Now Wisconsin

[Kraken]

Haven't they recalled that guy yet?

[ichbinunique]

He also signed a bill that bars employees from collecting punitive damages from their employers based on discrimination, but I think that might be the same bill. So it looks like this doesn't just affect women but any minority who might have a discrimination case. I suppose you can still sue in federal court, but to me it just comes across as anti-labor when you deprive someone of legal recourse. http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolit ... 43915.html

I find it interesting to watch what a Republican-run state can do. It seems like Wisconsin has quite a bone to pick with it's workforce.

[stessier]

Haven't they recalled that guy yet?

I think the election is sometime in June.

[Combustible Lemur]

I land somewhere in the middle on unions and firing rights. But, if the conservatives who always bitch about dems being socialist want to see real socialist backlash, they just need to keep whittling away at workers rights.

sent from incredible'

[Rip]

Haven't they recalled that guy yet?

I think the election is sometime in June.

And it is looking like he will win!

[GreenGoo]

I find it interesting to watch what a Republican-run state can do. It seems like Wisconsin has quite a bone to pick with it's workforce.

Let them eat cake!

[Zarathud]

Cheesecake

[msduncan]

Interestingly enough, there have been complaints from Wisconsin democrats that President Obama didn't really weigh in or campaign enough for the challenger in this recall. Political experts are speculating that the President didn't want to risk a defeat in this race if he were to have thrown his weight behind it.

Unions are not happy at his lack of support -- but that doesn't really matter because they will vote for him in the general election anyway.

[LawBeefaroni]

This caught my eye for a second:

BELOIT, Wis.—A Wisconsin billionaire who is Gov. Scott Walker's largest campaign donor owed no state taxes in 2010 because of a change in her corporation's structure.

Then I read on:

ABC Supply's tax director Scott Bianchini tells the Journal Sentinel that Hendricks did not owe state taxes in 2010 because the firm changed its structure so the profits and the tax obligations stay with the company, not with Hendricks.

"Now ABC is paying taxes on its own," Bianchini said.

Ok, nothing to see here. It's a rigged system, we all know it, neither of them did anything untoward.


But then I caught sight of...this:

Recall the man, recall him now. He is under the influence of a banshee-wraith. For the love of God and Country, please...

[stessier]

It will be an interesting election. This state has a serious multiple personality disorder. Outside of cities, it is very conservative. Inside cities, it tends to be more liberal.

I just want it to be over so all the stupid polling calls stop.

[El Guapo]

It will be an interesting election. This state has a serious multiple personality disorder. Outside of cities, it is very conservative. Inside cities, it tends to be more liberal.

Pretty sure that's true in a lot of states. Recalls James Carville's famous description of Pennsylvania as Philadelphia in the East, Pittsburgh in the West, and Alabama in between.

[Holman]

It will be an interesting election. This state has a serious multiple personality disorder. Outside of cities, it is very conservative. Inside cities, it tends to be more liberal.

Pretty sure that's true in a lot of states. Recalls James Carville's famous description of Pennsylvania as Philadelphia in the East, Pittsburgh in the West, and Alabama in between.

The term used here is "Pennsyltucky."

[stessier]

Vote is today for those playing at home. It is supposed to be quite close. We shall see.

[Rip]

Walker by more than 5% is my prediction.

[AWS260]

Vote is today for those playing at home. It is supposed to be quite close. We shall see.

Close, but not that uncertain.

Although the contest is fairly close, polls of gubernatorial races are ordinarily quite reliable in the late stages of a race. We have not officially released a forecast for the race, but Mr. Walker’s lead of about six points would translate into almost a 95 percent chance of victory if we used the same formula we did to evaluate gubernatorial races in 2010, which derives its estimates from the historical accuracy of gubernatorial polls over the past 15 years.

[msduncan]

I'm going with Walker by 4 to 5%

[GreenGoo]

I'll be interested to see if Wisconsin experiences economic recovery beyond how other states with similar attributes recover.

Will make for an interesting experiment. Not sure how long would be long enough for testing purposes. Before the labour force riots of 2015, surely.

[stessier]

With 2% reporting, it is 55-45 for Walker.

In my polling place, I was the 987th person. We have 11 Wards in a town of 16k, so that seems like pretty decent turnout if it is representative of the whole city.

Edit: 57-42 with 4% reporting (total of 100k votes)

[Holman]

I read that the advertising money was something like 20:1 in favor of Walker (much of Koch and company). Did it feel that way in Wisconsin?

[Rip]

Walker WINS!

[Mr. Fed]

YOUR TEARS ARE DELICIOUS.

I'm not any fan of Walker in the abstract. Or in the specific. But any victory over the public employee unions is a good thing, as far as I am concerned.

[Isgrimnur]

But any victory over the public employee unions is a good thing, as far as I am concerned.

I would like to know more about that statement.

[Mr. Fed]

But any victory over the public employee unions is a good thing, as far as I am concerned.

I would like to know more about that statement.

They cripple my state, amongst other states. When they "bargain" with the government it's like watching someone do real estate deals with his dog -- "Hey, Fido, buy some swampland." And as for other areas of law -- well, the prison guards union in my state pours money into every campaign to toughen criminal laws and against any campaign to make criminal laws more reasonable (for instance, rational modifications to "three strikes") so they can keep overfilling the prisons, maintaining job security and overtime.

[Mr. Fed]

Democratic Underground thread, going roughly the way a Free Republic thread would have gone if Walker had lost:

Stupid people vote for stupid politicians

And from "Rosa Luxemborg"

The media is at it again


we must do something about the media

[Isgrimnur]

So it's the reality of your observations rather than any ideological differences with what I would term the "rational goals" that an organization should be after...?

[Mr. Fed]

So it's the reality of your observations rather than any ideological differences with what I would term the "rational goals" that an organization should be after...?

I don't think I am a stupid man. But I've read that several times, and I don't follow it.

[silverjon]

A union fighting for dental plans and cost-of-living pay increases is pursuing rational goals, and presumably Mr. Fed would not take ideological issue with such or wish them ill.

[Mr. Fed]

A union fighting for dental plans and cost-of-living pay increases is pursuing rational goals, and presumably Mr. Fed would not take ideological issue with such or wish them ill.

Pigs get fed. Hogs get slaughtered.

[Isgrimnur]

You're not against the idea of a union fighting to protect the workers from employer abuses, but you are against unions abusing what power they have to become just as bad as the people they were created to fight, if not worse?

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely?

[Mr. Fed]

You're not against the idea of a union fighting to protect the workers from employer abuses, but you are against unions abusing what power they have to become just as bad as the people they were created to fight, if not worse?

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely?

When the California prison guards union poured millions of dollars into a campaign to defeat a ballot measure that would have modified our three-strikes law -- so that you couldn't go to prison for 25 years if your third strike was a petty crime, like stealing a slice of pizza or a couple of videotapes -- what corporate evil were they fighting?

When California educators get double-dip pensions, are they striking a blow against the Koch brothers?

When the Capistrano school district spends 85% of its budget on pensions and salaries, are they fighting, I don't know, Exxon or United Fruit or something?

When teachers' unions create systems -- with the help of their lackeys -- where it takes years to fire teachers for misconduct, are they fighting the Citizens United decision?

[Zarathud]

And you think concentrating the power to break unions and contracts in a heavy handed governor who created the very budgetary crisis that he fought with extreme measures to crush his political enemies is the solution? Or that Wisconsin democracy is served by the millions of dollars from out-of-state to support Governor Walker? And that doesn't risk its own form of corruption?

Walker outraised his opponent by an almost 8-1 ratio, collecting $30.5 million to Barrett's $4 million. Roughly two-thirds of Walker's contributions came from out of state, the Center for Public Integrity reported, while only a quarter of Barrett's funds originated from outside Wisconsin.

Unions may suck in many ways, but Wisconsin can now hail its out-of-state Corporate Overlords who no longer need to worry about labor opposition.

[Combustible Lemur]

And you think concentrating the power to break unions and contracts in a heavy handed governor who created the very budgetary crisis that he fought with extreme measures to crush his political enemies is the solution? Or that Wisconsin democracy is served by the millions of dollars from out-of-state to support Governor Walker? And that doesn't risk its own form of corruption?

Walker outraised his opponent by an almost 8-1 ratio, collecting $30.5 million to Barrett's $4 million. Roughly two-thirds of Walker's contributions came from out of state, the Center for Public Integrity reported, while only a quarter of Barrett's funds originated from outside Wisconsin.

Unions may suck in many ways, but Wisconsin can now hail its out-of-state Corporate Overlords who no longer need to worry about labor opposition.

This, I cant imagine living in a state where I am forced to join a union, I also abhor living in a country with the political contribution structure we use. Fortunately, the reps with their stances on social liberties made the choice easy.
And yes I am sorely aware of the timespace lottery I won being birthed with these problems in the first place.


......child soldiers

[Pyperkub]

You're not against the idea of a union fighting to protect the workers from employer abuses, but you are against unions abusing what power they have to become just as bad as the people they were created to fight, if not worse?

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely?

When the California prison guards union poured millions of dollars into a campaign to defeat a ballot measure that would have modified our three-strikes law -- so that you couldn't go to prison for 25 years if your third strike was a petty crime, like stealing a slice of pizza or a couple of videotapes -- what corporate evil were they fighting?

Yep - this is bullshit. Also happens all the time with corporate and/or chamber of commerce spending against tax bills. Or lets just take a look at Arizona's Private Prisons and who is trying to get more illegals imprisoned in Arizona? Additionally, are you saying that Union members' cash isn't protected speech? Or that they shouldn't be able to advocate for their interests? (yeah, my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek there )

When California educators get double-dip pensions, are they striking a blow against the Koch brothers?

Linky? I know that in the CSU you can retire and then get hired back at a half-time position at up to 1024 hours/yr, which is kind of double-dipping, but I don't think the rehired annuitant positions are eligible for pensions. That's the only double-dipping I'm aware of, but I'm interested in what you're talking about.

When the Capistrano school district spends 85% of its budget on pensions and salaries, are they fighting, I don't know, Exxon or United Fruit or something?

Every school district spends more than 85% of its budget on personnel, or better be doing so or more, IMHO. In my CSU we're at about 90%.

Now, what I'll also expect is that health care costs are included here, and those are the real devil that is breaking the bank, but it gets lumped into 'pensions', I'd expect.

When teachers' unions create systems -- with the help of their lackeys -- where it takes years to fire teachers for misconduct, are they fighting the Citizens United decision?

Nope, but to a certain degree they are fighting to restrict the influence of radical politics on education (e.g. Creationism in Kansas and Tennessee). How'd you like to be a biology teacher there?

Ultimately, I do believe that union reform is needed, but what Walker did in Wisconsin was way beyond the pale, and was more of a Republican wet dream than an effort to rationally reform Public Sector Unions.

As to reforms I'd like to see:

1. OT doesn't count towards a pension - your base salary is your pay for Pension calculations. Period. This, IMHO, is the biggest public union employee pension problem in my mind. The OT that goes into Public Safety workers and their pensions is crazy and needs to be corralled.

2. Non-Union pensions are a significant drain as well - if you look at the largest pension payouts in CA, they are either Politicians (non-union, but behave like one here), Non-Union managers, or Public Safety workers that have spiked their pension via OT (addressed in Pt. 1).

3. F-ing Fix Health Care costs!!! This is what drove GM bankrupt with their Unions, and is what drives the skyrocketing public debt obligations nationwide. An annuity's cost is pretty well established, it's the damned health care cost curve that is killing everything. This (fixing health care) is complicated, but the fact of the matter is that the current system in the US is extremely broken and needs fixing.

[stessier]

I read that the advertising money was something like 20:1 in favor of Walker (much of Koch and company). Did it feel that way in Wisconsin?

Not in my neck of the woods. It was about 50/50 here. On the other hand, the robo calls were very heavy Walker at the end and Barrett maybe a month ago.

[GreenGoo]

The reporting I've been reading is the spending was something like 3 to 1, with unlimited super pac spending being the difference between the two.

Fed not withstanding, I think government employees have been unreasonably villified. I think keeping Walker around will allow people to realize this over time. At least I hope. Collective bargaining is one of the few tools employees have to apply pressure on their employers. Removing it seems anti-land of the free. Shrug.

I don't think America is ready for a serious reduction or removal of the power of the union, and I don't think it will take long before they become vital again, rather than just important.

I'm not against taking a close look at the employment agreements of civil employees. I'm just not happy to have one of the tools used to negotiate those agreements pulled out from under one side by the negotiators on the other side.

It has not been my experience that collective bargaining is the all powerful nuke in the room when the two sides negotiate, as it seems to have been for Fed. My union and employer often take years to come to an agreement, with both sides negotiating hard to protect their interests, leaving myself and others without an employee agreement while they work it out.

I don't like making the working man more vulnerable. I look forward to seeing what happens in Wisconsin over the next decade or so.

[msduncan]

Interestingly enough, Walker ran saying he was going to do something and then he did it. Perhaps voters, along with being fed up with public sector unions, rewarded a politician that delivered on something he said he would do if elected.

[GreenGoo]

Interestingly enough, Walker ran saying he was going to do something and then he did it. Perhaps voters, along with being fed up with public sector unions, rewarded a politician that delivered on something he said he would do if elected.

No, he said he would do one thing, then did something else. Taking collective bargaining off the table was never mentioned until he was in office. That you agree with what he did doesn't change that, although I'm not going to argue he's doing something his constituents don't like. More than 1/2 of the voters in Wisconsin have decided they want him. I look forward to seeing how that plays out down the line.

edit: That I know even this little bit about Wisconsin politics is annoying. I do want to see how bold politicians get in other states, and how that works out. Should be worth watching.

[stessier]

That I know even this little bit about Wisconsin politics is annoying.

I see what you did there.

Yeah, Baby.

[PLW]

Let's not get public sector unions and private sector unions mixed up. I understand the rationale for private-sector unions-- in some industries, especially concentrated industries, there are a handful of people who buy specialized labor and they have incentives to (collude to) pay wages below what the free market would deliver. This low price leads to inefficiently little labor supplied, too low production (which hurts consumers), and a very uneven distribution of revenues (which if we care about these things, we might judge to be unfair). The profit motive is what drives this state of affairs, and it can make sense to balance the market power of the firm (i.e., they set prices in the labor market) with some market power on the side of workers (unions).

In the public sector, however, this justification doesn't quite fly. The incentives of public managers are quite different from the incentives of private managers, and the maximization of net revenues (profits) is really only a very small part of it. They are beholden to the citizens, who are both consumers and residual claimants on profits (or residual payers on losses.. more likely), so take both effects into account, having little incentive to push wages below market (at least.. much less incentive than a private manager does). After all, if they save a dollar in wage bills, they don't get to put it in their pocket and go home. Unlike the private-sector case, there is little justification for injecting market power on the side of labor... what exactly are you balancing off against? Furthermore, the indirect risk of organized labor "capturing" the manager and leading to further distortions is real, in a way that it rarely is in the private sector (I would say never.. but sometimes the government gets involved there, too, and puts heat on management: Boeing, United, GM).

I'm open to an argument, but I've never seen it demonstrated anywhere that public sector unions are a social good. The theoretical case is fuzzy, and the empirical case doesn't exist at all (as far as I know). I actually think this is a really interesting area that is ripe for future research (I could even do some!) I'd love to even hear some anecdotes.

[Exodor]

So public sector unions are bad because they're too effective at getting benefits for those they represent?

And the problem lies with effective unions rather than with the politicians that cave to their demands?

I thought unions were evil because they are corrupt institutions that mostly benefit those in power in the union rather than dues-paying members.