Game of Thrones - House of the Dragon [HBO]

[hepcat]

Oh man, that one even has the new Firestone White Walker whitewalls

Imagine if DAEMON was driving one of those bad boys during that joust scene.



Peddle to the metal, knave!

[ImLawBoy]

wondering why in real life, we went from muskets to laser guided rockets in 200 years, but the furthest Westeros has advanced in that same time frame is 2 foot long swords...to 3 foot long swords.

In real life, how far did human technology advance in the thousands of years prior to the last 200 years?

I'm with hepcat on this one. It's a legit (and not uncommon) complaint about the GRR Martin universe that technology has barely moved in the thousands of years of history that he's covered in one form or another.

That's all well and good, but we weren't talking about a span of thousands of years in GRRM's books, we were talking about the couple of centuries between the settings of the two shows. It isn't ridiculous for technology to advance at a relative snail's pace in a pre-industrial society over a couple of hundred years. That's the way it's been in the real world for most of human history.

But what it does is indicate a society where technology is completely stalled, and it shows that it is not just relative to the 200 years between HoD and GoT. Compare, for a moment, to The Sandman and the Hob storyline. Between his introduction and the second meeting 100 years later, they were still living in relative squalor, but they had things like chimneys to clear the smoke out of their homes and taverns. The point there was that Hob was seeing all kinds of changes, even in a pre-industrial revolution world. We get none of that in GRRM's world, regardless of whether you pick the period between HoD and GoT or the entirety of that world's history. Ultimately it doesn't have a big impact on the story so it doesn't really bother me. It's a legit criticism, though.

I finally watched ep1 last night. It felt good to visit Westeros again, but in the it felt like nothing really happened.

Comparisons to the first episode of the original GoT are probably unfair, but still... think of everything the s1e1 of that series delivered:

It gave us a *ton* of worldmaking, including the seven kingdoms, the white walkers, the Wall, the Night's Watch, and various customs and lore ("He who passes sentence should swing the sword," etc)

I think it's really unfair to compare the two. HoD didn't need to do worldbuilding - the world was already built by GoT and now they're just filling in some of the details. Also, some of that worldbuilding in the first GoT was pretty bare bones and was greatly filled in by the rest of the series. The first episode of HoD has planted a number of seeds that, in retrospect, may end up feeling like there was a lot of worldbuilding (worldexpansion?) when the series wraps up.

More than that, it established a whole set of varied and rich characters and (especially) their relationships:
Ned and Cat
Ned and Robert
All the distinct Stark children
Jamie and Cersei
Jamie and Tyrion
Tyrion and Joffrey
The Hound and decency
and I'm probably forgetting some.

Spoiler:

Meanwhile, HotD e1 gave us a mediocre King, a bad Prince, and a (presumably) good Princess. Everyone else was essentially an extra. The plot was simply that the bad Prince is bad, and naming his niece as heir makes him angry.

As for worldmaking, it was very clearly established that jousting and childbirth are both tough to survive in a medieval setting. That's about it.

Again, I don't think it's a fair comparison for a couple of reasons. First, we don't know how much these characters who were given cursory introductions in the first episode will end up being important down the road, just like we didn't know after the first episode of GoT. Time will tell. Second, if my understanding of the story is correct, we're likely to end up speeding through history for the first few episodes, so spending a lot of time on the relationships of temporally fleeting characters won't have much of a payoff if we're at 150 years later by episode 4.

[msteelers]

Spoiler:

Meanwhile, HotD e1 gave us a mediocre King, a bad Prince, and a (presumably) good Princess. Everyone else was essentially an extra. The plot was simply that the bad Prince is bad, and naming his niece as heir makes him angry.

I don't think any of the characters are all good or all bad, and that plot summary is way too simplified.

Spoiler:

I didn't get a "good" vibe from the princess, not in the traditional sense at least. Meanwhile, the "bad" prince had a handful of moments that stood out to me:

He cares for his niece. Because this is Game of Thrones and the Targaryens have a thing for incest, I assume that relationship isn't very pure. But it's clear he cares about her.

During the funeral, he urged his niece to be there for his father, saying he needs her.

He didn't seem to be in a very celebratory mood at the brothel that night. He was seemingly mourning alone in the corner, and it was everyone else celebrating his status as heir.

During the argument with the king, he was upset that his brother never named him Hand of the King.

He's definitely not a saint, but I don't think they are going for the mustache-twirling bad guy either.

As for the plot, it established several new characters and relationships, lets us know that the world is a powder-keg ready to explode with violence, and sets the stage for the conflicts ahead. What more do you want from a pilot episode?

[hepcat]

But what it does is indicate a society where technology is completely stalled,

The more I think about this, the more egregious I find it. I mean, they're not cavemen. In that scenario I could see stagnation at that level since they wouldn't have much exposure to other cultures. But it has been established that these people have a very healthy land and sea trade system with other regions. That there would be zero cultural or technological change over the course of 200 years in light of that is ridiculous.

He's definitely not a saint, but I don't think they are going for the mustache-twirling bad guy either.

He's not Skeletor, but he's Skeletor adjacent.

As for the plot, it established several new characters and relationships, lets us know that the world is a powder-keg ready to explode with violence, and sets the stage for the conflicts ahead. What more do you want from a pilot episode?

Some nuance would have been nice.

[ImLawBoy]

But what it does is indicate a society where technology is completely stalled,

The more I think about this, the more egregious I find it. I mean, they're not cavemen. In that scenario I could see stagnation at that level since they wouldn't have much exposure to other cultures. But it has been established that these people have a very healthy land and sea trade system with other regions. That there would be zero cultural or technological change over the course of 200 years in light of that is ridiculous.

The explanation that I've seen for this is that the existence of magic in the universe has stalled technological developments, but I don't really find it that convincing. Magic is fairly rare in GRRM's world, and it seems to stretch credibility to suggest that there would be no advancement at all because somewhere in some castle there's someone who has a bit of magic to them.

I really think that GRRM either forgot to account for technology or he just decided he didn't want to deal with it because the story he wants to tell happens to stretch over a long period of time but in a static world. Either way, I just accept it and move on.

[hepcat]

The explanation that I've seen for this is that the existence of magic in the universe has stalled technological developments, but I don't really find it that convincing. Magic is fairly rare in GRRM's world, and it seems to stretch credibility to suggest that there would be no advancement at all because somewhere in some castle there's someone who has a bit of magic to them.

Now, if we were talking matter replicators and holo decks, I would have no problem whatsoever with a civilization staying at that tech level for a long time. I mean, if I can get a reuben by just yelling "Future Alexa, sammich me" I would just assume I've gone as far as I need, technologically speaking.

[Smoove_B]

I said it earlier. It's not magic, it's dragons. What are you going to develop that deals with an enemy that can use dragons? Different style swords? A trebuchet that's bigger? A more efficient way to blacksmith spears? None of it matters because those dragons swoop in and burn everything.

What type of architectural developments would be encouraged when all your enemy needs to do is rain down fire from the skies? No, here it's better to just keep on doing what you're doing and hope you don't anger the dragon people.

[ImLawBoy]

I said it earlier. It's not magic, it's dragons. What are you going to develop that deals with an enemy that can use dragons? Different style swords? A trebuchet that's bigger? A more efficient way to blacksmith spears? None of it matters because those dragons swoop in and burn everything.

According to GoT, giant crossbows should do the trick.

Regardless, just like there isn't that much magic in GRRM's world, there aren't that many dragons by this point either. There's still plenty of army-to-army conflict (I assume) when the houses go to war - you just better be damn sure you don't go to war with House Targaryen.

[hepcat]

Mecha Dragons trump all.

As a general rule of thumb, mecha <anything> should be the end goal.

[Carpet_pissr]

And I legit thought I was the biggest ‘over-thinker’ here!

Of all the potential criticisms I expected to find in this thread (or any thread about any show with a spin-off for that matter), ‘lack of sufficient technological advancement in an expected amount of fake time’ was not on my bingo card.

[El Guapo]

Spoiler:

Meanwhile, HotD e1 gave us a mediocre King, a bad Prince, and a (presumably) good Princess. Everyone else was essentially an extra. The plot was simply that the bad Prince is bad, and naming his niece as heir makes him angry.

I don't think any of the characters are all good or all bad, and that plot summary is way too simplified.

Spoiler:

I didn't get a "good" vibe from the princess, not in the traditional sense at least. Meanwhile, the "bad" prince had a handful of moments that stood out to me:

He cares for his niece. Because this is Game of Thrones and the Targaryens have a thing for incest, I assume that relationship isn't very pure. But it's clear he cares about her.

During the funeral, he urged his niece to be there for his father, saying he needs her.

He didn't seem to be in a very celebratory mood at the brothel that night. He was seemingly mourning alone in the corner, and it was everyone else celebrating his status as heir.

During the argument with the king, he was upset that his brother never named him Hand of the King.

He's definitely not a saint, but I don't think they are going for the mustache-twirling bad guy either.

As for the plot, it established several new characters and relationships, lets us know that the world is a powder-keg ready to explode with violence, and sets the stage for the conflicts ahead. What more do you want from a pilot episode?

Yeah I agree with this. And you can definitely make a case for Daemon.

Spoiler:

Among other things, he's the lawful heir under a precedent that was clearly set when his brother became king. Now after benefiting from that precedent, he's going to blithely toss it aside when it inconveniences him?
On top of that his brother is disregarding the precedent set by a council of lords, and doing so on his own say so, and doing so at a time when he's emotional and probably not thinking straight. Viserys is being both selfish and reckless.

I will say that all things considered it'd be better if a lot of this stuff was stretched out a little bit over more episodes. Like you get a sense of the Viserys - Daemon relationship, but their breaking apart would have more import if there relationship had firmer ground. But of course, without knowing the arch of the overall plot it's hard to say whether the decision to do this all in one episode was necessary or not.

[hepcat]

And I legit thought I was the biggest ‘over-thinker’ here!

Of all the potential criticisms I expected to find in this thread (or any thread about any show with a spin-off for that matter), ‘lack of sufficient technological advancement in an expected amount of fake time’ was not on my bingo card.

But my criticism of the "weirdly fast sex thrusts with the female version of Little Finger" was?

...yeah...don't answer that. Of course it was.

[hepcat]

Spoiler:

Meanwhile, HotD e1 gave us a mediocre King, a bad Prince, and a (presumably) good Princess. Everyone else was essentially an extra. The plot was simply that the bad Prince is bad, and naming his niece as heir makes him angry.

I don't think any of the characters are all good or all bad, and that plot summary is way too simplified.

Spoiler:

I didn't get a "good" vibe from the princess, not in the traditional sense at least. Meanwhile, the "bad" prince had a handful of moments that stood out to me:

He cares for his niece. Because this is Game of Thrones and the Targaryens have a thing for incest, I assume that relationship isn't very pure. But it's clear he cares about her.

During the funeral, he urged his niece to be there for his father, saying he needs her.

He didn't seem to be in a very celebratory mood at the brothel that night. He was seemingly mourning alone in the corner, and it was everyone else celebrating his status as heir.

During the argument with the king, he was upset that his brother never named him Hand of the King.

He's definitely not a saint, but I don't think they are going for the mustache-twirling bad guy either.

As for the plot, it established several new characters and relationships, lets us know that the world is a powder-keg ready to explode with violence, and sets the stage for the conflicts ahead. What more do you want from a pilot episode?

Yeah I agree with this. And you can definitely make a case for Daemon.

Spoiler:

Among other things, he's the lawful heir under a precedent that was clearly set when his brother became king. Now after benefiting from that precedent, he's going to blithely toss it aside when it inconveniences him?
On top of that his brother is disregarding the precedent set by a council of lords, and doing so on his own say so, and doing so at a time when he's emotional and probably not thinking straight. Viserys is being both selfish and reckless.

I will say that all things considered it'd be better if a lot of this stuff was stretched out a little bit over more episodes. Like you get a sense of the Viserys - Daemon relationship, but their breaking apart would have more import if there relationship had firmer ground. But of course, without knowing the arch of the overall plot it's hard to say whether the decision to do this all in one episode was necessary or not.

I do see a mustache twirling bad guy though. He's a two dimensional Snidely Whiplash about to tie the King to the train tracks. Just because he shows a fleeting moment of compassion that may or may not be based on a Barry White moment with his niece, or expresses rage/anger/sadness that he's not taken seriously by his brother because he won't give him POWER isn't exactly convincing me otherwise. He's pure ego and rage without any nuance at this point beyond a momentary display of rudimentary humanity that is being mistaken for depth of character. That's just boring to me.

That being said, it's still just one episode in. What would be great is if they pulled back the camera a bit on DAEMON and showed us more of what motivates him beyond potentially wanting to Targaryen his neice, then sit on the Gillette Double Blade Razor throne (seriously people, add padding to that thing...you MUST have advanced far enough to develop decent blanket technology by now).

What I want in HoD is a moment like this:

Spoiler:

That one scene defined Dinklage's character as far more than just a drunken fool. Up until that moment, he was a character we thought of as a debauched, one note smartass. The comic relief of the show. After that speech? Not so much. That's the caliber of writing I want.

...then I want Lady Lyanna Mormont to travel back in time, kick everyone's ass and take over.

[Carpet_pissr]

And I legit thought I was the biggest ‘over-thinker’ here!

Of all the potential criticisms I expected to find in this thread (or any thread about any show with a spin-off for that matter), ‘lack of sufficient technological advancement in an expected amount of fake time’ was not on my bingo card.

But my criticism of the "weirdly fast sex thrusts with the female version of Little Finger" was?

...yeah...don't answer that. Of course it was.

One of my biggest weaknesses is the tendency to give a pass to anything that is sufficiently funny.

[Jaymann]

Hey, by the time of GOT they had advanced stealth technology that allowed them to eliminate the white walkers with a single leap.

[ImLawBoy]

That being said, it's still just one episode in.

This is what's puzzling me a bit. It's just one episode in, but your posts make it sound like you think it's already doomed, even if you're willing to give it a chance to redeem itself. That's particularly odd to me given the pedigree of GoT, including the involvement of GRRM and some of the same folks from the original series (like directors and such). Why the assumption that they've made one-note characters without any depth instead of giving it the benefit of the doubt that the camera will pull back to reveal nuance? That's what they did with the original series, why are you assuming they won't do it here? And maybe it's not your intent to come off that way, but that's how your posting is reading to me.

And for what it's worth, I happily watched Con-Air in its entirety on hospital TV after getting a cancer diagnosis!

[hepcat]

Most of my responses in that context are to those who are trying to say that the character had any depth in that first episode though.

And like I point out, the first episode of GoT did a pretty damn good job of fleshing out at least some of their characters. I didn't feel like HoD made that effort for anyone though. It felt like a by the numbers money grab that is relying on brand loyalty to justify its existence.

My stating that the show might get better and that I realize it's still early shouldn't be viewed as my accepting the lazy writing I saw in that first episode, though. Why can't I want a show to be good right out of the gate? Especially one that is set in the same universe that had the entire world glued to their TV each week at one point?

I want it to get better though. I'm rooting for it to get better. I want another Peter Dinklage out of this. But I think we have to call out the crap when it's given to us in order to get the chef back into the kitchen to make something delicious.

"Why couldn't you just put the Bunny back in the box?"

...also....cancer?!?!? Was this mentioned here?!?!? Are you okay?!?!?! Am I THAT horrible of a friend that I didn't even notice you mention it!?!?!

[ImLawBoy]

It's been ages since I've seen it, but I'm guessing that the first episode of GoT didn't have quite as much nuance for the bad guys as you remember. Jaime and Cersei certainly didn't have any nuance or subtlety. And let's face it, Ned was pretty one-note throughout the entire first season - he was a goody-goody who followed the rules, consequences be damned. I get a bit stuck on this, but I think that people sometimes hold sequels to standards that the original didn't meet (see much Star Wars criticism). In retrospect it feels like there was a lot more depth to the first episode of GoT because we saw the next 8 seasons play out and imbue meaning into some of the introductions and interactions of the first episode.

And now I want to see ConDragon where the plane is full of dragons and Targaryens being transported from one dragon training pit to the next, except for one lone Stark with a silver wig trying to bring a stuffed direwolf to his estranged daughter . . . .

[ImLawBoy]

...also....cancer?!?!? Was this mentioned here?!?!? Are you okay?!?!?! Am I THAT horrible of a friend that I didn't even notice you mention it!?!?!

Someone doesn't read the Old Guy/Health Problems thread.

Short version: colon cancer, stage 2, took out 1/3 of my colon (but I don't miss it), everything looks clear so far and I'm cancer-free at this time, make sure you get your colonoscopy.

[El Guapo]

I bet the showrunners are going to hastily pull back the remaining episodes and do some reshoots now that they know that they should add character development.

[gbasden]

We aren't talking about a snail's pace. We're talking no pace. At all. As I said before, they even wear the same styles of clothing.

In our middle ages, clothing styles effectively stayed the same for hundreds of years.

https://bellatory.com/fashion-industry/ ... 400-900-CE

[El Guapo]

Hepcat's going to feel real silly when episode 3 features Bran as the Three Eyed Raven traveling between the peasant's houses of the Targaryan era and his present day and then doing a comparative technological analysis.

[hepcat]

...also....cancer?!?!? Was this mentioned here?!?!? Are you okay?!?!?! Am I THAT horrible of a friend that I didn't even notice you mention it!?!?!

Someone doesn't read the Old Guy/Health Problems thread.

Short version: colon cancer, stage 2, took out 1/3 of my colon (but I don't miss it), everything looks clear so far and I'm cancer-free at this time, make sure you get your colonoscopy.

Well, I'm glad you're okay. I'll need to check in on you folks in that thread from time to time. I had my colonoscopy at 50, so I'm probably due for another soon. I remember being just on the verge of going under during that one and telling the doctor it was his lucky day as I was going to let him keep whatever he found. He glared at me with a look that seemed to say, "I was going in with one finger, now I'm double fisting". My hyperventilating at that point only hastened my passing out.

I bet the showrunners are going to hastily pull back the remaining episodes and do some reshoots now that they know that they should add character development.

Remember that break in the final season of Better Call Saul, pal? Yeah...that's right. You're welcome. If it weren't for me, you'd have closed out the series with a talking labradoodle named "Barking Bobby" that only Saul could hear.

We aren't talking about a snail's pace. We're talking no pace. At all. As I said before, they even wear the same styles of clothing.

In our middle ages, clothing styles effectively stayed the same for hundreds of years.

https://bellatory.com/fashion-industry/ ... 400-900-CE

There were still changes in style, albeit slight. Materials not changing is what most of that article refers to. In Hod/GoT there is literally NO change in style whatsoever. If I show you a still of two nobleman in HoD and then from GoT, you probably wouldn't be able to tell they're from two different eras. I'm betting the same can't be said for even the slowest periods in our history in the same context and time frame. But that's just one aspect of the stagnation that I felt was a little unbelievable. The bigger one being the lack of any discernible technological advancement.

[hepcat]

Hepcat's going to feel real silly when episode 3 features Bran as the Three Eyed Raven traveling between the peasant's houses of the Targaryan era and his present day and then doing a comparative technological analysis.

I've already requested they delay the third episode after I saw a suspicious looking labradoodle in a preview.

[Holman]

It's been ages since I've seen it, but I'm guessing that the first episode of GoT didn't have quite as much nuance for the bad guys as you remember. Jaime and Cersei certainly didn't have any nuance or subtlety. And let's face it, Ned was pretty one-note throughout the entire first season - he was a goody-goody who followed the rules, consequences be damned. I get a bit stuck on this, but I think that people sometimes hold sequels to standards that the original didn't meet (see much Star Wars criticism). In retrospect it feels like there was a lot more depth to the first episode of GoT because we saw the next 8 seasons play out and imbue meaning into some of the introductions and interactions of the first episode.

My earlier point was that even just the first episode of GoT established a *web of relationships* far more complex than anything we got in HotD.

By the end of GoT ep1 we know:

-Ned and Robert have a complicated history as past brothers in arms
-Robert is still hung up on Ned's dead sister, and that the war was partially about this
-All of the Stark brood have distinct and well-established personalities, and they think different things about each other
-Bran is special in some way
-Jon is not only a bastard but also hated by Cate
-The death of Jon Arryn means something not only for Robert's court but for Ned and Cate
-The Lannisters and the Starks have entirely different family cultures
-The Starks have a special relationship to whatever is going on beyond the Wall
-The Hound is nasty but enigmatic, and he has some unique connection with Tyrion
-Tyrion is in the most complex position of them all, and he uses it to comment on others and the world
-Jaime and Cersei are fucking

That's a *lot* of character complexity established in a single episode. There are at least a dozen individuals who emerge as distinct personalities about whom we know specific, compelling details. HotD has maybe five.

[ImLawBoy]

I don't think we're going to agree on this, but I still think the comparison to the first episode of GoT is a bad one, for a couple of potential reasons. First, I really don't think you can separate the knowledge you have of how those relationships evolved from how you might have felt after a first viewing of the first episode. If you were to just watch the first episode today without any knowledge of what might be coming (including any knowledge you might have from the books), would you still be identifying all of those items as critical? I suspect you'd hit on some of them, include some things that turned out to be unimportant, and miss on others. You just don't know what you'll look back on at the end of the season (or the series run) and say, "Wow, they really planted the seed for that in the first episode!"

Second, if this series really does advance through time rather quickly, does it even make sense to introduce so many potentially complex relationships for characters that will have died (from violence or old age) by the end of the first season? You'd end up with the show trying to stretch itself too thin to give each of those relationships coverage, and I suspect the end result would be very unsatisfactory. Maybe what I've read is wrong and these are the characters that will be around to the end, and maybe they didn't really plant any seeds for items that weren't obvious from the first episode. I'll be happy to agree with you then. Until then (or unless the show starts going off the rails in other directions), I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt that they know what they're doing.

[Holman]

I'm happy to amiably disagree.

I'm just putting down a first impression that this feels much thinner to me.

[Zaxxon]

Still haven't watched, so I'm mostly staying out of this thread. But surprising no one:

[Smoove_B]

I'm just putting down a first impression that this feels much thinner to me.

I think it's also a matter of scale. I agree the first episode of each show felt very, very different. For the original GoT it felt smaller (?) in that the story opened with two families having a friendly get together. For HOT D, we're already at a kingdom level scale from the get-go - the scale and scope immediately feels much larger as the fate of an entire kingdom is at stake from the start. That was the same for GoT S1 Ep1, but we didn't realize it yet.

So I think the "thinness" is related to the differences in scope of the starting point, imho.

[hepcat]

I just thought naming the brothers “King Nice-a-Lot” and “Prince Dastardly” was a bit much.

[El Guapo]

I just thought naming the brothers “King Nice-a-Lot” and “Prince Dastardly” was a bit much.

Unfortunately Snidely Whiplash was already taken.

Although you do know that Daemon is a real name that people use, right?

[Isgrimnur]

[hepcat]

I just thought naming the brothers “King Nice-a-Lot” and “Prince Dastardly” was a bit much.

Unfortunately Snidely Whiplash was already taken.

Although you do know that Daemon is a real name that people use, right?

Yes, I know. There’s been Daemon Hitler, Kim Daemon-Un, Daemon Lecter, Daemon Manson, Daemon Wayne Gacy, Daemon Guapo….it was pretty popular for a while.

[Carpet_pissr]

Somehow just now realizing this was a book. Wtf. When did he write it?! Going to be pissed if I find out he wrote it after Dance With Dragons…

…and checked out from library. Definitely want to read it before watching it.

[El Guapo]

I just thought naming the brothers “King Nice-a-Lot” and “Prince Dastardly” was a bit much.

Unfortunately Snidely Whiplash was already taken.

Although you do know that Daemon is a real name that people use, right?

Yes, I know. There’s been Daemon Hitler, Kim Daemon-Un, Daemon Lecter, Daemon Manson, Daemon Wayne Gacy, Daemon Guapo….it was pretty popular for a while.

Yeah, it's generally Damien or Damon in America. Unless you think Damon Wayans and Damien Lewis are evil???

[JCC]

It's a book written like a history book. That may not make reading it first preferable.

[hepcat]

Yeah, it's generally Damien or Damon in America. Unless you think Damon Wayans and Damien Lewis are evil???

...I'm thinking

[Jaymann]

After episode 2, I'm not sure if I can keep up with this breakneck pace.

[Smoove_B]

I mean...some pretty important things happened - at least in terms of setting up where this is all headed. And we saw the crab people and they were...horrific.

Overall it was an episode of creepy things.

[El Guapo]

After episode 2, I'm not sure if I can keep up with this breakneck pace.

It's funny, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. One thing I noticed is that the series seems to be using significant time jumps episode to episode which GoT did not, and catching people up on significant stuff with brief dialogue ("As you know you're brother seized Dragonstone and has been occupying it for six months...").