Brexit

[Max Peck]

Corbyn office 'sabotaged' EU Remain campaign - sources

The prime minister's resigned. No-one knows who the next occupant of Number 10 will be.

And today, some of the most senior figures in the Labour Party are trying to push their leader out too. There have been concerns about Jeremy Corbyn's performance for months and months. But it was his role, or lack of role, in the campaign to keep the UK in the EU, and his sacking of Hilary Benn in the middle of the night, that has given members of the shadow cabinet the final reasons to quit. Several have already gone, as many as half will be gone by the end of the day, I understand.

And documents passed to the BBC suggest Jeremy Corbyn's office sought to delay and water down the Labour Remain campaign. Sources suggest that they are evidence of "deliberate sabotage".

One email from the leader's office suggests that Mr Corbyn's director of strategy and communications, Seumas Milne, was behind Mr Corbyn's reluctance to take a prominent role in Labour's campaign to keep the UK in the EU. One email, discussing one of the leader's speeches, said it was because of the "hand of Seumas. If he can't kill it, he will water it down so much to hope nobody notices it".

A series of messages dating back to December seen by the BBC shows correspondence between the party leader's office, the Labour Remain campaign and Labour HQ, discussing the European campaign. It shows how a sentence talking about immigration was removed on one occasion and how Mr Milne refused to sign off a letter signed by 200 MPs after it had already been approved.

The documents show concern in Labour HQ and the Labour Remain campaign about Mr Corbyn's commitment to the campaign - one email says "what is going on here?". Another email from Labour Remain sources to the leader's office complains "there is no EU content here - we agreed to have Europe content in it". Sources say they show the leader's office was reluctant to give full support to the EU campaign and how difficult it was to get Mr Corbyn to take a prominent role.

[LawBeefaroni]

Does liking a poem imply acceptance of the authors political ideology? Does that work for music as well. If I like a Michael Jackson song must it infer I approve of abusing little boys?

Take your strawman army and use it to reinforce the EU army, they will need it.

When you select a poem that espouses the author's political views to make a political point in a political discussion, yes it does imply an acceptance of his ideology. Obviously.

To use your analogy, it would be like quoting a Michael Jackson song with pedophilic innuendo during a discussion about sexual abuse of children.

There was nothing anti-semitic about the poem nor my ideology so your analogy fails to hold water.

Not only that it implies everyone who has ever used a Hitler quote to enforce a point is a Nazi or Stalin a Communist or Marx a Marxist. If I use a Mohamed quote will I become a Muslim?


Who are you, McCarthyroni?

Don't be intentionally obtuse.

Kurth already covered it.

"The Secret People" was written in 1908, when Chesterton was 33 or 34, a popular and modestly successful writer living with his wife in London.

Here Chesterton is venting his dislike of modernity, as embodied in Edwardian England. You can argue that there is a contradiction here. Chesterton is enlisting the common people of England in support of his point of view; yet the English people of that time were rather keen on modernizing reforms.

[Max Peck]

To Brexit or Regrexit? A dis-United Kingdom ponders turmoil of EU divorce

The law provisioning an EU member country's exit from the union is Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that is effectively the EU's constitution. It has never been invoked before. Before the vote, Cameron had said Article 50 would be triggered straight away if Britain voted to leave. Over the weekend, several EU officials also said the UK needed to formally split right away - possibly at a Tuesday EU meeting. But officials of the Leave campaign - including former London mayor Boris Johnson - are stepping on the brakes. They say they want to negotiate Britain's post-Brexit relationship with the EU before formally pulling the trigger to divorce. European officials and observers say such a deal is unlikely, especially considering the thorny issues involved. For example, it is unlikely that the EU would grant Britain access to the single market - key to allowing Britain trade goods and services in the EU - without London accepting the free movement of EU workers. But the biggest issue for those who voted to leave the bloc was limits on immigration - something the Leave campaigners promised.

So it appears that the Brexiteers didn't actually have a realistic plan for the eventuality that they might win. They want to cut a deal before pulling the trigger, but the EU won't negotiate anything until Article 50 is invoked.

[Kraken]

This crossed my facebook feed today. Sorry it's a graphic instead of text.



Seems legit.

[Defiant]

Well, that's an interesting spin. Emphasis on the spin.

[Max Peck]

Yeah, I saw that item being passed along on a British journalist's twitter feed and almost posted it here earlier today. I don't know who the actual author is, but I'm picking up a distinct whiff of desperation and/or wishful thinking. #Regrexit

[Unagi]

Not many people get to shoot themselves in the head (unknowingly with a blank), and get to re-think their choice.

Be cool, really, if some smart people can make this mess not happen somehow.

[em2nought]

This crossed my facebook feed today. Sorry it's a graphic instead of text.



Seems legit.

It's good whoever came up with that wasn't tasked with defeating the Axis in WW2.

[Grifman]

This crossed my facebook feed today. Sorry it's a graphic instead of text.



Seems legit.

I don't think this is going to stop it as the writer hopes but I think everything else is spot on. Cameron's resignation was a brilliant move. Let those that sought the exit be the ones that have to implement it. Let them take the blame for the inevitable problems this is going to create. They're the ones the broke Humpty Dumpty, let them be responsible for putting him back together again.

[Defiant]

Not many people get to shoot themselves in the head (unknowingly with a blank), and get to re-think their choice.

I would think about 5/6th of people who play Russian Roulette do.

[Max Peck]

It turns out that it is a reader comment from a Guardian article.

[Defiant]

[Reemul]

Yep the thing I am enjoying (not) the most is all the social media posts as if they are something more than the odd person posting stuff that really means anything.

We get a post of 2 people saying they regret voting out and suddenly 1 million people regret it. We get a rumour here and a Chinese whisper there and social media, forums and even some papers are desperately using it to prop up their slant on it.

It really smacks of desperation on a large scale. I just wonder if the vote had been remain whether the same would have happened.

[RunningMn9]

It goes beyond a post here and a comment there though. It's the fact that the next morning one of the leading searches in the UK was "what is the EU?". It's the fact that the areas where the Leave vote was strongest are the areas that benefit most from aid from the EU (and will thus be hit hardest by exiting the EU). It's not that I believe that millions regret it. It's that it seems clear that millions will regret it because they voted based on irrational fear rather than an understanding of what they were voting for.

That's what you get when you get populism.

[hepcat]

This crossed my facebook feed today. Sorry it's a graphic instead of text.



Seems legit.

It's good whoever came up with that wasn't tasked with defeating the Axis in WW2.

More so because they probably werent even born yet.

[Chrisoc13]

It goes beyond a post here and a comment there though. It's the fact that the next morning one of the leading searches in the UK was "what is the EU?". It's the fact that the areas where the Leave vote was strongest are the areas that benefit most from aid from the EU (and will thus be hit hardest by exiting the EU). It's not that I believe that millions regret it. It's that it seems clear that millions will regret it because they voted based on irrational fear rather than an understanding of what they were voting for.

That's what you get when you get populism.

Just to be fair that search was not the most common search, but rather the most common search regarding the EU. Which I think is an important distinction. People continue to say it was the most common search when in fact it was reported as the most common search regarding the EU.

[hepcat]

Once again, John Oliver nails it.

Is it wrong that I laughed out loud at this part?

"David Cameron announced he would be stepping down in the wake of the vote, which should make me happy, but in this situation, it doesn't," he said. "It's like catching an ice cream cone out of the air because a child was hit by a car. I mean, I'll eat it, I'll eat it -- but it's tainted somehow."

[Defiant]

Faisal Islam, Sky News Journalist, Says Pro-Brexit MP Told Him ‘Leave Campaign Don’t Have A Plan’

[tjg_marantz]

It goes beyond a post here and a comment there though. It's the fact that the next morning one of the leading searches in the UK was "what is the EU?". It's the fact that the areas where the Leave vote was strongest are the areas that benefit most from aid from the EU (and will thus be hit hardest by exiting the EU). It's not that I believe that millions regret it. It's that it seems clear that millions will regret it because they voted based on irrational fear rather than an understanding of what they were voting for.

That's what you get when you get populism.

That leading search was actually only 1000 searches for it. It's been blown way out of proportion.

[Max Peck]

Faisal Islam, Sky News Journalist, Says Pro-Brexit MP Told Him ‘Leave Campaign Don’t Have A Plan’

There is no plan. The Leave campaign don't have a post-Brexit plan. Number 10 should have had a plan.

Number 10 did have a plan: "I'm out! You idiots are on your own."

[cheeba]

What many here obviously don't understand: The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened.

[Isgrimnur]

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Representative democracy is no great best, either.

[El Guapo]

What many here obviously don't understand: The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened.

It's simultaneously true that it would be crazy for Britain to leave the EU, and at the same time that the EU is an incredibly and deeply flawed institution. So it's understandable to want to leave the EU, even though it's kind of crazy at the same time.

[GreenGoo]

What many here obviously don't understand: The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened.

Well, for 51.9% of them anyway.

[Max Peck]

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened.

Reactions like this? I can't argue with that...

[RunningMn9]

What many here obviously don't understand.

Well, that or "what many here obviously don't agree with". The presumption that "disagreement" is simply a matter of not understanding is the complaint of the "Leaves", no?

Haven't we already been through this nonsense?

[LordMortis]

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened.

Reactions like this? I can't argue with that...

Are 51.9% of of the UK really like that?

[El Guapo]

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened.

Reactions like this? I can't argue with that...

Are 51.9% of of the UK really like that?

The short answer is no. However, the "Brexit" movement is tinged with at least some amount of racism, it's just a matter of how much (which is the subject of some dispute). Basically, one of the reasons given by Brexit movement for leaving the EU was that by doing so Britain could have greater control of its borders, and be better able to keep out unwanted immigrants. Naturally anyone in Britain who is inclined to be racist and/or xenophobic would be disproportionately receptive to that argument.

However, obviously one can be for restricting immigration without being a racist or a xenophobe, and there are also lots of other reasons to be for leaving the EU.

So, is 51.9% of the UK racist? No, definitely not. Is there an uncomfortable amount of racism in the UK (as in America and other countries)? Yes. And the Brexit dispute has brought a lot of that racism more clearly to the surface.

[hepcat]

To be fair, I don't think racism was the primary driver for this. Many politicians who were bucking for it used promises of more money and less trade restrictions to scare a lot of folks. Promises they're now having to backpedal from in many cases.

[LordMortis]

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened.

Reactions like this? I can't argue with that...

Are 51.9% of of the UK really like that?

The short answer is no. However, the "Brexit" movement is tinged with at least some amount of racism, it's just a matter of how much (which is the subject of some dispute). Basically, one of the reasons given by Brexit movement for leaving the EU was that by doing so Britain could have greater control of its borders, and be better able to keep out unwanted immigrants. Naturally anyone in Britain who is inclined to be racist and/or xenophobic would be disproportionately receptive to that argument.

However, obviously one can be for restricting immigration without being a racist or a xenophobe, and there are also lots of other reasons to be for leaving the EU.

So, is 51.9% of the UK racist? No, definitely not. Is there an uncomfortable amount of racism in the UK (as in America and other countries)? Yes. And the Brexit dispute has brought a lot of that racism more clearly to the surface.

That sort of validates cheeba frightening thought to me. Framing the discussion at everyone being a racist and every one being a old and stupid seems to be problematic. It scares me because we're watching a mirror of no small minority of Sanders and Trump supporters moving from quiet desperation to raging against the machine while we elect Clinton and the obstructionist Congress in office in the US.

[GreenGoo]

Are 51.9% of of the UK really like that?

I can't speak for all 51.9% of them, but I can say that the comments sections in UK articles makes the comments sections in US articles seem unflinchingly polite and politically correct in comparison.

In short, I'm more appalled by what British citizens are comfortable putting into writing than I am at what Americans are. Some of the most racist stuff I've ever had the displeasure of reading.

[Isgrimnur]

To be fair, I don't think racism was the primary driver for this. Many politicians who were bucking for it used promises of more money and less trade restrictions to scare a lot of folks. Promises they're now having to backpedal from in many cases.

CNN

Campaign promise #1: We'll give EU cash to the National Health Service

The official Vote Leave campaign claimed that membership in the EU cost the U.K. £350 million a week, "enough to build a brand new, fully staffed ... hospital every week."

The slogan was painted on the side of the campaign's bright red bus. Pro-Brexit politicians continued to make the claim, despite being repeatedly admonished by the independent statistics watchdog for misleading voters.

Iain Duncan Smith, a leading figure in Vote Leave, told the BBC that the campaign didn't say "all" of it would go to the NHS but "a significant amount of it" would.

Nigel Farage, leader of the U.K. Independence Party and who campaigned for Brexit said implying that money sent to the EU could be spent on the health service in the future was a mistake.

"No I can't [guarantee it], and I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes that I think the Leave campaign made," he said on British TV after the vote.
...
Campaign promise #2: We'll take control of the UK's borders

During the campaign, Brexiteers attacked the U.K. government for missing its target to cut net migration to tens of thousands (it was 333,000 last year), saying that only by leaving the EU could Britain control immigration.

Many voters say they backed Brexit because they expected immigration to fall.

Leave campaigner and lawmaker Nigel Evans told BBC radio that there had been "some misunderstanding" over the Leave campaign's position on reducing immigration.

When asked if the number of people coming into the country would fall significantly, Evans said that a new Australian-style points system for EU migrants meant the U.K. would be able to control immigration -- but he didn't say it would fall.
...
Campaign promise #3: The economy will be fine

The U.K. government and just about every independent forecaster, including the International Monetary Fund, said that a vote for Brexit would trigger financial and economic turmoil.
...
Consider this: Since the results of the vote became known early Friday, the pound has crashed 12% against the U.S. dollar to its lowest level in decades, U.K. bank stocks have collapsed, and growth forecasts for the British economy have been slashed.

Companies are putting investments on hold, and warning of lower profits. Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne said Monday the economy and government finances will suffer, but an emergency budget won't happen until a new prime minister is chosen in October.

Business says it can't wait that long. Banks are already thinking about moving staff out of London.

[RunningMn9]

Framing the discussion at everyone being a racist and every one being a old and stupid seems to be problematic.

Perhaps, but the problem is that when you have a candidate saying racist things, it isn't surprising that this candidate is going to attract racists. Does it mean that everyone that supports that candidate is racist? Maybe not - although certainly one might argue that most of the people that support that candidate are a helluva lot more accepting of racism than they should be.

And the issue isn't one necessarily of stupidity. It's of ignorance. It's of not understanding the implications and consequences of your decision, on any level.

So while you may be frightened by them raging against the machine, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't make people be less ignorant.

[cheeba]

I can't speak for all 51.9% of them, but I can say that the comments sections in UK articles makes the comments sections in US articles seem unflinchingly polite and politically correct in comparison.

In short, I'm more appalled by what British citizens are comfortable putting into writing than I am at what Americans are. Some of the most racist stuff I've ever had the displeasure of reading.

Comment sections... really? You're making judgements based on comment sections, which no one should ever read in the first place?

However, the "Brexit" movement is tinged with at least some amount of racism, it's just a matter of how much (which is the subject of some dispute).

In other words, it's the same racism that people here 8 years ago were certain would foil a Barack Obama bid for presidency. Later that same racism would all but guarantee an attempt on Barack Obama's life should he become the president. We're not sure how much racism is out there, but it's significant and those damn racists are to blame for something!

[Isgrimnur]

You can't force people be less ignorant.

FTFY. Making people less ignorant is called 'teaching'.

[El Guapo]

However, the "Brexit" movement is tinged with at least some amount of racism, it's just a matter of how much (which is the subject of some dispute).

In other words, it's the same racism that people here 8 years ago were certain would foil a Barack Obama bid for presidency. Later that same racism would all but guarantee an attempt on Barack Obama's life should he become the president. We're not sure how much racism is out there, but it's significant and those damn racists are to blame for something!

Not really sure what your point is here. All I'm saying is that there is a non-trivial amount of racism in the UK (as in most or all countries), and that racists logically are probably more on the Leave than the Remain side, as indicated by, among other things, basic logic (presumably someone who is racist and xenophobic is more likely to favor closed borders than someone who is not).

Which is the part that you disagree with?

[LordMortis]

Not really sure what your point is here. All I'm saying is that there is a non-trivial amount of racism in the UK (as in most or all countries), and that racists logically are probably more on the Leave than the Remain side, as indicated by, among other things, basic logic (presumably someone who is racist and xenophobic is more likely to favor closed borders than someone who is not).

Which is the part that you disagree with?

Now if we could get you out there to reframe the entire discussion. It only took OO 7 pages to get here and we're just a little bit less reactionary then social media.

[RunningMn9]

You can't force people be less ignorant.

FTFY. Making people less ignorant is called 'teaching'.

Sort of, in this case there are no teachers. They need to become less ignorant on their own, which is impossible because they don't believe they are ignorant.

Does anyone believe they are ignorant? I don't believe that I am but maybe I am wrong and I'm part of the problem?

[GreenGoo]

Comment sections... really? You're making judgements based on comment sections, which no one should ever read in the first place?

Yes, really. Why wouldn't I? It's not like they are likely to tell their foreign born doctor what they really think of them. You think comment sections are just creative writing exercises for bored students?

I'm not quantifying the level of racism in the general population, I'm saying that the vitriol in their racism exceeds the US's by an order of magnitude.

In other words, it's the same racism that people here 8 years ago were certain would foil a Barack Obama bid for presidency. Later that same racism would all but guarantee an attempt on Barack Obama's life should he become the president. We're not sure how much racism is out there, but it's significant and those damn racists are to blame for something!

This is gibberish.

[em2nought]

This crossed my facebook feed today. Sorry it's a graphic instead of text.



Seems legit.

It's good whoever came up with that wasn't tasked with defeating the Axis in WW2.

More so because they probably werent even born yet.

Proving my long held view that only about 10% of the citizens from most recent generations are useful, the rest are seriously broken cookies.