Cops behaving badly

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:25 pm

Zarathud wrote:Call me when Lincoln sexually gets shot.

Oh god, that's just...that's fantastic.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:52 pm

have instructed my officers to be vigilant, if threatened take appropriate action. If that means shoot a thug, then do it and answer for it while you are still alive not dead.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:53 am

It takes 9 cops to arrest a jaywalking teenager.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:09 pm

Moliere wrote:It takes 9 cops to arrest a jaywalking teenager.

That wasn't what I saw. When the video started, I saw a physically mature person holding on to a cop's weapon. The cop hit him, once, to get him to release it.

He then ordered the kid to turn around. The kid refused. The cop waited for backup. A bunch of cops showed up, but most didn't get directly involved. This tells me that the call for backup was likely made in a hurry, and the cops weren't sure what was going on, so they sent a strong response. This is normal. If you know a cop is having trouble, but he doesn't have time to tell you what that trouble is (say, if he needed his hands to retain his weapon), you send enough assistance to ensure that the situation can be handled regardless of what it is. You then remove the extra units. You never do it the other way around.

One cop went to assist the arresting officer. When they were trying to lay him down to arrest him, he continued to resist. At that point a couple of more cops (the arresting officer plus three - not nine) helped get the guy on the ground. This, again, isn't out of line. I've been in that spot. Two cops could certainly take him down without further help, but they would have been much more likely to injure him (IE - they'd have to joint lock him and slam him down.)

This anti-cop movement involves an awful lot of armchair quarterbacking.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:11 pm

While I'm loathe to label any attempt to call for accountability in our police force as an anti-cop movement, I do have to agree that that kid wasn't exactly an innocent victim of circumstance.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:28 pm

The calls for accountability, absolutely. The response to Rodney King level misconduct, absolutely.

I'm talking about the trend of taking any instance where someone videos a cop in a tough situation and, without having the slightest clue about what happened or why, immediately vilifies the cop.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:35 pm

He was JAYWALKING! At best the cop should tell him to stop jaywalking. It's a danger to the pedestrian and the cars. Have a nice day. Why is it escalating to batons and 9 cops? The kid looked scared of getting hit again. It seems pretty natural to grab the baton to avoid more strikes.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:45 pm

According to another article, the cop did tell him to stop jaywalking. The kid then turned around and yelled an obscenity at him and kept on walking in the bus lane. The video supposedly picks up after the kid repeatedly pushes the cop away from him when the cop tries to grab his arm to stop him.

I admit, 9 cops seems like overkill on the part of the cops...hell, two cops would've been overkill in my opinion, but I'm also hesitant to declare this an example of gross injustice until I see the whole thing.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:48 pm

Moliere wrote:He was JAYWALKING! At best the cop should tell him to stop jaywalking. It's a danger to the pedestrian and the cars. Have a nice day. Why is it escalating to batons and 9 cops? The kid looked scared of getting hit again. It seems pretty natural to grab the baton to avoid more strikes.

No matter the offense or even lack of one when you physically resist law enforcement you should expect that kind of response. The only thing I would even kinda question was striking the kid with the baton. As long as he wasn't fleeing, then best to wait for the assistance.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:52 pm

Rip wrote:No matter the offense or even lack of one when you physically resist law enforcement you should expect that kind of response.

Can we agree that it's nearly impossible to not physically resist when someone is hitting you with a baton?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:05 pm

I found the article I mentioned earlier that includes the police version of events. Take its veracity as you will.

The officer in question, who has not been named, told Mayfield to stop walking in a bus-only lane outside of the San Joaquin Regional Transit District station in Stockton, a city of about 301,000 in the Central Valley 50 miles south of Sacramento. But instead of obeying the order, Mayfield used “profane language, telling the officer he didn’t have to listen to him,” the spokesman said.

“The kid continued to walk in the lane, so the officer went over there to legally detain him, and at that time there was a scuffle,” Silva said. When the video starts, the officer is seen leaning on Mayfield and using his baton to keep his legs down.

Mayfield grabbed the baton during the scuffle, police said, and the officer appeared to strike him in the face with the weapon. “Officers are trained on weapon retention techniques for obvious safety reasons,” Silva said, adding that the video also shows the teen “holding onto” the baton. “As police officers, we cannot and will not let anyone take any of our weapons away, not only for our safety but for the safety of the general public.”

The officer radioed for backup and at least eight officers responded to the scene. Four are seen wrestling Mayfield to the ground by his wrists, while others attempted to cordon the scene off from a crowd that gathered at the bus station.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:27 pm

Assuming the article is correct (which is actually hard to assume, given so many instances where the cops' version turns out to be a fabrication) then I've got no problem with what happened.

While he may have technically been jaywalking, what he was actually doing was blocking a lane of traffic, and not temporarily. That's a stoning. Telling the cop to eff off and ignoring his instructions to get out of the street escalates things. That's a stoning.

Physically resisting being detained is again going to escalate things. Cops have no choice but to make you comply or simply allow their lawful authority to be ignored (which is a recipe for chaos). At which point hands are put on the detainee. Once that happens and resistance continues, it escalates again. Grabbing at an officer's weapon (by instinct/reflex or not) is not going to end well. That's a given.

From the story as is, this kid did everything he could to escalate from a simple warning to resisting arrest (as I've learned, this charge applies even when not being arrested).

Youthful rebellion is one thing. Failing to comply with a very reasonable request to get out of the road until you're in a physical confrontation with police is something else entirely.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:42 pm

Moliere wrote:
Rip wrote:No matter the offense or even lack of one when you physically resist law enforcement you should expect that kind of response.
Can we agree that it's nearly impossible to not physically resist when someone is hitting you with a baton?

But the video starts there. I am pretty confident that he was trying to resist well before the officer even took out a baton. When a cop tells you to halt and you don't he will try to apprehend you. Even if you have done nothing wrong you must comply with a lawful order from a law enforcement official.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:44 pm

Moliere wrote:He was JAYWALKING! At best the cop should tell him to stop jaywalking. It's a danger to the pedestrian and the cars. Have a nice day. Why is it escalating to batons and 9 cops? The kid looked scared of getting hit again. It seems pretty natural to grab the baton to avoid more strikes.

What would you have them do when the order to stop jaywalking or to stop and discuss the issue with an officer is disregarded. You can't have people ignoring orders and disrespecting the authority of law enforcement.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:49 pm

Unless it's an unlawful arrest, but that's not likely the case here.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:58 pm

Rip wrote:
Moliere wrote:He was JAYWALKING! At best the cop should tell him to stop jaywalking. It's a danger to the pedestrian and the cars. Have a nice day. Why is it escalating to batons and 9 cops? The kid looked scared of getting hit again. It seems pretty natural to grab the baton to avoid more strikes.
What would you have them do when the order to stop jaywalking or to stop and discuss the issue with an officer is disregarded. You can't have people ignoring orders and disrespecting the authority of law enforcement.

Ask Mike Huckabee about that.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:59 pm

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:19 pm

From the perspective of a teacher, (dealing with asshole teenagers and only the authority the students see fit to allow), you let the kid walk in traffic record it and call for backup. When a bus starts honking at him and people turn on the kid, then act.
I could escalate every stupid teenager shenanigan and would technically be right in doing so, but I'd get nothing actually useful done and be labeled an asshole. Just like this cop.

Jay walking laws are for keeping pedestrians from being run over and slowing traffic. The kid wasn't run over, but is now a criminal, beaten, and traffic is stopped. Not to mention the PR fiasco.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:31 pm

A cop can't just ignore a kid walking in traffic. You don't wait until someone gets hit or gets in a wreck. He just tells him to move. Cops do it a thousand times a day, and can't call for backup every time somebody is jaywalking. There aren't enough cops for that.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:40 pm

Yep, in fact if he would have saw it and didn't say something and the kid got ran over 2 minutes later the family could/would have sued the city and won.

Cops aren't allowed the luxury of seeing someone do something dangerous and just observing/recording it. They are duty bound to stop it.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:43 pm

There's a big difference between a teacher taking the path of least resistance and a cop letting someone ignore a lawful order because, hey, he's not hurting anyone.

The kid's a criminal because he decided to be one. He's not a criminal for jaywalking, he's a criminal for ignoring a lawful order from a member of law enforcement and resisting until escalation was unavoidable. Well, outside of your "just let it go, it's not worth it" suggestion.

The idea that it's ok to just let the dude block a bus lane until a bus comes along and honks at him or even crushes him, is not acceptable. This is not a kid getting hassled by the man as he loiters around. This is a guy in the middle of the street who refuses to get out of it.

I'm sorry it ended the way it did, I really am, but there has to be limits.

I'm actually pro-civil disobedience, but not over self entitlement.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:10 pm

Thailand gets interesting:

Thailand's traffic policemen will get money in return for refusing bribes, police said on Thursday, part of the junta's efforts to combat what it has called an ingrained culture of corruption within the force...

...Thai police salaries start at about 6,000 baht ($185) a month, according to 2013 data, well below the national average.

For motorists in Bangkok, where traffic snarl-ups are among the world's worst, slipping a policeman a banknote or two when stopped for a minor traffic offense is not uncommon. But motorists might soon find their offers being turned down.

"We want to change perceptions and practices and to reward those who show that they are clean," said Adul.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:16 pm

GreenGoo wrote:From the story as is, this kid did everything he could to escalate from a simple warning to resisting arrest (as I've learned, this charge applies even when not being arrested).

Youthful rebellion is one thing. Failing to comply with a very reasonable request to get out of the road until you're in a physical confrontation with police is something else entirely.

Unfortunately, this reaction has only been increasing. I have heard many officers are browbeaten by bystanders as they handle routine police business, and that's why so many react poorly to being filmed. Cops aren't stupid -- they know getting singled out becomes dangerous when there isn't enough backup. I'm with Rip on this issue.

Jaywalking is harmless because you look both ways and get across the street. There's a temporary risk that ends once you get across. Letting the kid walk in traffic is a safety hazard for everyone.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:09 am

So what you guys are saying, is cops never ignore, speeding, registration, illegal lane changes, Jay walking, drag racing, etc

I work with cops on a daily basis and they use discretion. But you guys are right I'm sure. Not accosting the kid means a bus would have just run him over without seeing him for the quarter mile as it approached.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:18 am

Cops ignore plenty of things. That doesn't mean they should always ignore it.

I would be very happy if there was more enforcement in Chicago, but they have their hands full already and the courts/jails are full. But that doesn't mean the public should blame them when actually trying to do their job. Or the result will be more "do nothing" cops and more lawlessness.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:01 am

As someone whose job involves driving around downtown, I wish the police would enforce the laws more strenuously. Around here, people just wander out into the street without regard to traffic, turn left from the right hand lane and vice versa, go the wrong way on one-way streets, park in the middle of the road, etc etc. These are all things I see daily.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:07 am

Combustible Lemur wrote:So what you guys are saying, is cops never ignore, speeding, registration, illegal lane changes, Jay walking, drag racing, etc

I work with cops on a daily basis and they use discretion. But you guys are right I'm sure. Not accosting the kid means a bus would have just run him over without seeing him for the quarter mile as it approached.

I'm saying they should not and if they do they are exposing themselves and whatever authority they work for to a law suit. Failure to enforce the law is about as blatant a violation as you get.

Now they have some latitude as to whether to actually arrest the person for what they are doing but if they are doing something dangerous they are required to bring it to a halt.

Such as if the kid would have just gotten out of the street there wouldn't have been an incident. I would suggest that even calling the cop a name wouldn't have gotten him arrested. But by remaining a danger to the public he left the cop no choice. He might as well have been tossing a knife in the air and catching it.

Part of the problem is that people just don't realize how dangerous walking in the street like that is. Not just for you but everyone near you.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:35 am

Rip wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:So what you guys are saying, is cops never ignore, speeding, registration, illegal lane changes, Jay walking, drag racing, etc

I work with cops on a daily basis and they use discretion. But you guys are right I'm sure. Not accosting the kid means a bus would have just run him over without seeing him for the quarter mile as it approached.

I'm saying they should not and if they do they are exposing themselves and whatever authority they work for to a law suit. Failure to enforce the law is about as blatant a violation as you get.

they have some latitude as to whether to actually arrest the person for what they are doing but if they are doing something dangerous they are required to bring it to a halt.

Such as if the kid would have just gotten out of the street there wouldn't have been an incident. I would suggest that even calling the cop a name wouldn't have gotten him arrested. But by remaining a danger to the public he left the cop no choice. He might as well have been tossing a knife in the air and catching it.

Part of the problem is that people just don't realize how dangerous walking in the street like that is. Not just for you but everyone near you.

Just weird,
By your logic, there would be hundreds of tickets written on my campus on a daily basis.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:03 am

Nobody ever said college students were bright. And we're talking about streets with real traffic that aren't patrolled by campus cops.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:09 am

Even on campus.

An increase in pedestrian-related accidents last year and earlier this year forced Gainesville Police to step its enforcement efforts up — starting with jaywalking tickets.
Accidents in late 2012 and early 2013 caused GPD to send officers to several different locations specifically looking for pedestrian violations. One of those locations includes West University Avenue, where many students have received $52.50 jaywalking tickets.
GPD spokesman Officer Ben Tobias said running the traffic safety initiative is part of a grant-funded program.
GPD receives about $30,000 each year from the Florida Department of Transportation to prevent pedestrian and vehicle violations, he said.
Tobias said that because the Department of Transportation gives GPD money to conduct the intiative, it has the funds to send officers looking for violations about twice a month.
Michelle Tulande, a 20-year-old UF telecommunication junior, was standing at a median after crossing the street near UF when an officer stopped her.
“A cop flashed his lights, and his siren went off, but I thought he was just pulling a car over,” Tulande said. “I think it is effective in the sense that I won’t ever jaywalk on University again.”

http://www.alligator.org/news/local/art ... 963f4.html

I know here in Lafayette at UL the have crosswalks that stop the traffic and allow students to cross. You see one every now and then cut across but I also know that give out a crapload of tickets for it. This isn't even that big of city.

“Jaywalking” is the new word on the street — or boulevard — at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette.

A stroll down St. Mary Boulevard is all it takes to hear the students abuzz about the word, which denotes a pedestrian crossing an intersection in an illegal manner.

That’s because university police recently have been issuing tickets instead of warnings to pedestrians who cross St. Mary illegally.

“It’s a safety measure,” said Sgt. Billy Abrams, spokesman for the UL Police Department.

“And of course people are ranting and everything, but we do get complaints about pedestrians from cyclists as well as motorists. It’s a revolving cycle.”

The ticketing began this week as a result of the bike lane installation on St. Mary Boulevard.

Police have also been issuing citations to bicyclists and motorists who fail to follow the rules of the road.

The tickets can be costly.

A judge sets the fine, and a pedestrian who gets a jaywalking ticket must also pay court costs.

“I think it comes in around $240, $250 or so,” Abrams said.

http://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news ... z/8615271/

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:36 am

Combustible Lemur wrote:So what you guys are saying, is cops never ignore, speeding, registration, illegal lane changes, Jay walking, drag racing, etc

I work with cops on a daily basis and they use discretion. But you guys are right I'm sure. Not accosting the kid means a bus would have just run him over without seeing him for the quarter mile as it approached.

Could you please stop making me agree with Rip? That's not a position I enjoy being in.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:37 pm

I think you guys misunderstand me. If the cops are doing their jobs but there is a PR problem, make adjustments to the way you handle conflict. If the cop is on site, the kid is being an asshole, and people are watching, escalating the situation to force immediately reinforces the publicity problem and rallies the hecklers, much like the angry woman In the video. The cop could have directed traffic. Or just followed the kid. Engaged the bystanders. I don't know those cops protocols. But ours use descalating procedures all the time. Sure kids still get arrested, maced, etc. But generally our campus police have a positive feedback on campus even from the kids. At it hasn't always been that way.

Zurai · Post by **Zurai** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:11 pm

The cop could have directed traffic. Or just followed the kid.

So this asshole self-entitled kid should just be allowed to shut down a lane of traffic? He says "No, fuck you, I don't have to listen to you" and the cop just shrugs and lets him disrupt dozens or hundreds of other people by breaking the law?

As I understand it, he didn't go straight to violence. First he asked the kid to move out of the street, then he approached the kid to stop him and talk to him, then the kid reacted violently and the officer had to react accordingly.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:17 pm

Do you have any idea how often cops handle piddly little shit every day? If they shut down roads and called in a PR crew every time somebody told them 'no', they'd never get anything done - and would run through their annual budget in a month. Cops can't spend an hour on a kid jaywalking. 99 out of 100 times, they say to get out of the street, the kid gets out of the street, and no more than ten seconds is devoted to the problem.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:27 pm

I'm with CL. And I don't have a problem with the cop himself - he is working inside a system that trains that response. He was very restrained in my opinion - he was just doing his job professionally. But it is a system that has a negative feedback loop. Every time one of these incidents occurs - even if they are dead to rights - the police have lost a battle. Community relations get worse...people has less respect for the police...the police face more resistance over minor things...and the cycle repeats. In a world where everyone has a camera in their pocket the police need to re-think how they are seen.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:19 pm

Police release body cam footage of Prairie View councilman being tased

Comply or be tased.

We're getting a new look at the take-down of Prairie View City Councilman Jonathan Miller. He was tased by officers and accused of resisting arrest Thursday night.

The police department released new video from the body cameras of the two officers involved.

In the video, you can hear the officers yell, "Put your hands behind your back. Put your hands behind your back! Quit resisting and put your hands behind your back."

The female officer, Officer Goodie then says, "OK he's gonna have to taser you, you're not doing like you're supposed to."

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:53 pm

As a counterpoint - Cops exonerated by body cam footage.

Police came to visit Theodore Johnson's Cleveland residence after his wife claimed he threatened to kill her. The man had already shot one officer, striking the chest of a patrolman David Muniz's ballistic vest. "I know you shot me, but I'm not going to shoot you," Muniz tells the 64-year-old Johnson, according to police body cam footage taken at the scene.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:13 pm

Wow, nerves of steel.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:35 pm

Not to mention a trauma plate of steel.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:29 pm

I always find it amazing that a person can be charged with resisting arrest but nothing else.
My haid just assplodes over the concept.