...

Prior to the invention of catpults, Swordsmen or heavily upgraded Inca Unique Units (UU) are the only option for attacking cities. Once catapults are on the field, you MUST use them on the attack. You first use them to bombard the defenses. See that number off to the bottom right of a city? That's its defense value. Any troop inside the city gets that bonus. Catapults and other artillery (and some ships) can eliminate that bonus with enough bombardment. Then you sacrifice a few catapults to inflict collateral damage. When you attack with a Collateral Damage unit, it does a random amount of damage to up to 8 units other than the one defending. This damage cannot be blocked or reduced. It can be increased with certain promotions. Once the defenders are softened up, they're much easier to defeat.

I flipflopped between Spain and England... England offered me some good trades and Isabella is hot (and hated England) so I couldn't decide what was more beneficial... again I think this cost me in the end.

For best results, figure out if one civ nearby is the worst enemy of several of your neighbors. Try to keep the most powerful civs happy that you can. It's nearly impossible to play one civ against another without getting involved.

I sent the Navy again one of his coastal cities only to realize I had no way to attack directly and could only bombard... I either figured out the B2 could not be loaded onto an aircraft carrier or that I didn't know what I was doing... I built a transport quick while I was bombarding and send the armor and mech infantry over... that's when I found out how effective a gunship is against modern armor... I also found out that in the time I was doing all of this he had put about 20 units in that city including 3-4 gunships. I lost all of my ground units pretty fast without really hurting him very much, it seems defenders have a huge advantage in being able to select the best unit to defend with.

If your opponent has aircraft, you will need SAM infantry escorting your attacking units. You can also put some fighters on a carrier, set them on intercept, and park it near the beachhead your troops land on. Oh, and make sure you're offloading your invaders onto the land before you attack. Attacking directly from a boat gives you a horrible disadvantage. Also, look at the terrain. Do not attack across a river since this reduces your attack rating. Bombers need a city to attack from. Once you capture an enemy city, then you can move the bombers to that city and bombard/attack with them the following turn. Use your navy to eliminate an enemy's defenses, use several artillery to inflict CD (properly upgraded armor can do this too), use SAM infantry & Mech Infantry to defend atillery & tanks from aircraft/gunships, use tanks to finish off the city's defenders. If there is a hill or forest next to the enemy city, park your guys there to get the extra defense bonus, and to deny it to their units. Remember that if he attacks your stack with artillery, it does CD to several of your units too. Sometimes you'll want to split your forces up, but make sure you have a couple of good defenders in each stack.

Have a medic unit in each stack to increase the healing rate after a round of attacks.

Freaking game.

Welcome, my young apprentice...

[coopasonic]

Thanks for the tips Bakh... just finished my second game moving up to chieftain level and I never got around to getting on the offensive, I certainly learned how to use the defensive bonuses to protect myself when attacked though. Of course having machine guns and marines against attacking catapults and cavalry helps too.

I guess I'll stick with chieftain until I can get some practice on the offensive. Time victories are not very fulfilling.

[Moggy123]

Coop,

For your next game, choose "custom" and then uncheck all vistory conditions accept conquest. Then you'll have to get aggressive!

[LordMortis]

Thanks for the tips Bakh... just finished my second game moving up to chieftain level and I never got around to getting on the offensive, I certainly learned how to use the defensive bonuses to protect myself when attacked though. Of course having machine guns and marines against attacking catapults and cavalry helps too.

I guess I'll stick with chieftain until I can get some practice on the offensive. Time victories are not very fulfilling.

When you pump up levels, you will learn to build a military before you are comfortable building a military. You will get attacked often and you will get sick of getting attacked and launch your own offensives. You can practice it on cheiftain level, but it still won't prepare you for the frustration of having to forego your timely build with a huge military machine. But this frustration is the all part of the fun and addiction.

[Austin]

Coop, when attacking, right click like you are going to move onto that square but hold down the button. It will show you your % chance of victory. While I have lost battles where I had a 98% chance (probably due to some lucky first strikes), it has been a fairly good indicator of may chances.

[Moggy123]

Or press the ALT key while the attacking unit is selected and the cursor is over the potential target.

[Kraken]

Speaking as a former game project manager and wannabe-designer...CIV is a work of art. I'm in awe of Soren's design. I almost had, but chose not to pursue, the opportunity to move to Baltimore to work on that game. Seeing how it turned out, I wonder if I should've gone after that job more aggressively instead of being relieved when they didn't offer it. In fact, add this to my post in the 'regrets' thread.

Civ3 got good with the Conquests expansion plus the Rise & Rule mod. If you're a grognard, it's got a lot of depth just from the sheer number of elements. But I can't imagine myself ever going back to 3 after the wonder that is CIV.

[Kraken]

Coop, when attacking, right click like you are going to move onto that square but hold down the button. It will show you your % chance of victory. While I have lost battles where I had a 98% chance (probably due to some lucky first strikes), it has been a fairly good indicator of may chances.

That doesn't work very well for stack combat. I often win when the percentage is as low as 10-15 if I have a big enough Stack of Doom (r). I think the probability is only being reported for a single unit.

Your avatar creeps me out.

[coopasonic]

Coop,

For your next game, choose "custom" and then uncheck all vistory conditions accept conquest. Then you'll have to get aggressive!

I'm not sure I'm ready to go that far.

I played another game on chieftain last night and eliminated a couple of opponents and snagged a space race victory around 1994. The funny thing I noticed in the final stats, I only built 3 cities, the other 10 were all captures.

On the downside, i declared war on Rome in the first 10 turns when I first encountered them... I didn't even have a catapult hehe, that war continued for about 4000 years.

Note to self, army first, war second.

[The Meal]

Speaking as a former game project manager and wannabe-designer...CIV is a work of art. I'm in awe of Soren's design.

Eight pages. That ought to be enough for some conclusions. Save a guy a lot of reading: What's the bottom line on this game?

This may displace SMAC as my game of choice.

Philosophically, Soren came in and *blasted* the un-fun vestigal out of the game, and shamelessly brought in fun elements from other games. I'm still trying to get a feel for how well it all integrates for all the various situations you can put the game through, the relatively middle-of-the-road games I've played have been *a blast*.

Recommended. I believe my last three release day purchases have been Daggerfall, Wizardry 8, and Temple of Elemental Evil. cIV would appear to be the game on that list which is unlike the others.

~Neal