Octopus Overlords

em2nought wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:14 am So, without giving anything away, better than Dune from 1984, worse, or just different?

Daveman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:32 am Saw it Saturday and really enjoyed it. Detailed thoughts below...

Spoiler:

I generally liked the changes (shifts in focus might be a better term?) made to the story. Making Jessica sort of Lady Macbeth was the most jarring change to me but I like what they did. Her conversations with Alia were a nice touch.

I wanted more scenes with the Emperor or the Imperial court, especially the Spacing Guild. I wished they would have shown a little more of the Harkonnens and everyone else wondering where this Muad'dib came from and then shocked to learn it's Paul. Instead I think all we really got of that was Irulan making what I thought was quite a leap of logic and simply stating that he's likely Paul.

There are really only two things I didn't like that stuck out to me.

1. At the start of the film we know Jessica is recently pregnant, maybe a month or two in? By the end of the film she still hasn't given birth, unlike the book. That means everything in the film happened in ~7 months? Maybe I was just expecting to see Alia born? I know all that really matters is that time passes and Paul becomes Fremen but it felt rushed in that light. It also makes the change in Gurney stand out in that short a time to me.

2. So at the very end, Paul has deposed the Emperor and told the Landsraad he's in charge now. They reply "lol no". We then get a montage of the Fremen *at that very moment* doing their best Leeroy Jenkins impression and piling into transports and off into space?

Isn't there an armada over the planet? Shouldn't there be some naval battle which I assume the Fremen have little or no experience with? Don't they need to have some sort of plan before invading the rest of the galaxy? Arrange transport with the Spacing Guild, etc.?

em2nought wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:14 am So, without giving anything away, better than Dune from 1984, worse, or just different?

Jaymann wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:50 pm

em2nought wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:14 am So, without giving anything away, better than Dune from 1984, worse, or just different?

I was led to believe there would be Sting. Effing ripoff.

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:09 pm It helps that Colbert is such a consummate SF nerd.

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 8:50 am I’m fascinated by the fact that Alexander Skarsgård speaks English with an American accent, while Rebecca Ferguson uses an English accent. Is it because they learned English in the country whose accent they use? Is it an affectation? And I wonder why Alexander’s father Stellan still has a Swedish accent? He’s been acting in American films for much longer than either.

raydude wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 11:48 am Just wanted to point out that NASA uses the SPICE to navigate to other planets.

Hrdina wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:33 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:09 pm It helps that Colbert is such a consummate SF nerd.

I think Colbert's improv instincts kicked in, and he just followed her lead through that entire interview.

I should have known that with a name like "Ferguson" she was Swedish.

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:41 pm

Hrdina wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:33 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:09 pm It helps that Colbert is such a consummate SF nerd.

I think Colbert's improv instincts kicked in, and he just followed her lead through that entire interview.

I should have known that with a name like "Ferguson" she was Swedish.

Ferguson isn't a common Swedish name though. I think it's her father's name (who is British or Irish).

gilraen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:48 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:41 pm

Hrdina wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:33 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 4:09 pm It helps that Colbert is such a consummate SF nerd.

I think Colbert's improv instincts kicked in, and he just followed her lead through that entire interview.

I should have known that with a name like "Ferguson" she was Swedish.

Ferguson isn't a common Swedish name though. I think it's her father's name (who is British or Irish).

I think it's the other way around, that's her mother's name, and it's her father who's Swedish.

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:28 pm Stellan is older. The older generation is often less fluent in English (proficient, but with an accent) or just don't bother trying to emulate foreign accents. He only moved to America in his thirties. Also, he's been bringing his kids to wherever he went in the world, including to America. But frankly, I think he just doesn't give a damn.

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:53 pm I saw it this weekend. A very, very good blockbuster kind of movie. Now the wait for Dune 3: Messiah begins (although that might become a disappointment to non-book fans, knowing the story there).

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 2:22 pm
But IIRC ‘the turn’ pissed off a lot of the previous book readers as well (not me, I loved it).

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 2:22 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:53 pm I saw it this weekend. A very, very good blockbuster kind of movie. Now the wait for Dune 3: Messiah begins (although that might become a disappointment to non-book fans, knowing the story there).

That’s exactly what I warned my family about last night (none have read the books). “You’re probably going to hate the next movie”.

But IIRC ‘the turn’ pissed off a lot of the previous book readers as well (not me, I loved it).

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 4:41 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 2:22 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:53 pm I saw it this weekend. A very, very good blockbuster kind of movie. Now the wait for Dune 3: Messiah begins (although that might become a disappointment to non-book fans, knowing the story there).

That’s exactly what I warned my family about last night (none have read the books). “You’re probably going to hate the next movie”.

But IIRC ‘the turn’ pissed off a lot of the previous book readers as well (not me, I loved it).

Denis has said for a while that he thinks Messiah could make a good movie, and apparently he's already working on the script. A movie adaptation of Messiah could be decent in my opinion, if Denis does some of the following:

Spoiler:

- Cut a LOT of the weird stuff (Distrans dwarf, contraceptives subplot, Face dancer, Tleilaxu, Third stage guild navigator). While it tears my heart out, I think all those things are just gonna make the film silly.
- Cut a couple of factions from the assassination plot (cut Tleilaxu and Spacing Guild) and makes it wholly Bene Gesserit-driven (= a single well-known, well-defined villain faction, rather than the all-out mess of factions co-conspiring, which is just gonna be confusing to audiences).
- Cut the Bene Tleilax and make the Duncan ghola a Bene Gesserit "gift" (an attempt by them to regain control over Paul).
- I haven't read it but there's a new character in the book "Paul of Dune": Marie Fenring, the child of Margot Fenring and Feyd, who tries to assassinate Paul but is stopped by Alia. This would be a great way to give Alia more to do.
- Make Chani a friend of Korba. While Chani opposes Paul's rule, Chani doesn't want Paul dead, so she decides to cut ties with Korba and travel to Arakeen to warn Paul even though they haven't spoken for more than a decade. While in Arrakeen, Chani witnesses all the horrible splendor of Paul's palace. They meet and fall in love again, and share a night of passion.
- Make the story a kind of redemption-attempt for Paul. Atrocities have been committed, now Paul wants to stop the holy war, combat the corruption and make peace with Chani. Which he does, even though it's too late to stop the stone burner attack that takes his eyes.
- End of the film: Chani does not die but discovers she's pregnant (changed from the book - because time-jumps and birth scenes are poison to film adaptations), Paul instead abdicates and leaves for the deep desert, leaving Chani with Alia and Duncan in charge to right all wrongs.

So basically, the film would be a political thriller with threats and intrigues coming from all around, while Paul tries to stop the wars and regain Chani's trust, with the help of Stilgar, Gurney and Alia (and Duncan, and Chani, once she's come around).

But even so, it's not going to be a war movie with cool sandworm and sword battles. So general audiences expecting an epic Star Wars-like story conclusion are going to find it disappointing, regardless.

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 3:55 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 2:22 pm
But IIRC ‘the turn’ pissed off a lot of the previous book readers as well (not me, I loved it).

Herbert actually wrote Dune Messiah because so many people were misinterpreting the first book. "Let me spell it out for you..."

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 4:41 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 2:22 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:53 pm I saw it this weekend. A very, very good blockbuster kind of movie. Now the wait for Dune 3: Messiah begins (although that might become a disappointment to non-book fans, knowing the story there).

That’s exactly what I warned my family about last night (none have read the books). “You’re probably going to hate the next movie”.

But IIRC ‘the turn’ pissed off a lot of the previous book readers as well (not me, I loved it).

Denis has said for a while that he thinks Messiah could make a good movie, and apparently he's already working on the script. A movie adaptation of Messiah could be decent in my opinion, if Denis does some of the following:

Spoiler:

- Cut a LOT of the weird stuff (Distrans dwarf, contraceptives subplot, Face dancer, Tleilaxu, Third stage guild navigator). While it tears my heart out, I think all those things are just gonna make the film silly.
- Cut a couple of factions from the assassination plot (cut Tleilaxu and Spacing Guild) and makes it wholly Bene Gesserit-driven (= a single well-known, well-defined villain faction, rather than the all-out mess of factions co-conspiring, which is just gonna be confusing to audiences).
- Cut the Bene Tleilax and make the Duncan ghola a Bene Gesserit "gift" (an attempt by them to regain control over Paul).
- I haven't read it but there's a new character in the book "Paul of Dune": Marie Fenring, the child of Margot Fenring and Feyd, who tries to assassinate Paul but is stopped by Alia. This would be a great way to give Alia more to do.
- Make Chani a friend of Korba. While Chani opposes Paul's rule, Chani doesn't want Paul dead, so she decides to cut ties with Korba and travel to Arakeen to warn Paul even though they haven't spoken for more than a decade. While in Arrakeen, Chani witnesses all the horrible splendor of Paul's palace. They meet and fall in love again, and share a night of passion.
- Make the story a kind of redemption-attempt for Paul. Atrocities have been committed, now Paul wants to stop the holy war, combat the corruption and make peace with Chani. Which he does, even though it's too late to stop the stone burner attack that takes his eyes.
- End of the film: Chani does not die but discovers she's pregnant (changed from the book - because time-jumps and birth scenes are poison to film adaptations), Paul instead abdicates and leaves for the deep desert, leaving Chani with Alia and Duncan in charge to right all wrongs.

So basically, the film would be a political thriller with threats and intrigues coming from all around, while Paul tries to stop the wars and regain Chani's trust, with the help of Stilgar, Gurney and Alia (and Duncan, and Chani, once she's come around).

But even so, it's not going to be a war movie with cool sandworm and sword battles. So general audiences expecting an epic Star Wars-like story conclusion are going to find it disappointing, regardless.

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 5:29 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 4:41 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 2:22 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2024 1:53 pm I saw it this weekend. A very, very good blockbuster kind of movie. Now the wait for Dune 3: Messiah begins (although that might become a disappointment to non-book fans, knowing the story there).

That’s exactly what I warned my family about last night (none have read the books). “You’re probably going to hate the next movie”.

But IIRC ‘the turn’ pissed off a lot of the previous book readers as well (not me, I loved it).

Denis has said for a while that he thinks Messiah could make a good movie, and apparently he's already working on the script. A movie adaptation of Messiah could be decent in my opinion, if Denis does some of the following:

Spoiler:

- Cut a LOT of the weird stuff (Distrans dwarf, contraceptives subplot, Face dancer, Tleilaxu, Third stage guild navigator). While it tears my heart out, I think all those things are just gonna make the film silly.
- Cut a couple of factions from the assassination plot (cut Tleilaxu and Spacing Guild) and makes it wholly Bene Gesserit-driven (= a single well-known, well-defined villain faction, rather than the all-out mess of factions co-conspiring, which is just gonna be confusing to audiences).
- Cut the Bene Tleilax and make the Duncan ghola a Bene Gesserit "gift" (an attempt by them to regain control over Paul).
- I haven't read it but there's a new character in the book "Paul of Dune": Marie Fenring, the child of Margot Fenring and Feyd, who tries to assassinate Paul but is stopped by Alia. This would be a great way to give Alia more to do.
- Make Chani a friend of Korba. While Chani opposes Paul's rule, Chani doesn't want Paul dead, so she decides to cut ties with Korba and travel to Arakeen to warn Paul even though they haven't spoken for more than a decade. While in Arrakeen, Chani witnesses all the horrible splendor of Paul's palace. They meet and fall in love again, and share a night of passion.
- Make the story a kind of redemption-attempt for Paul. Atrocities have been committed, now Paul wants to stop the holy war, combat the corruption and make peace with Chani. Which he does, even though it's too late to stop the stone burner attack that takes his eyes.
- End of the film: Chani does not die but discovers she's pregnant (changed from the book - because time-jumps and birth scenes are poison to film adaptations), Paul instead abdicates and leaves for the deep desert, leaving Chani with Alia and Duncan in charge to right all wrongs.

So basically, the film would be a political thriller with threats and intrigues coming from all around, while Paul tries to stop the wars and regain Chani's trust, with the help of Stilgar, Gurney and Alia (and Duncan, and Chani, once she's come around).

But even so, it's not going to be a war movie with cool sandworm and sword battles. So general audiences expecting an epic Star Wars-like story conclusion are going to find it disappointing, regardless.

Interesting ideas, but it wouldn't be DUNE MESSIAH at all.

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:43 pmCase in point: Some book nerds seem to think Lady Jessica is too misty-eyed and emotional in Villeneuve's Dune Part 1 adaptation. Well let me tell you that the change to Jessica made absolute sense to me, because they made her serve as the protagonist of the movie alongside Paul. Had she not been the emotional outlet of the audience we would have been stuck with two aloof, serious, frowny characters for over two hours and the movie would almost certainly have been panned by audiences and critics alike. And deservedly so. That movie desperately needed some heart, and they decided to make Jessica the vehicle for that.

Now, could you have made another choice than to make Jessica a lead character? Yes. But since they did, that change made perfect sense to me.

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:11 pm

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:43 pmCase in point: Some book nerds seem to think Lady Jessica is too misty-eyed and emotional in Villeneuve's Dune Part 1 adaptation. Well let me tell you that the change to Jessica made absolute sense to me, because they made her serve as the protagonist of the movie alongside Paul. Had she not been the emotional outlet of the audience we would have been stuck with two aloof, serious, frowny characters for over two hours and the movie would almost certainly have been panned by audiences and critics alike. And deservedly so. That movie desperately needed some heart, and they decided to make Jessica the vehicle for that.

Now, could you have made another choice than to make Jessica a lead character? Yes. But since they did, that change made perfect sense to me.

To add: I think Villeneuve could have made Dune into 3 movies instead of 2, and it would have worked a bit better on the whole.

As it stands, I think Messiah is going to be a tough script to sell.

Lagom Lite wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:11 pm To add: I think Villeneuve could have made Dune into 3 movies instead of 2, and it would have worked a bit better on the whole.

First movie should have ended with the Harkonnen attack and the death of Leto. The whole movie could have had a spotlight on Paul's relationship to his father instead of his mother. I think following their relationship and the heartbreaking conclusion at the end of the movie had made for a better film than Dune part 1. Villeneuve could have spent more time on Yueh and the Thufir investigations into the traitor, and the Thufir-Jessica interaction from the novel. Also, the dinner scene. Also, Liet Kynes dying visions of his father. And mentats (a tiny bit, but don't overdo it like Lynch did).

Second movie would have been all about the Fremen. Meeting their culture and integrating into it. Basically the last part of the first movie and the first hour and a half of the second. Paul falls in love with Chani and wrestles with his disturbing visions.

Third movie Paul would be the Kwisatz Haderach, so showdown with the emperor and Harkonnen. Revenge, fanaticism, betrayal and epic conclusion.

I feel like Denis could then have left the Duniverse for a while, and made Messiah into the beginning of a Messiah-Children trilogy instead in a decade or so, maybe even into God-Emperor as a finisher.

As it stands, I think Messiah is going to be a tough script to sell.

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:39 pm Villeneuve knows how to make smart, sharp, cerebral movies. He has taken on DUNE and DUNE MESSIAH because he wants to do that with these stories. I think we can be comfortable letting him do it.